We Never Know
No Slack
There was no pre. Take from that whatever you want. Maybe @Polymath257 can help you understand.
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Science and hell
- Thread starter questfortruth
- Start date
McBell
Unbound
"there was no pre" does absolutely nothing to clarify "there was no pre anything"....
questfortruth
Well-Known Member
Sentences:
1. there is no pre,
2 pre is no pre.
are the same. Tautology. Nobody can describe 100% a miracle.
More accurately, in some models there simply is no 'before the Big Bang' any more than there is a 'north of the North Pole'. The term 'before' simply loses meaning at that point.
The point is that there simply is no 'before the Big Bang'. it isn't that there was nothing before the Big Bang. It is that the concept of 'before' simply isn't coherent at the Big Bang singularity.
Edit: I am working in the standard model of General Relativity for this.
Although science is about the study of material existence, because it is based on reason, it can assist religion in weeding out superstitious myths such as satan and hell which make no sense whatsoever and are not part of physical reality.
I believe when the fine tooth comb of science is run through religion, then what is remaining will be what is useful and practical instead of all the nonsensical superstition blindly believed today.
For example it is scientifically impossible for dead bodies to rise from the dead or people to walk on water or that Jesus enters a person through the drinking of wine and bread. Science is required to debunk such fallacies which give religion a very bad name and actually has nothing to do with religion at all.
The purpose of true religion is to create noble beings and love and unity amongst people yet, through the lack of science and reason it has become a playground for the ignorant who thrive on the miraculous and superstitious in order to claim some superiority of their religion over others - a purely egotistical pursuit not a spiritual or godly one.
I believe when the fine tooth comb of science is run through religion, then what is remaining will be what is useful and practical instead of all the nonsensical superstition blindly believed today.
For example it is scientifically impossible for dead bodies to rise from the dead or people to walk on water or that Jesus enters a person through the drinking of wine and bread. Science is required to debunk such fallacies which give religion a very bad name and actually has nothing to do with religion at all.
The purpose of true religion is to create noble beings and love and unity amongst people yet, through the lack of science and reason it has become a playground for the ignorant who thrive on the miraculous and superstitious in order to claim some superiority of their religion over others - a purely egotistical pursuit not a spiritual or godly one.
You are just beating a dead horse.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Goes to show how much you were paying attention.
The point made was that the god you described, is a god that rewards gullibility and punishes rational thinking and intellectual honesty.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
None that I know of, nore would be interested in.
However, there are lots of classes that teach people who to use logic and reason properly. Perhaps you should check that out in the near future.
No, that common denominator that you are noticing is just proper use of reason.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
You can start by expanding your sources to more then just the bible or bible apologists.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Off course it confuses me. It confuses everyone. We physical beings who grew up on the scale of classical physics and in our daily life don't have to deal with quantum weirdness or effects of traveling at the speed of light or being in proximity of the strange gravitational effects of black holes... we didn't evolve to comprehend what it means for there to be no time dimension. Or space dimension for that matter. The very idea of space expanding, which actually happens constantly all around us, is something that we can't wrap our minds around.
None of this however changes the point I made.
I can only repeat myself: whatever realm / dimension / <insert-your-word-of-choice> that brought forth the universe, if there is such a thing, would be part of the natural state of affairs. ie, nature.
If the multi-verse exists, then the multiverse is part of nature. Both now and "before" our universe existed
ElishaElijah
Return
Like what or who? Haven’t seen anything reliable. I spent the first part of my life with sources similar to yours, unreliable and nothing there, no help for life, ended up shipwrecked. Last part of my life with God has been blessing and fruitfulness in every area of my life. Not going back
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ElishaElijah
Return
I answered that point, either you didn’t understand me or didn’t like what I posted. But your comment is false. I was paying attention and by your response thought to make sure I understood you so asked your point, thanks for sharing it again and stand by my comments that God has been clear about what He expects and has revealed to everyone the reward for trusting Him and submitting to His Lordship and the rewards for disobedience, rebellion and rejecting His Lordship and authority. Everyone knows and there will be no need for science when standing face to face with God at that point. God is not going to submit to His creation and stop being God, He can’t and won’t.
We Never Know
No Slack
Evidently I've struck a sore nerve with you when I brought up about you picking at people that believe in the same god as you believe in. So instead of coming to most of the thread's I'm on and making this same lame comment over and over, would you like to discuss it so maybe you would feel better?
We Never Know
No Slack
If there are multi-universes many things would change. Until then see post #124 and #125
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
You did not.
It's not. It's a perfectly valid conclusion from what you said.
Here's what you said: "This is all done by believing that Christ died for your sins, was buried and rose the third day according to the Scriptures"
So the "reward" of eternal bliss is predicated on you believing something which is extra-ordinary and for which no evidence at all exists. To believe such a claim, is to be gullible.
A rational, intellectually honest person could never believe such claims on "faith". Or any claim on "faith", for that matter.
Hence: your god rewards gullibility and punishes rational reasoning and intellectual honesty.
And what he expects, is for humans to be gullible and ignore intellectual honesty and rational reasoning.
He will punish those who don't.
No. Nobody knows. You and your fellow theists believe. You don't "know".
Atheists like me, don't believe.
Because intellectual honesty doesn't matter.
"I know the scientific fact is that the ball falls down due to gravity, but you refused to believe on faith that it actually falls up instead, so to hellfire with you!"
If you say so.
None of this takes away from the point that the god you describe rewards gullibility and punishes rational reasoning and intellectual honesty.
ElishaElijah
Return
I gave you Romans 1 that explains, did you read that and not understand it? If so I can explain how God has made Himself known and everyone is without excuse. But, if you believe that gullibility thing go ahead,‘it’s just not true.
ElishaElijah
Return
I do know that’s the point and science won’t be needed when you’re standing before God giving an account for your life. Everyone knows at that point
ElishaElijah
Return
A rational person looks at Creation and would realize there must be a Creator, someone engineered and planned this. Now pay attention because this is the faith part... Having faith that there is a Creator because of what we see and experience in the natural world is what causes a person to call out to and seek this God. When a person calls out to God is when God shows Himself to that person, when He reveals Himself to that person He gives that person an opportunity to enter into a covenant relationship through Jesus Christ and He gives His Holy Spirit to that person and enables them to talk to and hear God now.
But this still begs the question of whether there *was* anything that 'brought forth' the universe. If there was no 'before', then there was no 'bringing forth'.
Agreed. But the multiverse model is not the only model.