Saved to what end?

[`mud]

I think this thread is verring to the 'sin' factor of fear of "god",
rather than exploring the afterlife, or am I missing something here ?
Oh well, with that, why do people believe in the afterlife, heaven and hell ?
~
There are those that believe in an afterlife of sorts, for ever and ever,
until the end of forever.
Maybe they don't really believe in what that previous sentence says,
what happens on the day after forever ?
Personally I find it humorous to think that there is a forever for anyone's soul.
I think it's the ego of one's own importance that causes this kind of thinking.
On that day, the day after forever, I hope that there are people that remember me,
persisting in that day after forever, remembering me into another forever.
~
But well, I can only wish for the best, I'll settle for a small memory of me,
held by another in the morrow.
~
'mud

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

do you like life on earth ?

Yes, I do!

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Our initial relationship with God was severed, consequently we were banished from his sight never to know him which is Hell.

Christ is the means to restore that relationship, and by restoring that relationship we are justified before God and can be made worthy of knowing him in Heaven. We are saved from our spiritual perdition which is inevitable without God.

By your definition I'm in hell, yet I'm doing just fine without god. You say christ is the means to restore a relationship? How, by what means? Is he like a wingman at a bar? Is he going to talk god into giving me an invite to the party in the sky? Please explain your incredibly vague ramblings. I'm trying to understand here, not be told some BS fairy tale that I must just accept.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

That's because you hold a distorted view of original sin. We don't suffer accountability, we suffer the consequence of losing God's grace.

LOL, a distorted view of 'original sin.' That's like saying someone has a distorted view 'the force,' may it be with you.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

They knew perfectly well the obedience they owed to God, Eve states that explicitly. They chose the seductive lie the Serpent, which is a wonderful metaphor for the true nature of sin. The foundational lie of sin, is that there is happiness in the pursuit of one's own will and not that of God's.

So who are you going to believe, Eve of god? God states explicitly that AFTER eating the apple the man has the knowledge of good and evil, not before.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Saved from genetic extinction. Religion is the means by which moral people beat immoral people in evolutionary competition.

Wow, that would be the most ignorant statement I've heard in 2015 so far. It shows a complete ignorance of genetics, evolution, religion in general, and the tenants of christian salvation in particular. Please refrain from mindless dribble.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

We grow up. we get sick sometime terribly so even before we reach our prime, or have some other disability or infirmary. Once we reach our prime we do not stay there, we quickly (and it seems more so as we get older) wear down. Eventually, if we live long enough we start to look like a hunched over grasshopper barely able to move around..if things go well. After a few decades we die. Before death, for many they are left wondering what next? is there anything? Why would God allow us to have such a futile existence?

Salvation comes in two parts then. A reversal of the condition of futility. And a reversal of having our bigger life questions left unanswered or answered wrongly.

As far as getting saved, besides some legal matters to consider, there is the idea too that it is appropriate set standards as to who you want to spend your time with. Especially as family. Certainly you would not want to just pick anyone to live in the same home as you. God is the same. The 15th Psalm lists some qualities that God expects from his friends. We can be his friend, but we qualify by how we meet his reasonable standards - reasonable because anyone can qualify if they only wanted to.

So we are saved from time? From change? From growing old? In essence you are saying we are saved from our human experience. Or at least that we are saved from the lows. The idea of a futile existence has been bottled and sold, and you bought it? What is joy without despair? What is pleasure without pain?

I can only imagine this salvation is a mind-numbing nothingness.

Futility is only an issue for those not capable of living each moment, for those who are more concerned with tomorrow than today. It sounds to me like what you need saving from is from your failure to live live here and now to the fullest. If you fail to live to your full potential here and now, then how does that prepare us for hereafter?

Then you talk about 'reasonable standards' to be this guys friend? So he made me, in his image, but I fail to live up to his standards, unless...now I'm lost. How do I live up to his standards to be his friend? He would not want to pick just anyone to live in his house? Yet i can somehow live up to his standard..so he would pick me...based on what? How does one live up to this 'reasonable standard.'

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Salvation is removal of ignorance. That is possible by providing more knowledge.

I agree with that, you are OK, but there is always a chance for improvement. You can always try to make yourself better. Others can perhaps help in that process.

That is a respectable view and I agree completely. Yet I don't think it really addresses my question. Do I NEED saving from a lack of knowledge? Is there a level of knowledge I must attain to be saved? Must I have complete (or even any certain) knowledge?

I understand the drive to understand, to reach for potential. But i fail to see how a positive affirmation of unconfirmed religious tenants moves us in that direction.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Humanity rebelled against God and is fallen, we are given over to choose sin and our own selfish desires. A person is to be saved from their own slavery to sin, their rebellion against God and eternal separation from Him. God came to earth to die for His people, to pay the debt that they owe Him because of their sin and rebellion. Those who trust in Him and accept Jesus as Lord will be delivered from their bondage to sin, from their captivity, no longer slaves but sons to live in God's household forever.


No one is worthy of salvation. We all deserve Hell. The "good" that you do does not save, for all have sinned and fallen short. Works can save no one, we do not "elevate" ourselves but it is God who does that. It is God's grace alone that saves us, those who believe and trust in what Jesus accomplished on the cross and accept Him as Lord.

So, man rebelled against god, therefore god decrees 'eternal separation' between himself and man, but then god comes to earth to hang out with man for a while and die for him...do you not see the 100% contradiction here? God has eternally separated himself from man, but god goes to earth and hangs out with man...

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Original sin is not so much a genetic defect which you pass on, it's a fundamental alteration of human nature itself. The very state of being human is to take on original sin. Baptism removes the stain of original sin insofar as it prevents a direct relationship with God, but the propensity towards sin remains.

You are scientifically incorrect here... human nature itself is 100% genetic. If baptism removes part of human nature (sin) it would have to modify our genetic makeup.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

I think this thread is verring to the 'sin' factor of fear of "god",
rather than exploring the afterlife, or am I missing something here ?
Oh well, with that, why do people believe in the afterlife, heaven and hell ?
~
There are those that believe in an afterlife of sorts, for ever and ever,
until the end of forever.
Maybe they don't really believe in what that previous sentence says,
what happens on the day after forever ?
Personally I find it humorous to think that there is a forever for anyone's soul.
I think it's the ego of one's own importance that causes this kind of thinking.
On that day, the day after forever, I hope that there are people that remember me,
persisting in that day after forever, remembering me into another forever.
~
But well, I can only wish for the best, I'll settle for a small memory of me,
held by another in the morrow.
~
'mud

This is a very interesting question in its own. Without a belief in hereafter, then the concept of universal justification is objectively flawed. I think there are very few who would disagree that not all scores are settled here and now, that everyone gets their just rewards in this world.

 

[mainliner]

Yes, I do!

what about cancer? Do u like life with cancer ?

 

[Kolibri]

Hypothetically, what would have happened to Adam and Eve's children if they had not sinned? Where would Adam and Eve be today? Where would their children be? In what condition would their bodies and minds be in?

Remember Jesus is an example of a perfect human. The concepts and contrasts he could make would be accessible to all those deemed perfect.

If Adamic sin was not genetically passed on or at least miasmically passed on to our children, then why do our children suffer?

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

what about cancer? Do u like life with cancer ?

I don't have cancer. You seem to be saying that bad things exist, therefore life is hopeless (futile). What a sad out look. Do you have no joys in life? Is there nothing you appreciate? Have you never felt satisfied, happy?

 

[Ingledsva]

I disagree with this totally. It was never God's intent for man to ever sin. He had the right to remind them that he is the final arbitrator of what is right and wrong. The were not prone to fail. Eve even knew that she should avoid looking at the tree as to look would create a longing. Maybe that was an added instruction from Adam. Of all the distractions that token reminder of final authority was very very very easy for them not to fail.

It was rigged for them to succeed. They broke themselves, and could no longer pass on the ability to easily resist sin.

Jesus proved that they were fully in the wrong. They had it easy and gave up their integrity. He was pushed to the limit and never did.

Adam and Chav'vah is just a story. Not real!

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Hypothetically, what would have happened to Adam and Eve's children if they had not sinned? Where would Adam and Eve be today? Where would their children be? In what condition would their bodies and minds be in?

Remember Jesus is an example of a perfect human. The concepts and contrasts he could make would be accessible to all those deemed perfect.

If Adamic sin was not genetically passed on or at least miasmically passed on to our children, then why do our children suffer?

Adam and Chav'vah is just a story. And the story does not say the sin was genetically passed on. It says they created the condition - which all people are then born into - a world of choice.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Humanity rebelled against God and is fallen, we are given over to choose sin and our own selfish desires. A person is to be saved from their own slavery to sin, their rebellion against God and eternal separation from Him. God came to earth to die for His people, to pay the debt that they owe Him because of their sin and rebellion. Those who trust in Him and accept Jesus as Lord will be delivered from their bondage to sin, from their captivity, no longer slaves but sons to live in God's household forever.


No one is worthy of salvation. We all deserve Hell. The "good" that you do does not save, for all have sinned and fallen short. Works can save no one, we do not "elevate" ourselves but it is God who does that. It is God's grace alone that saves us, those who believe and trust in what Jesus accomplished on the cross and accept Him as Lord.

You might deserve Hell, - but I sure as hell don't.

The idea that all people deserve hell is ridiculous.


*

 

[Kolibri]

seriously if Adam and Eve is a fable, then there is nothing to learn.

But if it is history there are conclusions that can be drawn.

Did not Jesus treat the account as real history at Matthew 19:3-6?

 

[mainliner]

I don't have cancer. You seem to be saying that bad things exist, therefore life is hopeless (futile). What a sad out look. Do you have no joys in life? Is there nothing you appreciate? Have you never felt satisfied, happy?

wow !!! You need saving from yourself buddy after this quote

good luck

im done

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

wow !!! You need saving from yourself buddy after this quote

good luck

im done

No, I think it's pretty clear that you are the one that has no hope in the here and now. If there is not an afterlife, then you truly have no point to your existence. I on the other hand find meaning in my life and the lives of those around me.

P.S. I hope some day you do find something in this world to be happy about.