School shootings are students' own problem, learning CPR the solution, says Santorum.

[ImmortalFlame]

I am talking about individual actions beyond political activism.

It helps the community but they as individuals are not doing much. Anyone can be an activist. This is the difference between asking for say funding for the poor and working with the poor in shelters, etc. directly.

And how many of them do you know have done no charity work whatsoever? Do you have a record of that? How much charity work does a person have to put in before you consider their political activism or arguments valid?

No I am criticizing political activism as the only things people could be doing. They could be 30 for all I care.

See above. You have no idea what they're doing in their personal lives, but collectively they have achieved more for charity than you ever will or ever could. Stop talking down to them.

It seems like you want to make an exception to how they conduct themselves, and are responded to, because they are children. They stepped into the world of politics either willingly or as puppets of the media (there are children being used by both sides; see Fox News). They can call the NRA and other people murders, claim they are responsible, blah blah. Yet no one can respond in kind because they are children? Politics or children. Pick one.

Frankly what I have said was really mild so your point seems like a overreaction. There are people that wont even listen to a word they say ie ageism. Yet if one criticizes their actions and words that is out of line. Hilarious

What exception? Asking you not to talk down to them is not asking you for "an exception", it's asking you to treat them with at least some consideration and basic respect rather than ignoring them purely because you don't like the fact that they're using politics to effect wide social change rather than spending all their time... I don't know, volunteering at a homeless shelter? Your argument seems to be "I don't take their opinions or arguments seriously because they don't (as far as I know) partake in personal action, and their opinions are political, which is bad for some reason". That's not an argument, it's just a way to assure yourself of your own smug superiority to people actually trying to make a difference, and I find it gross.

 

[Shad]

And how many of them do you know have done no charity work whatsoever? Do you have a record of that?

Release of such information is upon the person in question. I can only judged what I see and hear.

How much charity work does a person have to put in before you consider their political activism or arguments valid?

Validity is not an issue nor is this a criteria I am talking about. I am talking about a bandwagon effect

See above. You have no idea what they're doing in their personal lives, but collectively they have achieved more for charity than you ever will or ever could.

I have worked directly with individuals at shelters and soup kitchens while advocating for increased funding and affordable housing. What have these children accomplished exactly?

Again amusing. You claim I can not make a low information based conclusion yet here you are doing the same thing.

Stop talking down to them.

What?

What exception? Asking you not to talk down to them is not asking you for "an exception", it's asking you to treat them with at least some consideration and basic respect rather than ignoring them purely because you don't like the fact that they're using politics to effect wide social change rather than spending all their time...

I am not ignoring them at all.

Before demanding respect perhaps you should look at what some of these kids have said. They can call people murderers, have blood on their hands, want to keep killing children, etc who happen to be their political opponents. Yet if I criticize them in a mild manner I am called out for it. Hilarious exception you have there.

I don't know, volunteering at a homeless shelter?

Guess I am doing more than any of them from what I see.

Your argument seems to be "I don't take their opinions or arguments seriously because they don't (as far as I know) partake in personal action, and their opinions are political, which is bad for some reason".

That isn't my argument.

That's not an argument, it's just a way to assure yourself of your own smug superiority to people actually trying to make a difference, and I find it gross.

Strawman spin and smearing. Yawn.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Release of such information is upon the person in question. I can only judged what I see and hear.



Validity is not an issue nor is this a criteria I am talking about. I am talking about a bandwagon effect



I have worked directly with individuals at shelters and soup kitchens while advocating for increased funding and affordable housing. What have these children accomplished exactly?

Again amusing. You claim I can not make a low information based conclusion yet here you are doing the same thing.




What?




I am not ignoring them at all.

Before demanding respect perhaps you should look at what some of these kids have said. They can call people murderers, have blood on their hands, want to keep killing children, etc who happen to be their political opponents. Yet if I criticize them in a mild manner I am called out for it. Hilarious exception you have there.



Guess I am doing more than any of them from what I see.



That isn't my argument.




Strawman spin and smearing. Yawn.

Oh, did you start a movement for change that swept across the entire country and many parts of the world? Please share.

 

[Shad]

Oh, did you start a movement for change that swept across the entire country and many parts of the world? Please share.

I do not have organizations banking my political activism. They do.... I do not have parents, as I am an adult, nor school turning a blind eye to activism when there are education obligations. I do not get to skip work nor school without consequences, they do. They have become poster children and enjoy the benefits of that. I have bills to pay, they don't. The students have merely been co-opted by existing groups as the event they were involved in was recent. They are saying nothing new besides a foul mouth.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I do not have organizations banking my political activism. They do.... I do not have parents, as I am an adult, nor school turning a blind eye to activism when there are education obligations. I do not get to skip work nor school without consequences, they do. They have become poster children and enjoy the benefits of that. I have bills to pay, they don't. The students have merely been co-opted by existing groups as the event they were involved in was recent. They are saying nothing new besides a foul mouth.

Sounds like sour grapes to me.

 

[Shad]

Sounds like sour grapes to me.

Nope. Just a reality adults face that most children do not.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I do not have organizations banking my political activism. They do.... I do not have parents, as I am an adult, nor school turning a blind eye to activism when there are education obligations. I do not get to skip work nor school without consequences, they do. They have become poster children and enjoy the benefits of that. I have bills to pay, they don't. The students have merely been co-opted by existing groups as the event they were involved in was recent. They are saying nothing new besides a foul mouth.

So, no? Okay then, thanks. Remember that next time you're dumping on a bunch of kids who started a global movement after watching their friends being gunned down in front of their eyes.

You know why they have organizations backing their activism? Because they sought them out and asked for support.
They "skipped school" for 17 minutes one day to draw attention to their cause. (I don't know about you, but I'm allowed to take 17 minutes off from work for a break or a lunch. I can even call in sick if I'm feeling under the weather. I am also an adult.) Then, a few weeks later on a SATURDAY held an all-day protest that caught the attention of the entire country and the people of other countries around the world that joined in.
They are poster children because, unfortunately, they had to live through a massacre in a place where they are supposed to feel safe.

I really don't get what all this demonization of these kids is about. I'm sure they prefer to not have had to live through this horror in the first place.


I don't know what your reference to being a "foul mouth" is about either.

And honestly, this just comes off like whining to me.

 

[Shad]

So, no? Okay then, thanks. Remember that next time you're dumping on a bunch of kids who started a global movement after watching their friends being gunned down in front of their eyes.

Irrelevant point and standard. One does not need to be part of a movement nor start one to level criticism

You know why they have organizations backing their activism? Because they sought them out and asked for support.

They called for a generalized support which was readily available. Big deal.

They "skipped school" for 17 minutes one day to draw attention to their cause. (I don't know about you, but I'm allowed to take 17 minutes off from work for a break or a lunch. I can even call in sick if I'm feeling under the weather. I am also an adult.) Then, a few weeks later on a SATURDAY held an all-day protest that caught the attention of the entire country and the people of other countries around the world that joined in.

Actually one, Hoggs, has missed days and tests without repercussions. There have been walkouts without repercussions.

They are poster children because, unfortunately, they had to live through a massacre in a place where they are supposed to feel safe.

Yup which means they are puppets of media and various groups to exploit just as Fox does with that 2A kids Kyle. Hence the emotional aspect is harmed home rather than any really policy.

I really don't get what all this demonization of these kids is about.

They should of stayed out of politics and never started with demonization at the Townhall CNN.

I don't know what your reference to being a "foul mouth" is about either.

A lot having issues with speaking without swearing.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Release of such information is upon the person in question. I can only judged what I see and hear.

And you don't see or hear these teenager's private contributions to charity, so don't judge them as having none without knowing.

Validity is not an issue nor is this a criteria I am talking about. I am talking about a bandwagon effect

And clearly they are just jumping on a bandwagon. It couldn't possibly be that they're campaigning for gun control because they have personal experience of themselves and their friends being shot at in a school or anything.

I have worked directly with individuals at shelters and soup kitchens while advocating for increased funding and affordable housing. What have these children accomplished exactly?

Raised millions for charity and started a national campaign with the aim of enacting legislation that could potentially alter the law and save hundreds, if not thousands, of lives.

Again amusing. You claim I can not make a low information based conclusion yet here you are doing the same thing.

So you admit that you're making erroneous conclusions, then?

I am not ignoring them at all.

Before demanding respect perhaps you should look at what some of these kids have said. They can call people murderers, have blood on their hands, want to keep killing children, etc who happen to be their political opponents. Yet if I criticize them in a mild manner I am called out for it. Hilarious exception you have there.

How dare teenagers call people whose actions result in death murderers. No, surely you have just as much justification as they do. Because this is all about you, not dead teenagers, clearly.

Guess I am doing more than any of them from what I see.

A perfect example of how this actually has nothing to do with any actual campaign and more to do with your delicate ego.

That isn't my argument.

It is literally your argument.

Strawman spin and smearing. Yawn.

When in doubt, patronize. Great work.

 

[Shad]

And you don't see or hear these teenager's private contributions to charity, so don't judge them as having none without knowing.

I can certainly judge them by their actions and words which lack any focus on individual activists.

And clearly they are just jumping on a bandwagon. It couldn't possibly be that they're campaigning for gun control because they have personal experience of themselves and their friends being shot at in a school or anything.

Hence it is only an issue when it effects them at a personal level.

Raised millions for charity and started a national campaign with the aim of enacting legislation that could potentially alter the law and save hundreds, if not thousands, of lives.

Lobbying, fund raising and charity is common for political activism left and right.

So you admit that you're making erroneous conclusions, then?

Nope read it is again. I am pointing out a double standard used by you to create a conclusion. I provided new information by which you can modify that conclusion. I established your conclusion was wrong. Whereas you have provided no new information thus contribute nothing by which my conclusion will be changed.

How dare teenagers call people whose actions result in death murderers.

The NRA killed no one. Rubio has no blood on his hands. It is a typical guilt by association using the weakest of subjects.

No, surely you have just as much justification as they do. Because this is all about you, not dead teenagers, clearly.

They are advocating legislation and methodology I do not support and is frankly simplistic that it is merely rhetorical nonsense. They are willing to trade freedoms for security by ignoring the means for the sake of a goal. Their solutions effect everyone from those that murder to those that never have.

A perfect example of how this actually has nothing to do with any actual campaign and more to do with your delicate ego.

Wrong. I am doing ground work with individuals that has an effect on their lives right now. They are being political activists.

It is literally your argument.

Nope. I do not take their solutions serious as I disagree with their solutions as mentioned above. If you wish to get into details ask questions.

When in doubt, patronize. Great work.

Nope. Just pointing out your error and the capacity of your imagination.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I can certainly judge them by their actions and words which lack any focus on individual activists.

That doesn't even make sense.

Hence it is only an issue when it effects them at a personal level.

Or, their experience inspired them to try and prevent other people from experiencing the same thing. Do you not see how ridiculously twisted your logic is here? By this standard, holocaust survivors campaigning against fascism and cancer survivors raising money for cancer research fall under the same umbrella.

Selfish jerks, eh?

Lobbying, fund raising and charity is common for political activism left and right.

Agreed. What's your problem with it? The point is that they have, and are, achieving far more than you give them credit for.

Nope read it is again. I am pointing out a double standard used by you to create a conclusion. I provided new information by which you can modify that conclusion. I established your conclusion was wrong. Whereas you have provided no new information thus contribute nothing by which my conclusion will be changed.

But you admitted that you were operating without information - ergo, you conclusion is baseless.

The NRA killed no one. Rubio has no blood on his hands. It is a typical guilt by association using the weakest of subjects.

The NRA actively campaigns against sensible gun regulation and research into the causes of gun violence. Their lobbying has almost certainly resulted in many people who should not have had access to guns having access to guns. You may disagree with that, but to disparage people merely for taking that position is short-sighted and dismissive.

They are advocating legislation and methodology I do not support and is frankly simplistic that it is merely rhetorical nonsense. They are willing to trade freedoms for security by ignoring the means for the sake of a goal. Their solutions effect everyone from those that murder to those that never have.

They're calling for greater gun regulation and research into the causes of gun violence and funding for mental health services. Whose freedoms are being traded?

Wrong. I am doing ground work with individuals that has an effect on their lives right now. They are being political activists.

Once again, bringing your own ego into the debate. Nobody is arguing for ego regulation - the issue is gun regulation.

Nope. I do not take their solutions serious as I disagree with their solutions as mentioned above. If you wish to get into details ask questions.

And what, exactly, is wrong with their solutions? What specific issues do you see with their proposals?

Nope. Just pointing out your error and the capacity of your imagination.

... Says the guy who makes up stuff about teenagers.

 

[Shad]

That doesn't even make sense.

It makes perfect sense as I am judging them by what they have said and done.

Or, their experience inspired them to try and prevent other people from experiencing the same thing.

Inspiration can be still self-serving.

Do you not see how ridiculously twisted your logic is here? By this standard, holocaust survivors campaigning against fascism

cough Israel cough

and cancer survivors raising money for cancer research fall under the same umbrella.

Did they donate before they had cancer or after it effected them?

There is a difference between supporting something when it does not effect you and only supporting something when it does effect you.

Selfish jerks, eh?

No just selective in their application of who is effected by their solutions.

Agreed. What's your problem with it?

I was only pointing out it is very common.

The point is that they have, and are, achieving far more than you give them credit for.

Who is the one claiming they will change the world? Not I. I am tempering their achievements to reality.

But you admitted that you were operating without information - ergo, you conclusion is baseless.

Nope I said low information not no information repeatedly. That does not make it baseless.

The NRA actively campaigns against sensible gun regulation and research into the causes of gun violence.

Sensible is subjective as you are not providing any examples.

You do realize those causes include more than just guns right?

Their lobbying has almost certainly resulted in many people who should not have had access to guns having access to guns.

Such as?

You may disagree with that, but to disparage people merely for taking that position is short-sighted and dismissive.

I disagree with their dismissive attitude and demonization of people that do not agree with them. I reject their solutions due to issues already pointed out

They're calling for greater gun regulation and research into the causes of gun violence and funding for mental health services. Whose freedoms are being traded?

Regulations can be problematic depends on the methods used which can violate the 14th.

Once again, bringing your own ego into the debate. Nobody is arguing for ego regulation - the issue is gun regulation.

Not really. I am pointing out the difference between working with people and being a political activist. I just used myself as an example.

And what, exactly, is wrong with their solutions?

Access of private information in the hands of government. doctor/patients confidentiality, violation of the 14th, regulation which effect everyone.

What specific issues do you see with their proposals?

Increased power granted to the government in order to create a solution.

... Says the guy who makes up stuff about teenagers.

I never made up anything. The OP was about a question. Are they doing anything more than activism. No one has answered that yet. All you and others have done is throw shade and speculation without providing a single example of any getting their hands dirty.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It makes perfect sense as I am judging them by what they have said and done.

But you're asserting things about them that you don't know, and have admitted to not knowing. You're not actually judging them by their actions, but your perception of what they do in their own time without disclosing it.

Inspiration can be still self-serving.

So you would say that the examples I gave were people being self-serving?

cough Israel cough

Er, what?

Did they donate before they had cancer or after it effected them?

There is a difference between supporting something when it does not effect you and only supporting something when it does effect you.

So you're seriously saying these people are selfish? Really?

I'm almost entirely done with you. This is the kind of cringe-worthy argument I made when I was 12.

No just selective in their application of who is effected by their solutions.

So who would be affected?

I was only pointing out it is very common.

What does its frequency have to do with anything?

Who is the one claiming they will change the world? Not I. I am tempering their achievements to reality.

No, you're dismissing their very attempts to enact change merely for the very fact that they are trying.

Nope I said low information not no information repeatedly. That does not make it baseless.

So do you have any information on how much charity they do in their own time?

Sensible is subjective as you are not providing any examples.

Expanded background checks, increasing minimum age, banning assault weapons, closing gun show loopholes.

You do realize those causes include more than just guns right?

Sure. Your point?

Such as?

Every person who legally obtained firearms despite suffering from mental imbalances and homicidal tendancies.

I disagree with their dismissive attitude and demonization of people that do not agree with them. I reject their solutions due to issues already pointed out

Then ignore that - focus on their arguments. What do you disagree with in their arguments?

Regulations can be problematic depends on the methods used which can violate the 14th.

So what regulations are they proposing that violate the 14th (or 2nd)?

Not really. I am pointing out the difference between working with people and being a political activist. I just used myself as an example.

And this is relevant how?

Access of private information in the hands of government. doctor/patients confidentiality, violation of the 14th, regulation which effect everyone.

Okay - so what communication should exist between mental health professionals and security or police forces?

Increased power granted to the government in order to create a solution.

So you disagree with any regulation of any kind? What kind of regulation would you accept?

I never made up anything. The OP was about a question. Are they doing anything more than activism. No one has answered that yet. All you and others have done is throw shade and speculation without providing a single example of any getting their hands dirty.

You have asserted that they haven't. You have provided no evidence of this assertion. You just made it up.

So stop saying it when you clearly have no idea.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

santorum is seriously in need of a brain transplant.
one from a snake would be an improvement.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Irrelevant point and standard. One does not need to be part of a movement nor start one to level criticism

When one is complaining and claiming that these kids aren't doing anything productive when they actually are doing something productive, I think it's very relevant.

They called for a generalized support which was readily available. Big deal.

And they got it because it's a good cause. I don't know why you're whining about this.

It does seem to be a pretty big deal. They seem to have garnered a lot of support for their cause. Perhaps there is a reason for that.

They've also raised a bunch of money for the victims and their families. Big deal, right?

Actually one, Hoggs, has missed days and tests without repercussions. There have been walkouts without repercussions.

Wow, one guy. Why don't you let him and his parents worry about that?

Funny how you ignored the whole bit about them organizing and showing up to a country-wide march on a Saturday. Looks like maybe they're into more than just getting 17 minutes off from school.

Yup which means they are puppets of media and various groups to exploit just as Fox does with that 2A kids Kyle. Hence the emotional aspect is harmed home rather than any really policy.

How does that mean they are "puppets of the media and various groups"??

They've already inspired policy change in their own state, and other states are joining in now as well. Seems like their actions are turning out to be pretty effective.

They should of stayed out of politics and never started with demonization at the Townhall CNN.

Why? Their actions are turning out real change. More than any adult has managed to do, thus far.

A lot having issues with speaking without swearing.

Which ones? And why do you care? Adults can handle a little swearing, can't they?

 

[Shad]

When one is complaining and claiming that these kids aren't doing anything productive when they actually are doing something productive, I think it's very relevant.

I question your idea of productive.

And they got it because it's a good cause. I don't know why you're whining about this.

Good causes become undermined by the methods used to accomplish it. Asking for donations isn't hard.

It does seem to be a pretty big deal. They seem to have garnered a lot of support for their cause. Perhaps there is a reason for that.

Support for control existed for decades. All they did was ask for what already existed.

They've also raised a bunch of money for the victims and their families. Big deal, right?

Support for the victims and family existed prior to their call for support of it.

Wow, one guy. Why don't you let him and his parents worry about that?

Except his parents are encouraging him while the media goes out of it's way to give him air time. Your solution failed from the start as you are ignoring how much people are bending over backwards for him.

[Funny how you ignored the whole bit about them organizing and showing up to a country-wide march on a Saturday.

Existing organizations comprised of adults organized the march.

Looks like maybe they're into more than just getting 17 minutes off from school.

Sure. However part of my point is that they are not being suspended nor expelled for violating the schools rules regarding attendance. Political activism is not a justified reason for missing school. Yet the school not only does not enforce it's own policy it supports his agenda hence a public school is endorsing a political movement. That is a major problem.

How does that mean they are "puppets of the media and various groups"??

Go look at some interviews and how channels such as CNN let the children lie. Heck CNN admitted it after getting flack for it. Go look at which organizations support which kids. Fox has its pro-2A poster child while CNN has it's poster child. Both companies have had their agendas and biases exposed at length.

They've already inspired policy change in their own state, and other states are joining in now as well. Seems like their actions are turning out to be pretty effective.

Policy which they are now complaining about. ID, security checks, door access, clear backpacks. The same children are now claiming violation of the 1st, 4th and 14th Amendments. Ironic how they complain when the changes effect them personally but ignore solution which violate rights they do not exercise.

Why? Their actions are turning out real change. More than any adult has managed to do, thus far.

Said changes already existed in many forms in other schools and states.

Adults created the changes, adults implemented the changes. Not a single one of those children was involved in that process. And those changes were only applicable to that school. Changes which those students object to.

Which ones? And why do you care? Adults can handle a little swearing, can't they?

There is way to conduct yourself in public and as a public speaker with people you do not know and people that do not know you. These children have not learned that yet nor have you it seems. Also the swearing is used as part of demonization of those that do not agree. Swearing also show a lack of vocabulary and the inability to communicate ideas with words properly.

 

[SkepticThinker]

 

[Underhill]

Demonizing protesters is nothing new. It's a common tactic used (mostly by the right) to distract from the message.

Although I will admit that the left did do their share of demonizing with the Nazi protestors... then again they were, you know, Nazi's.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Demonizing protesters is nothing new. It's a common tactic used (mostly by the right) to distract from the message.

Although I will admit that the left did do their share of demonizing with the Nazi protestors... then again they were, you know, Nazi's.

Lol, the Nazis made themselves demons. We don't need to add anything to make them any worse as they reached the bottom of their own volition.

 

[fantome profane]

Although I will admit that the left did do their share of demonizing with the Nazi protestors... then again they were, you know, Nazi's.

Comparing Nazis to Demons is really unfair.

To the Demons.