School shootings are students' own problem, learning CPR the solution, says Santorum.

[SkepticThinker]

I question your idea of productive.

And I'm really questioning yours. These kids have drawn a lot of attention to a worthy cause, AND they've managed to elicit real discussion and change, which was quite lacking up until now.

Good causes become undermined by the methods used to accomplish it. Asking for donations isn't hard.

So you have a problem with protesting, raising money and pushing politicians for legislative changes? Why?

What methods would you suggest these kids use? Do you have one in mind that is as effective (or more) as their current method is turning out to be?

Support for control existed for decades. All they did was ask for what already existed.

And yet nothing happened. Now, something is happening. Still not good enough for you?

Support for the victims and family existed prior to their call for support of it.

Now they have more. This is a bad thing ... why?

Except his parents are encouraging him while the media goes out of it's way to give him air time.

That's their/his prerogative. Why do you care so much that one kid is missing some school time?

New Mexico State University has offered him a scholarship.The dean of the school "sent out an email to Hogg's school principal and guidance counselors, praising them for educating articulate, thoughtful, and kind young people. She also asked Hogg and his fellow student leaders to give her a call, writing "I can assure them that they will be admitted to our university and I will personally make it my commitment to raise as much funding as I can to support them with scholarships."
NMSU dean offers scholarship to outspoken shooting survivor

Sounds like he'll be okay to me.

Your solution failed from the start as you are ignoring how much people are bending over backwards for him.

What?

Existing organizations comprised of adults organized the march.

Along with the kids. Why does this upset you so much?

You sidestepped the point again. These kids organized and showed up to a protest march on a SATURDAY which kind of contradicts your whole "these kids just want to skip school" nonsense.

Sure. However part of my point is that they are not being suspended nor expelled for violating the schools rules regarding attendance. Political activism is not a justified reason for missing school. Yet the school not only does not enforce it's own policy it supports his agenda hence a public school is endorsing a political movement. That is a major problem.

You really think they should be expelled for missing school for 17 minutes to honour the 17 kids who were recently murdered in cold blood at their school? Seriously, that really chaps your hide that much??

Go look at some interviews and how channels such as CNN let the children lie. Heck CNN admitted it after getting flack for it.

Link?

Go look at which organizations support which kids. Fox has its pro-2A poster child while CNN has it's poster child. Both companies have had their agendas and biases exposed at length.

So? How is this the fault of the kids?

Representing oneself and one's group on television doesn't automatically make one a puppet of the broadcaster. That would make anyone who appears on any TV program a puppet of that program.

Policy which they are now complaining about. ID, security checks, door access, clear backpacks.

Clear backpacks are not a solution to anything. They're merely a band-aid hiding the real problems.

The same children are now claiming violation of the 1st, 4th and 14th Amendments. Ironic how they complain when the changes effect them personally but ignore solution which violate rights they do not exercise.

Link?

Said changes already existed in many forms in other schools and states.

Apparently not.

Adults created the changes, adults implemented the changes. Not a single one of those children was involved in that process. And those changes were only applicable to that school. Changes which those students object to.

Uh yeah, because children don't run the world; adults do. It's sad that these children had to be the ones to push these adults for change, given that the adults couldn't manage to do it themselves without being pushed to wake up by these children.

There is way to conduct yourself in public and as a public speaker with people you do not know and people that do not know you. These children have not learned that yet nor have you it seems. Also the swearing is used as part of demonization of those that do not agree. Swearing also show a lack of vocabulary and the inability to communicate ideas with words properly.

Sometimes swearing is appropriate and effective.

Swear words are words, so I'm not sure how you think it shows a lack of vocabulary. I've never understood why grown adults can't handle a few "bad" words.

You're demonizing children that you disagree with. Do you think what you're doing makes you more special because you didn't swear?

I'd love to see some links that better illustrate what you're talking about.


Sorry but you come off like a sore sport and a Negative Nelly. Nothing these kids do would ever be good enough for you, because you don't like their message. I never thought I'd see the day when grown adults are besides themselves because some children are begging them to keep them safe from shootings in their own schools. You're probably the same type of adult that is always going on about how useless, unproductive and stupid teenagers are these days.

 

[Underhill]

Comparing Nazis to Demons is really unfair.

To the Demons.

Tough call that...

 

[Shad]

And I'm really questioning yours. These kids have drawn a lot of attention to a worthy cause, AND they've managed to elicit real discussion and change, which was quite lacking up until now.

Attention does not mean productive. A crying child draws attention but is not productive itself.

We could discuss productive if you wish.

So you have a problem with protesting, raising money and pushing politicians for legislative changes? Why?

I have no issues with the methods but the goals behind it.

What methods would you suggest these kids use?

Start with community as it was a peer that shot up the place.

Do you have one in mind that is as effective (or more) as their current method is turning out to be?

Effective is applicable to the method. There method is not going to stop crime thus is missing the point.

And yet nothing happened. Now, something is happening. Still not good enough for you?

What happens matters. The solutions matter.

Now they have more. This is a bad thing ... why?

Except their goal is about guns primary thus the help is secondary.

That's their/his prerogative. Why do you care so much that one kid is missing some school time?

Special privilege simply put. Taking time off for mental issues and therapy, which I would support, is different than time off to be an activist.

New Mexico State University has offered him a scholarship.The dean of the school "sent out an email to Hogg's school principal and guidance counselors, praising them for educating articulate, thoughtful, and kind young people. She also asked Hogg and his fellow student leaders to give her a call, writing "I can assure them that they will be admitted to our university and I will personally make it my commitment to raise as much funding as I can to support them with scholarships."
NMSU dean offers scholarship to outspoken shooting survivor

Grandstanding for PR. They didn't apply to the school. The school is offering based on activism which I expert from universities these days. Talk over substance.

Sounds like he'll be okay to me.

Only because of the privilege he given.

What?

IE the solutions are accepted based on who they are rather than substance.

Along with the kids. Why does this upset you so much?

Adults did the heavy work.

You sidestepped the point again. These kids organized and showed up to a protest march on a SATURDAY which kind of contradicts your whole "these kids just want to skip school" nonsense.

Wrong existing organizations did. The children didn't create an organization themselves for the march.

You really think they should be expelled for missing school for 17 minutes to honour the 17 kids who were recently murdered in cold blood at their school? Seriously, that really chaps your hide that much??

People are expelled for missing class all the time. This is about priorities and the willingness of the school to forfeit it's responibility

Link?

Go look at Hoggs twitter account.

So? How is this the fault of the kids?

Hogg has been selective in who he talks to. Remember he said he wouldn't talk to Trump about solutions.

Representing oneself and one's group on television doesn't automatically make one a puppet of the broadcaster. That would make anyone who appears on any TV program a puppet of that program.

CNN has posted "regret" that they let these children go off the rails, after the fact. That is manipulation

Clear backpacks are not a solution to anything. They're merely a band-aid hiding the real problems.

As is gun control as it does not address fundamental issues. Amusing too as it the same line of reason their opposition used against their ideas.

Link?

Hogg's twitter or Google Parkland clear backpacks.

Apparently not.

Security doors, ID and clear backpacks have been used in inner cities with major problems for years now.

Uh yeah, because children don't run the world; adults do. It's sad that these children had to be the ones to push these adults for change, given that the adults couldn't manage to do it themselves without being pushed to wake up by these children.

The mob has spoken. Chicago for example has had strict security in schools for years. These policies were not widespread outside certain areas.

Sometimes swearing is appropriate and effective.

No they way there are using it.

Swear words are words, so I'm not sure how you think it shows a lack of vocabulary. I've never understood why grown adults can't handle a few "bad" words.

It is about platform and situation. It isn't about hearing swear words in general. Public speaking is one of those areas.

You're demonizing children that you disagree with.

They did that on their own. I am just point it out

Do you think what you're doing makes you more special because you didn't swear?

As a public speaker that interacts with adults and young adults? Yes. I understand proper decorum, they do not.

I'd love to see some links that better illustrate what you're talking about.

A lot of my sources are blocked due to access restriction on my current Wifi which is a university service.

Sorry but you come off like a sore sport and a Negative Nelly. Nothing these kids do would ever be good enough for you, because you don't like their message. I never thought I'd see the day when grown adults are besides themselves because some children are begging them to keep them safe from shootings in their own schools. You're probably the same type of adult that is always going on about how useless, unproductive and stupid teenagers are these days.

I listed a number of things they could do outside of activism. Yes I reject their primary solutions especially the simplicity and ignorance of government functions and authority.

Those children are proposed solutions that can effect every adults. Seems like you are oblivious to this factor and why adult do not like simplistic ideas from children not off the apron strings.

There are some kids that are very productive, some are in the middle and some that are not productive at all. It all depends on how and where such an interaction takes places. For example there is a school near my home. A number of those students I have seen working jobs or at charities. Good for them. Other students I see getting high after school or getting trashed on school grounds over the weekend thus are unproductive and destructive (they trash the areas they use).

 

[SkepticThinker]

Attention does not mean productive. A crying child draws attention but is not productive itself.

How do you keep missing the part where these kids have actually been the catalyst for legislative changes and real discussion of the issues? You’ve ignored that at every turn in this conversation.

They’ve gotten up off their butts, advocated on behalf of fellow students, petitioned politicians for legislative changes (successfully, in many cases), encouraged and created real discussion about the these issues on a nationwide scale, managed to get hundreds of thousands of other people off their butts for their cause and raised money for shooting victims. And you think that’s not productive?

We could discuss productive if you wish.

I’d love to know your definition of the word.

I have no issues with the methods but the goals behind it.

That’s the real issue here. You just don’t like the message. So you’re going to kill the messengers.

The “goals behind it” are to eradicate shooting massacres. You really take issue with that?

Start with community as it was a peer that shot up the place.

That’s about as vague as it gets. Could you elaborate?

Effective is applicable to the method. There method is not going to stop crime thus is missing the point.

You haven’t answered the question.

You don’t think banning semi-automatic weapons that fire high-velocity rounds; banning accessories that simulate automatic weapons (e.g. bump stocks); establishing a database of gun sales and universal background checks; changing privacy laws to allow mental healthcare providers to communicate with law enforcement; closing gun show and secondhand sales loopholes; allowing the CDC to make recommendations for gun reform; raising firearm purchase age to 21; dedicating more funds to mental health research and professionals; and increasing funding for school security will lower gun crime rates and massacres at all? How does it miss the point?

Parkland students: our manifesto to change America's gun laws | Editorial staff of the Eagle Eye

I ask again, what do you suggest doing?

What happens matters. The solutions matter.

No kidding. Maybe you could address what was said. You said that people were talking about gun control issues before these kids spoke up. I pointed out that it has never gained any real traction until now. And now things seem to be changing. It’s a good thing these kids don’t share your negative attitude.

Except their goal is about guns primary thus the help is secondary.

Help is help, regardless of whether or not you personally don’t like the message.

Weren’t you whining earlier about how you do charity work and that somehow makes you more productive and grown up than these kids? So now that you know they have raised money for a charity that supports SHOOTING VICTIMS AND THEIR FAMILIES, you’re still not satisfied because you’re against gun control reform? You can’t be serious.

Special privilege simply put. Taking time off for mental issues and therapy, which I would support, is different than time off to be an activist.

Boo hoo. Maybe he took time off for both. Maybe getting up and doing something to help solve the problem is therapeutic for some people.

Even if he solely took time off for this cause, you really don’t think working towards ending gun massacres IN SCHOOLS is a cause worthy of time and attention?

http://www.kob.com/new-mexico-news/...p-offer-parkland-survivor-david-hogg/4851647/

Grandstanding for PR. They didn't apply to the school. The school is offering based on activism which I expert from universities these days. Talk over substance.

I see a lot of substance coming from these kids. You don’t, simply because you don’t like the message. You have made that abundantly clear.

Only because of the privilege he given.

So you claim.

IE the solutions are accepted based on who they are rather than substance.

Actually, many people support the substance of their message and the proposed solutions. You’re not one of them, we get it.

Adults did the heavy work.

The adults sat on their hands and did nothing until these kids showed up.

Wrong existing organizations did. The children didn't create an organization themselves for the march.

So did the kids. And you keep ignoring the obvious which is that none of this would have ever happened, if not for these kids getting involved.

Also the kids are the ones who showed up on a SATURDAY to march alongside hundreds of thousands of other people. That’s the point you’ve sidestepped for a second time because it’s more important to you to poo-poo the fact that they asked some organizations to help them out (like anyone whose holding a march/protest does all the time). Would you rather kids just sit around eating tide pods then? I seriously don’t understand your negative attitude here.

People are expelled for missing class all the time. This is about priorities and the willingness of the school to forfeit it's responsibility

I’ve never heard of anyone being expelled for missing class. You’re being ridiculous again.

You really, truly think the school abdicated its responsibility by allowing students that had just watched their friends being gunned down in front of them to honour those friends for 17 frigging minutes? Instead, the school should have expelled all the students? I mean, how ridiculous are you going to get here?

Go look at Hoggs twitter account.

How about you just provide me with an example?

Hogg has been selective in who he talks to. Remember he said he wouldn't talk to Trump about solutions.

So what? He can talk to whomever he pleases. I wouldn’t talk to Trump either, because he talks out of both sides of his face.

You know there are a bunch of other kids involved in the movement right? It’s a bit strange that you’re strictly focused on Hogg.

CNN has posted "regret" that they let these children go off the rails, after the fact. That is manipulation

Do you have a link? How is that considered manipulation??

As is gun control as it does not address fundamental issues. Amusing too as it the same line of reason their opposition used against their ideas.

Their list of proposed solutions does address fundamental issues.

Hogg's twitter or Google Parkland clear backpacks.

It’s a stupid idea. It’s not a solution to anything. It’s a temporary band-aid. If he says that, I agree with him.

A link to whatever it is you’re talking about would be great.

Security doors, ID and clear backpacks have been used in inner cities with major problems for years now.

Instead of having to live in an ever-increasing police state, maybe there are alternative solutions that actually address the root of the issues.

These are not the changes the kids are proposing anyway. They’ve proposed the changes I listed above.

The mob has spoken. Chicago for example has had strict security in schools for years. These policies were not widespread outside certain areas.

I have no idea why you’re pointing this out. Has it been effective?

No they way there are using it.

You have yet to say how they are using it.

It is about platform and situation. It isn't about hearing swear words in general. Public speaking is one of those areas.

It sounds like it is about the swear words themselves.

They did that on their own. I am just point it out

No, you did it.

People don’t demonize themselves. Others, like you, do it to them.

As a public speaker that interacts with adults and young adults? Yes. I understand proper decorum, they do not.

A lot of my sources are blocked due to access restriction on my current Wifi which is a university service.

I’ll wait until you’re in a better location then.

I listed a number of things they could do outside of activism. Yes I reject their primary solutions especially the simplicity and ignorance of government functions and authority.

I think I missed your list then. Or did it just include charity work, and that’s all?

Those children are proposed solutions that can effect every adults. Seems like you are oblivious to this factor and why adult do not like simplistic ideas from children not off the apron strings.

The adults are getting on board as well. Not sure if you noticed, but they were marching alongside the kids at the protests. And they’re the only ones capable of making actual legislative changes, and in many cases, they are. Thanks to the attention these kids have drawn to the issues.

There are some kids that are very productive, some are in the middle and some that are not productive at all. It all depends on how and where such an interaction takes places. For example there is a school near my home. A number of those students I have seen working jobs or at charities. Good for them. Other students I see getting high after school or getting trashed on school grounds over the weekend thus are unproductive and destructive (they trash the areas they use).

Well look at that, we’re right back where we started!

These kids areproductive. They’re not sitting around on their butts doing drugs behind the gymnasium. They’re getting out there and doing something. How anyone can interpret that as being “unproductive” is beyond me.

 

[Shad]

How do you keep missing the part where these kids have actually been the catalyst for legislative changes and real discussion of the issues? You’ve ignored that at every turn in this conversation.

Changes they rejected and didn't even argue for? Congratulations?

They’ve gotten up off their butts, advocated on behalf of fellow students, petitioned politicians for legislative changes (successfully, in many cases), encouraged and created real discussion about the these issues on a nationwide scale, managed to get hundreds of thousands of other people off their butts for their cause and raised money for shooting victims. And you think that’s not productive?

Some of those students are speaking out against those claiming to speak for them. A number of Black students release a letter today slamming them for "using white privilege to speak for black students". Their word as per Hogg

I’d love to know your definition of the word.

Doing something which results in something of value. Question is can you show that value?

That’s the real issue here. You just don’t like the message. So you’re going to kill the messengers.

I have addressed their arguments already. Now I am pointing out how they act, see people and talk. Try again

The “goals behind it” are to eradicate shooting massacres. You really take issue with that?

Unrealistic goal that will just let to the ends justifies the means. Also said solution effect people with no intention to harm anyone.

That’s about as vague as it gets. Could you elaborate?

Getting involved and helping people direct as I have mentioned repeatedly

You haven’t answered the question.

Schools and the police work together when they have students which are criminals. Parkland had a policy in which the police were not involved as much as people didn't like the statistics

You don’t think banning semi-automatic weapons that fire high-velocity rounds;

High-velocity is applicable to .22s, 9mm, etc, etc. A lot of weapons that can fire high-velocity round can fire subsonic, hyper-velocity, etc. So a .22 LR can be banned based on a single round type even if it use can use other rounds or the HV is not even popular.

banning accessories that simulate automatic weapons (e.g. bump stocks);

Which were already banned until the ATF said otherwise and Obama did nothing about it.

establishing a database of gun sales

I am against this

and universal background checks;

I need details by what these checks actually are.

changing privacy laws to allow mental healthcare providers to communicate with law enforcement;

Doctor/patient confidentiality can not be dismiss so casually.

closing gun show and secondhand sales loopholes;

Agree

allowing the CDC to make recommendations for gun reform; raising firearm purchase age to 21;

Outside it's mandate thus the CDC is irrelevant

dedicating more funds to mental health research and professionals;

I have already suggested this in other threads. Heck I would like to see institutionalization return instead of people getting a bottle of pills and the hope they follow the instructions. The system needs an overhaul in general and has for decades. This has little to do with guns thought so it merely hedging an one topics with one almost unrelated.

and increasing funding for school security will lower gun crime rates and massacres at all?

The students and a lot of the gun control crowd reject this to the point of calling school a prison.

No kidding. Maybe you could address what was said. You said that people were talking about gun control issues before these kids spoke up. I pointed out that it has never gained any real traction until now. And now things seem to be changing. It’s a good thing these kids don’t share your negative attitude.

You are misinformed. Automatic weapon ban and bump stock ban existed before Parkland. The former is a major change that pales in comparsion.

Help is help, regardless of whether or not you personally don’t like the message.

I question if so-called help is a fact. For example look at various charities which collect donation but use that money for other reasons.

Weren’t you whining earlier about how you do charity work and that somehow makes you more productive and grown up than these kids?

Not grown up as children can become involved in charity. I was pointing out actual impact rather than assumed impact. For example I signed up to teach grade school math to those on welfare without a GD. It is part of a program thus I am actually helping people better their lives with them rather than throwing money at them.

So now that you know they have raised money for a charity that supports SHOOTING VICTIMS AND THEIR FAMILIES, you’re still not satisfied because you’re against gun control reform?

No I pointed out that this money would have come in without the students saying a word. It happens all the time with a pundit.

Boo hoo. Maybe he took time off for both. Maybe getting up and doing something to help solve the problem is therapeutic for some people.

Then he lied about one. If he is not capable of going to school but is fully capable of being on TV, giving interviews, marches, etc, his mental issues are not an issue but a facade. School is easier than public speaking on national tv.

Even if he solely took time off for this cause, you really don’t think working towards ending gun massacres IN SCHOOLS is a cause worthy of time and attention?

I think what the school is doing is wrong. I merely pointed out he has different priority that the school "entertains" for little reason.

I see a lot of substance coming from these kids. You don’t, simply because you don’t like the message. You have made that abundantly clear.

No I reject a lot of the solution as I have said before. Just keep ignoring that for the sake of your narrative.

So you claim.

Fact.

The adults sat on their hands and did nothing until these kids showed up.

BS

So did the kids. And you keep ignoring the obvious which is that none of this would have ever happened, if not for these kids getting involved.

A movement would have capitalized on the event regardless of student action.

Also the kids are the ones who showed up on a SATURDAY to march alongside hundreds of thousands of other people. That’s the point you’ve sidestepped for a second time because it’s more important to you to poo-poo the fact that they asked some organizations to help them out (like anyone whose holding a march/protest does all the time). Would you rather kids just sit around eating tide pods then? I seriously don’t understand your negative attitude here.

You claimed they did something they didn't do without organizations and adults running the show. I knocked down your assertion. You do not understand as you do not want to.

I’ve never heard of anyone being expelled for missing class. You’re being ridiculous again.

Wrong I said that based on experience

You really, truly think the school abdicated its responsibility by allowing students that had just watched their friends being gunned down in front of them to honour those friends for 17 frigging minutes?

The schools purpose is to educate not coddle people and their political views

Instead, the school should have expelled all the students? I mean, how ridiculous are you going to get here?

For skipping classes? Yes.

How about you just provide me with an example?

Stop being lazy I took you to look. Google Hogg, twitter and math test. Heck I think the video is on cspan.

So what? He can talk to whomever he pleases. I wouldn’t talk to Trump either, because he talks out of both sides of his face.

He wants solution but does not want to talk to the higher office in the nation. The one that can veto his solutions.... That is called being partisan but I already know they were by how they talk to people that disagree with them such as accusing a mother that she does not love her own children because she disagrees with them.....

You know there are a bunch of other kids involved in the movement right? It’s a bit strange that you’re strictly focused on Hogg.

Hoggs is the face of the movement, the one making the most noise, the one claiming to represent people that did not consent to him representing them. Figure it out.

Do you have a link? How is that considered manipulation??

Look up CNN's apology regarding lettings students say whatever they wanted. If CNN had integrity they would stopped such outbursts from the start. Instead they let it go on for a month before getting flack for it and issuing an apology.

Their list of proposed solutions does address fundamental issues.

By invoking authoritarianism to accomplish it. A lot of issues can be addressed by stripping rights from citizens. It is called a Police State.

It’s a stupid idea. It’s not a solution to anything. It’s a temporary band-aid. If he says that, I agree with him.

It is a dumb idea. However he was complaining about amendment violations that effect him while having no issues if his solution violate rights of others. That is called being selfish. If he didn't complain about amendment violation I would agree. However he did thus exposed his double-standards.

A link to whatever it is you’re talking about would be great.

You need to figure out to use a search engine.

Instead of having to live in an ever-increasing police state, maybe there are alternative solutions that actually address the root of the issues.

The solutions proposed are sliding to that sort of state.

These are not the changes the kids are proposing anyway. They’ve proposed the changes I listed above.

Yup they ignore solution that can work on the ground because it effects them directly.

I have no idea why you’re pointing this out. Has it been effective?

Tyranny of the mob. Look it up.

Effective is irrelevant when the methods are horrible.

You have yet to say how they are using it.

As smears, name calling, emotional responses, etc. Proper decorum, heard of it?

It sounds like it is about the swear words themselves.

Nope.

People don’t demonize themselves. Others, like you, do it to them.

Wrong. Look up the words including what it is synonymous with; criticize.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You need to figure out to use a search engine.




.

You need to figure out how to back up your claims.

 

[Shad]

You need to figure out how to back up your claims.

I told you I had restriction and how to find what I am talking about. You do not want to bother with putting in such an effort. It is out there for you to find. Your lack of effort does not make it nonexistent

 

[SkepticThinker]

I told you I had restriction and how to find what I am talking about. You do not want to bother with putting in such an effort. It is out there for you to find. Your lack of effort does not make it nonexistent

It's not my effort that should be put into backing up the claims you make. That rests with you.

 

[Shad]

It's not my effort that should be put into backing up the claims you make. That rests with you.

I told you exactly what to look for. I will do so again. Open Google, type "david hoggs cspan math test" There you go.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I told you exactly what to look for. I will do so again. Open Google, type "david hoggs cspan math test" There you go.

In regards to what claim?

You really don't get how debates work, do you?

Boy, you really seem to be obsessed with this Hogg kid. I'm almost afraid to ask what you think of Emma Gonzalez.

 

[Shad]

In regards to what claim?

Skipping class

You really don't get how debates work, do you?

This isn't a debate.

Boy, you really seem to be obsessed with this Hogg kid. I'm almost afraid to ask what you think of Emma Gonzalez.

Face of the franchise so to speak.

Already commented on her and her bullying.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Changes they rejected and didn't even argue for? Congratulations?

They haven’t rejected the changes I mentioned.

What they’ve rejected is the ludicrous idea that clear backpacks will solve a much larger and more complex problem.

Some of those students are speaking out against those claiming to speak for them. A number of Black students release a letter today slamming them for "using white privilege to speak for black students". Their word as per Hogg

You’ve completely missed the point. You’ve been arguing that getting up off their butts and planning and being involved in marches and protests, town hall meetings, and bringing their grievances to the attention of their Washington representatives are not productive actions. Then you argued that they should go start a charity or something, if they want to do something truly productive, like you do in your life. When I point out that they’ve done that as well, you complain that charitable organizations already exist. I think you’re being unreasonable.

Doing something which results in something of value. Question is can you show that value?

They. Have. Done. That.

I’ve told you the “value” several times now. That you ignore it an issue with your own thinking, not theirs or mine.

Prior to these kids coming out and starting this, every talk about mass shooting problems (that occur almost every day in the US), ended up with “Now is not the time to talk about it.” And then everybody just moves on. Even after 20 six- and seven-year-old children were gunned down in their school. Well, we’re certainly talking about it now, aren’t we? You can thank the kids for that. Or not, because apparently you don’t think it needs to be talked about and nothing needs to change. You’re fine with all these mass shootings?

I honestly cannot figure out why you are trying to poo-poo kids who are trying to change the world for the better. They are most definitely not sitting around being unproductive and lazy.

I have addressed their arguments already. Now I am pointing out how they act, see people and talk. Try again

You don’t like their arguments. You’ve made that abundantly clear.

Unrealistic goal that will just let to the ends justifies the means. Also said solution effect people with no intention to harm anyone.

They could certainly work towards getting the number of mass shootings down. That’s definitely a worthy goal/cause. It’s not unrealistic given that the rest of the industrialized world doesn’t have anything like the number of mass shootings we see in the US. Something clearly can be done.

You seem to be more worried that gun reform is going to affect you on a personal level, more than anything else. Is that so?

Getting involved and helping people direct as I have mentioned repeatedly

Why do you think these kids have not done this?

Schools and the police work together when they have students which are criminals. Parkland had a policy in which the police were not involved as much as people didn't like the statistics

You said “their method” is not going to stop crime. How do you know this?

Do you just think there are no methods by which mass shootings could be cut down or eradicated? How did the rest of the free world figure this one out then?

The kid who shot up the school was not a criminal. Then he shot up the school and became one.

High-velocity is applicable to .22s, 9mm, etc, etc. A lot of weapons that can fire high-velocity round can fire subsonic, hyper-velocity, etc. So a .22 LR can be banned based on a single round type even if it use can use other rounds or the HV is not even popular.

Again, you didn’t answer the question.

Which were already banned until the ATF said otherwise and Obama did nothing about it.

I don’t know what Obama has to do with what is going on NOW. That’s just you inserting your political opinion into the mix when it’s not necessary to the discussion.

You’ve managed to avoid answering the question again though.

I am against this

Why?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I need details by what these checks actually are.

“Proposals for universal background checks would require almost all firearms transactions in the United States to be recorded and go through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), closing what is sometimes called the private sale loophole.

In a 2017 survey, a panel of 32 scholars of criminology, public health, and law rated universal background checks as the most effective policy to prevent gun deaths, ranking it #1 of 29 possible gun-related policies.[1] Universal background checks enjoy high levels of public support.[1][2][3][4][5]
Universal background check - Wikipedia

Doctor/patient confidentiality can not be dismiss so casually.

Who said it would be dismissed “casually?”

Agree

Finally.

Outside it's mandate thus the CDC is irrelevant

Why would that be outside the mandate of the CDC? They have a department for “Injury Prevention and Control.” That doesn’t include guns, in your mind?

I have already suggested this in other threads. Heck I would like to see institutionalization return instead of people getting a bottle of pills and the hope they follow the instructions. The system needs an overhaul in general and has for decades. This has little to do with guns thought so it merely hedging an one topics with one almost unrelated.

Gee, talk about violating peoples’ rights. You want to lock up more people in mental institutions? And you don’t think mental health has anything to do with the mass shooting problem? How’s that?

The students and a lot of the gun control crowd reject this to the point of calling school a prison.

Well yeah. If we’re talking about “solutions” like clear backpacks and body searches, we’re talking about band-aid solutions that don’t address the root of the problem. I guess kids don’t want to feel like they’re in prison while they’re at school. Why should they have to?

You are misinformed. Automatic weapon ban and bump stock ban existed before Parkland. The former is a major change that pales in comparsion.

It works in other countries.

Those occurred in the past, right? Again, we’re talking about NOW.

It’s been years since anyone seriously addressed this stuff. “Now is not the time” and all that.

I question if so-called help is a fact. For example look at various charities which collect donation but use that money for other reasons.

We’re not talking about those “other charities.”

Not grown up as children can become involved in charity. I was pointing out actual impact rather than assumed impact. For example I signed up to teach grade school math to those on welfare without a GD. It is part of a program thus I am actually helping people better their lives with them rather than throwing money at them.

Boy, you really are a judgmental one, aren’t you? If people aren’t doing exactly what you personally like, they’re just being unproductive morons. Not you though! You’re special.

You don’t think marching and pushing for change so such a horrible thing potentially doesn’t happen again to anyone else, are good ways for people to vent their grief and anxiety and fears? You don’t think that helps anyone?

No I pointed out that this money would have come in without the students saying a word. It happens all the time with a pundit.

You don’t know that.

Boy you really don’t want to give these kids credit for anything, do you?

Then he lied about one. If he is not capable of going to school but is fully capable of being on TV, giving interviews, marches, etc, his mental issues are not an issue but a facade. School is easier than public speaking on national tv.

There’s no way for you to know this. Are you his counselor?

I think what the school is doing is wrong. I merely pointed out he has different priority that the school "entertains" for little reason.

You have no idea what arrangement he has with the school and I don’t really see how its your business anyway.

No I reject a lot of the solution as I have said before. Just keep ignoring that for the sake of your narrative.

You keep saying they’re unproductive, which they clearly are not. You simply do not like their message(s).

Fact.

No, it’s your uninformed opinion.

But ya know what? This kid lived through a horribly traumatic event in which his fellow classmates were murdered in front of him. Maybe he deserves a bit of what you call “privilege.”

BS

Fact.

A movement would have capitalized on the event regardless of student action.

Except that it didn’t. Not until the kids stepped up.

You claimed they did something they didn't do without organizations and adults running the show. I knocked down your assertion. You do not understand as you do not want to.

It wouldn’t have happened without the kids. This is obvious given that it didn’t happen before these kids got involved.

Wrong I said that based on experience

Sounds like nonsense. You really support expelling kids from school for missing class?

The schools purpose is to educate not coddle people and their political views

That’s your opinion.

For skipping classes? Yes.

Sorry, but that’s ridiculous.

Especially when we’re talking about kids who just lived through a mass shooting. You should look into finding some compassion and empathy.

Stop being lazy I took you to look. Google Hogg, twitter and math test. Heck I think the video is on cspan.

“I won’t provide any sources for my claims but you’re lazy for not knowing what I’m talking about and not looking it up yourself.” You’re funny.

He wants solution but does not want to talk to the higher office in the nation. The one that can veto his solutions.... That is called being partisan but I already know they were by how they talk to people that disagree with them such as accusing a mother that she does not love her own children because she disagrees with them.....

Trump can’t do much of anything, apparently. And he’s all about telling you what you want to hear when you’re in front of him and then totally changing his mind and saying something else once you’ve left the room.

The most partisan person in this discussion appears to be you.

Hoggs is the face of the movement, the one making the most noise, the one claiming to represent people that did not consent to him representing them. Figure it out.

I would have said Emma Gonzalez is the face of the movement, but Hogg is definitely one of the leaders.

When has he claimed to represent anyone? I keep seeing these kids on various interviews on CNN and such and they seem to make a big point to say that there are many different voices within the movement with many different opinions, offering many different solutions. None of this one single guy represents everybody stuff that you’re going on about.

Look up CNN's apology regarding lettings students say whatever they wanted. If CNN had integrity they would stopped such outbursts from the start. Instead they let it go on for a month before getting flack for it and issuing an apology.

Sorry I can’t find anything. Nor do I know what you’re talking about. You’re going to have to back up your own claim.

I remember Jake Tapper admonishing the audience to keep it down and stay civil, at the town hall meeting they had a while back. Is that what you’re talking about?

By invoking authoritarianism to accomplish it. A lot of issues can be addressed by stripping rights from citizens. It is called a Police State.

You want Police School States. Just not police states in general, because that would affect YOU. Got it.

I, and millions and millions of other people live in countries with strong gun control. And yet, we don’t live in a police state. That’s just one of those lame talking points meant to invoke fear and shut down discussions about solutions.

It is a dumb idea. However he was complaining about amendment violations that effect him while having no issues if his solution violate rights of others. That is called being selfish. If he didn't complain about amendment violation I would agree. However he did thus exposed his double-standards.

Yes, it is dumb. And talk about a police state. Maybe we should just all use clear purses and knapsacks, and briefcases everywhere we go. Maybe we should wear see-through clothing too, just in case. Better yet, let’s all just walk around naked, just in case. That sure sounds like a free society.

The person being selfish here sure sounds like you. You don’t want any gun control measures that would affect you personally, in the slightest.

What “amendment violations” was he talking about? Do you have some specifics?

The solutions proposed are sliding to that sort of state.

You’re fine with the kids living in a police state. Just as long as it doesn’t affect you.

Yup they ignore solution that can work on the ground because it effects them directly.

Pardon?

Tyranny of the mob. Look it up.

Effective is irrelevant when the methods are horrible.

I’ve been saying all along we need better solutions than just beefing up security in schools. The kids that you despise so much seem to agree with me.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Skipping class



This isn't a debate.



Face of the franchise so to speak.

Already commented on her and her bullying.

This thread is in the Political DEBATES section of the forum.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I told you exactly what to look for. I will do so again. Open Google, type "david hoggs cspan math test" There you go.

Sorry, I'm not going to watch a big long video in order to figure out what it is you're talking about.

Can you provide a clip, or a transcript or something?

 

[Shad]

They haven’t rejected the changes I mentioned.

Those changes have not been implemented, if you mean the manfesto

What they’ve rejected is the ludicrous idea that clear backpacks will solve a much larger and more complex problem.

It is how they did.

You’ve completely missed the point. You’ve been arguing that getting up off their butts and planning and being involved in marches and protests, town hall meetings, and bringing their grievances to the attention of their Washington representatives are not productive actions. Then you argued that they should go start a charity or something, if they want to do something truly productive, like you do in your life. When I point out that they’ve done that as well, you complain that charitable organizations already exist. I think you’re being unreasonable.

Working for and with a charity is different from donating or fundraising.

They. Have. Done. That.

Such as what?

I’ve told you the “value” several times now. That you ignore it an issue with your own thinking, not theirs or mine.

I disagree with your idea of value.

Prior to these kids coming out and starting this, every talk about mass shooting problems (that occur almost every day in the US), ended up with “Now is not the time to talk about it.” And then everybody just moves on. Even after 20 six- and seven-year-old children were gunned down in their school. Well, we’re certainly talking about it now, aren’t we? You can thank the kids for that. Or not, because apparently you don’t think it needs to be talked about and nothing needs to change. You’re fine with all these mass shootings?

Completely false as school shootings have been in decline since the 90s. Nevermind the measures schools have had implements for years such as security, door checks, ID, etc.

I honestly cannot figure out why you are trying to poo-poo kids who are trying to change the world for the better. They are most definitely not sitting around being unproductive and lazy.

Their changes borderline authoritarianism and violate existing laws such as client/patient confidentality

They could certainly work towards getting the number of mass shootings down. That’s definitely a worthy goal/cause. It’s not unrealistic given that the rest of the industrialized world doesn’t have anything like the number of mass shootings we see in the US. Something clearly can be done.

Shootings have been going down for decades to the point it was occurring before they were born.

The rest of the world is irrelevant especially those subject to terrorist attacks and radicalization

You seem to be more worried that gun reform is going to affect you on a personal level, more than anything else. Is that so?

Yes as I am not a criminal so the solution targets everyone regardless of criminal intent or not.

Why do you think these kids have not done this?

Simple. It is the focus that has been publicized.

You said “their method” is not going to stop crime. How do you know this?

As people will use other methods of acquiring weapons

Do you just think there are no methods by which mass shootings could be cut down or eradicated? How did the rest of the free world figure this one out then?

Eradicated? Nope. That is unrealistic. I already suggested methods. Stop the policy of keeping the police at a distance when students are caught in criminal action. Bring back institutional of mentally ill rather than giving them a bottle of pills.

The kid who shot up the school was not a criminal. Then he shot up the school and became one.

Actually he was. Read Shelby Speno's comments on his actions; theft, assault, cruelty to animals.

Again, you didn’t answer the question.

I pointed out how misinformed you are about a topic that your question is nonsense as many weapons you wouldn't care about can shoot these rounds. Remember you argued about the weapon not the round itself.

I don’t know what Obama has to do with what is going on NOW. That’s just you inserting your political opinion into the mix when it’s not necessary to the discussion.

Is it not the position that those that do nothing about gun laws are on the NRA payroll? I pointed out a person that did nothing while having the EO power to do otherwise were not on the NRA payroll.

You’ve managed to avoid answering the question again though.

I pointed out it was already banned and the failure of government, a specific position, to do otherwise.

 

[Shad]

“Proposals for universal background checks would require almost all firearms transactions in the United States to be recorded and go through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), closing what is sometimes called the private sale loophole.

Already agree to the loophole issue. Read the detraction selection of your link.

Who said it would be dismissed “casually?”

It is being dismissed casually in this case as it's purpose is to prevent government from using medical records against someone. It is called pre-crime, the restriction of rights not based on action but by a soft science diagnosis by a single person. If someone is a such a danger that such a right must be restrict they should be in an institution.

Why would that be outside the mandate of the CDC? They have a department for “Injury Prevention and Control.” That doesn’t include guns, in your mind?

Nope as it is being used for political activism.

Gee, talk about violating peoples’ rights. You want to lock up more people in mental institutions? And you don’t think mental health has anything to do with the mass shooting problem? How’s that?

If people are so dangerous that they are on a blacklist they are a danger to themselves and others hence a danger to the community.

Well yeah. If we’re talking about “solutions” like clear backpacks and body searches, we’re talking about band-aid solutions that don’t address the root of the problem. I guess kids don’t want to feel like they’re in prison while they’re at school. Why should they have to?

It isn't a solution to the cause of the problem.

It works in other countries.

Different cultures, different values, different history. If you want to go down that road I can point out Israel's solution to school shootings rather than say the UK

Those occurred in the past, right? Again, we’re talking about NOW.

It’s been years since anyone seriously addressed this stuff. “Now is not the time” and all that.

False. States and various communities have discussed and taken steps years before Parkland. Bump stocks were banned. Institutionalization was common.

We’re not talking about those “other charities.”

Maybe you are not.

Boy, you really are a judgmental one, aren’t you? If people aren’t doing exactly what you personally like, they’re just being unproductive morons. Not you though! You’re special.

Hilarious tripe here. They children rant about people disagreeing with their views, slander them, etc. I point this out. I make a conclusion on how they act yet I am the one that is judgemental. Hilarious.

You don’t think marching and pushing for change so such a horrible thing potentially doesn’t happen again to anyone else, are good ways for people to vent their grief and anxiety and fears? You don’t think that helps anyone?

I disagree with their some of their solution which are part of the March.

You don’t know that.

Hilarious. You do not think a nationally televised event and the following month of media talking about it would result in no donations at all. All a group needed to do was take up a Parkland platform to raise support.

Boy you really don’t want to give these kids credit for anything, do you?

When they have actually done something on their own they will get credit.

There’s no way for you to know this. Are you his counselor?

I do not need to be his counselor to see what he said and how he has acted. Of course his counselor totally told him the best way to resolve his issues was to get on CNN and immerse themselves in a political conflict. That makes complete sense doesn't it....

You have no idea what arrangement he has with the school and I don’t really see how its your business anyway.

Special privilege is an issues when it is a public school.

You keep saying they’re unproductive, which they clearly are not. You simply do not like their message(s).

Wrong, they have no produced any major changes.

No, it’s your uninformed opinion.

Assertion and dismissed as such.

But ya know what? This kid lived through a horribly traumatic event in which his fellow classmates were murdered in front of him. Maybe he deserves a bit of what you call “privilege.”

Sympathy has limits in relation to state schools.

Fact.

Assertion and dismissed as such.

Except that it didn’t. Not until the kids stepped up.

The 90s shows otherwise.

It wouldn’t have happened without the kids. This is obvious given that it didn’t happen before these kids got involved.

BS. Groups were speaking up before the CNN townhall.

Sounds like nonsense. You really support expelling kids from school for missing class?

Yes as they are skipping classes without a valid reason.

That’s your opinion.

No that is the purpose of schools, education. Heck it is a key factor in the definition of the word

Sorry, but that’s ridiculous.

Hardly as people are expelled for that very reason. It is also a waste of funding to have students show up to class on a whim.

Especially when we’re talking about kids who just lived through a mass shooting. You should look into finding some compassion and empathy.

Having sympathy for what happened to them is one thing. Extending that sympathy to their political views is nonsense.

“I won’t provide any sources for my claims but you’re lazy for not knowing what I’m talking about and not looking it up yourself.” You’re funny.

Except I told you how to find sources, I told you why I couldn't link it. You have created a strawman to cover for the fact that you are lazy.

Trump can’t do much of anything, apparently. And he’s all about telling you what you want to hear when you’re in front of him and then totally changing his mind and saying something else once you’ve left the room.

He banned bump stocks with an EO via ATF which had banned it years ago. Of course I know Trump acts like a populist as he is one. Although he is completely blind to this.

The most partisan person in this discussion appears to be you.

Pot meet kettle

I would have said Emma Gonzalez is the face of the movement, but Hogg is definitely one of the leaders.

I see Hoggs as more relevant due to his interactions and information used in comparison to Gonzalez. Gonzalez is caught unaware when faced with opposing views.

When has he claimed to represent anyone? I keep seeing these kids on various interviews on CNN and such and they seem to make a big point to say that there are many different voices within the movement with many different opinions, offering many different solutions. None of this one single guy represents everybody stuff that you’re going on about.

Yup he actually claimed he is using his "White privilege" to speak for minorities. That is a claim to representation even if no one said he was their representative. Toss in the media using kids, on both sides with Kyle and Fox News, as representatives.

Sorry I can’t find anything. Nor do I know what you’re talking about. You’re going to have to back up your own claim.
I remember Jake Tapper admonishing the audience to keep it down and stay civil, at the town hall meeting they had a while back. Is that what you’re talking about?

No it was Stelter. He apologized about 2 weeks ago.

You want Police School States. Just not police states in general, because that would affect YOU. Got it.

Security in schools with high level of crime is reasonable. However applicable in every school it is not as location changes the statistical likelihood. Urban vs rural. Low class vs upper class. School policy regarding criminal activity matters as well. For example a school which has a disengagement of police policy may use security as a middle-ground.

I, and millions and millions of other people live in countries with strong gun control. And yet, we don’t live in a police state. That’s just one of those lame talking points meant to invoke fear and shut down discussions about solutions.

Except some of the proposed solutions do violate existing laws and modification of rights including providing information to the government which is currently illegal to do. There is no details regarding the methods which will be part of legislation, what is the criteria, appeals, defamation, malpractice, evaluation, etc.

Yes, it is dumb. And talk about a police state. Maybe we should just all use clear purses and knapsacks, and briefcases everywhere we go. Maybe we should wear see-through clothing too, just in case. Better yet, let’s all just walk around naked, just in case. That sure sounds like a free society.

It really reminds me of the TSA and other forms of airport security. Soon there will be shoe checks.

The person being selfish here sure sounds like you. You don’t want any gun control measures that would affect you personally, in the slightest.

I have proposed solution which target the perpetrators primarily rather than everyone.

What “amendment violations” was he talking about? Do you have some specifics?

4th and 14th. Namely privacy as per the backpacks and equal protection as it only targets students. As it is a public school government is involved.

You’re fine with the kids living in a police state. Just as long as it doesn’t affect you.

Nope. Parkland itself is an upper class areas thus enjoys the benefits of the wealth the social class brings. Better policing, lower crime, stronger family units, high property taxes thus better schools, etc. Solutions are applicable to location rather than the whole system.

Pardon?

IE they are dismissed a solution without looking at application outside their upper class bubble. Hence why some schools have metal detectors in high crime areas while upper class areas do not see the need. See the above

I’ve been saying all along we need better solutions than just beefing up security in schools. The kids that you despise so much seem to agree with me.

So?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I can't take anymore Fox News talking points.

 

[Shad]

I can't take anymore Fox News talking points.

Just because I share similar views does not mean I got my views from Fox News. If this is your angle I could of easily dismissed this whole thread due the primary media source involved, CNN.

 

[Shad]

David Hogg CSPAN | User Clip | C-SPAN.org

Around 16 min mark.