Science and hell

[TagliatelliMonster]

But this still begs the question of whether there *was* anything that 'brought forth' the universe. If there was no 'before', then there was no 'bringing forth'.

Sure. But the fact is that the universe did come about. Yes, in current understanding, there is no "before" - not even a "where" - of how and when and why and...
But the fact is also that I need to use words to talk about it, and our words just happen to be extremely linked to a temporal context in which up, down, left and right are a thing.

But let's consider the multiverse. The word "before", I guess, still is invalid.
But the multiverse surely can be said to be a "realm" that "brings forth" universes. To "bring forth"' however is once again something that implies temporal causation, which does not apply - or not necessarily anyway. Hence the quotes. The problem is that whenever we are going to talk about the origination of the universe, we are going to have to use a verbe to refer to that. And verbes are pretty much temporal as they refer to actions or processes that take place over time.

Not sure if I'm making much sense here. It's way over my head. I'm just trying to make sense of it with my low-key layman's interpretation of it all.

Agreed. But the multiverse model is not the only model.

Yes, I'm aware of that.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I gave you Romans 1 that explains,

It explains nothing. It only confirms my point.

This god rewards gullibility and punishes rational reasoning.

If so I can explain how God has made Himself known and everyone is without excuse.

Claiming it, does not make it so.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I do know

No, you don't. You believe.
Knowing and merely believing, are not the same thing.

that’s the point and science won’t be needed when you’re standing before God giving an account for your life. Everyone knows at that point

At that point, perhaps. But then it's already too late. Because you weren't gullible while alive.

See, even in the extremely unlikely event that these claims of yours are actually correct, it would still be gullible to believe them today, because there is zero objective verifiable evidence to support these claims.

To believe such claims "on faith", is exactly what gullibility is.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

A rational person looks at Creation and would realize there must be a Creator, someone engineered and planned this

There would have to be objective independently verifiable evidence for that, along with a demonstration that this creator actually exists, before that would be a rational stance to take.

And there is no such evidence. So, no.

For example, it is in no way rational to believe the bible creation myth while all the evidence literally screams evolution. In fact, not only would that be gullible, it would be downright irrational, as it flies in the face of all the known facts.

Now pay attention because this is the faith part... Having faith that there is a Creator because of what we see and experience in the natural world is what causes a person to call out to and seek this God.

A rational person would not believe such a thing on faith - or anything else for that matter.
I can not honestly and sincerely believe such a thing. Evidence is what convinces me. Not things that are merely comforting or other such fuzzy feelings.

When a person calls out to God is when God shows Himself to that person, when He reveals Himself to that person

Yea, it's called wishfull thinking and self-delusion.

This is why we have people from competing and mutually exclusive religions who'll both claim to have their respective gods "revealed to them".

This is not evidence. It's anecdotal nonsense which is indistinguishable from honestly being mistaken, lying or plain old hallucination.

He gives that person an opportunity to enter into a covenant relationship through Jesus Christ and He gives His Holy Spirit to that person and enables them to talk to and hear God now.

And, just as the point I made.... that person has to believe on faith for that to happen and worse still, has to believe on faith that it actually happened as well.

Once again, the reward goes to the gullible and the punishment to the rational thinker.

 

[ElishaElijah]

No, you don't. You believe.
Knowing and merely believing, are not the same thing.



At that point, perhaps. But then it's already too late. Because you weren't gullible while alive.

See, even in the extremely unlikely event that these claims of yours are actually correct, it would still be gullible to believe them today, because there is zero objective verifiable evidence to support these claims.

To believe such claims "on faith", is exactly what gullibility is.

Ok, do you understand how faith works? I did explain that. My original post, When is science moot you just agreed with and that’s what I was saying. All the back and forth arguments, all the fallacies, everyone’s motives will be exposed on that Day.

 

[ElishaElijah]

This is not evidence. It's anecdotal nonsense which is indistinguishable from honestly being mistaken, lying or plain old hallucination.

These are comments made by you who has no knowledge of the people sharing their stories. You believe a hallucination or a lie will get a person through? No way
You need any help with that limp?

 

[ElishaElijah]

This god rewards gullibility and punishes rational reasoning.

How does He punish rational thinking? Explain that one? Explain how we got here and all we see came into being? That’s not rational but absurd to believe it’s by chance, height of gullible right there

 

[Aupmanyav]

This (returning back to the state of void, the state before one's birth) is the worst case which could happen to a human being after death. So there is no reason to be worried about one’s afterlife

Yeah, nothing to be worried about, and I see no reason to fear Allah. Allah is not an ogre. It is more like Hinduism. You did not do it well, you are sent again in hope that you will do better. Simple.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The problem is that whenever we are going to talk about the origination of the universe, we are going to have to use a verbe to refer to that. And verbes are pretty much temporal as they refer to actions or processes that take place over time.

Take the non-dual Hindu path - Advaita. There is no universe, it is an illusion. All problems solved.

Brahma satyam, jagan-mithya .. (Brahman alone is the truth, the perceived is false)
Adi (the first) Sankaracharya, possibly 8th Century CE.

Jagat, the world, the universe: What we perceive in when awake.

 

[KerimF]

Yeah, nothing to be worried about, and I see no reason to fear Allah. Allah is not an ogre. It is more like Hinduism. You did not do it well, you are sent again in hope that you will do better. Simple.

Thank you, I didn't know how afterlife is supposed to be for Hindus.

But this raises the following questions in mind:
[1] He will be better to whom?
[2] He will be better in which respects?
[3] Is there an absolute list of good and evil to be observed by Hindus?
[4] What will happen to a Hindu when he will reach perfection in his last life on earth?

Please note that you don't have to answer any of my questions above. I wrote them just as an expression of what I had in mind after I read your point about afterlife.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Ok, do you understand how faith works?

Yes. It's what you need to accept something as true when you don't have an actual good reason.

I did explain that. My original post, When is science moot you just agreed with and that’s what I was saying

I agreed to no such thing.
Science isn't moot. Science is our best way of understanding reality.
How could our best way of understanding reality every be "moot"?

All the back and forth arguments, all the fallacies, everyone’s motives will be exposed on that Day.

All of this preaching, still doesn't change anything about the point I made, nore does it even address it.

The god you defined, is a god that rewards gullibility and irrationality, while punishing rational reasoning and intellectual honesty.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

These are comments made by you who has no knowledge of the people sharing their stories.

I don't need knowledge the people sharing their stories. I need knowledge of the evidence that supports their stories. Otherwise, all they have are indeed just stories.

You believe a hallucination or a lie will get a person through? No way

Through what?
And you forgot "honestly mistaken", which is another option.

You need any help with that limp?

What are you talking about?



Anyhow, let's turn it around... suppose a guy comes up to you and in all sincerity claims any of the following:
- I met Lord Krishna last night
- the angel Gibreel appeared to me and told me islam is the true religion and I should become muslim
- aliens kidnapped me last night and took me unto their space ship where they performed weird sexual experiments on me

And in all 3 cases, the dude passes a lie detector test with flying colors, meaning he's not lying and actually really believes these claims. And all you have, is his anecdote. No evidence whatsoever.

Well... then, would you believe Krishna is real? Would you become a muslim? Would you believe aliens are kidnapping humans?

I'm gonna go ahead and venture a guess and predict that your answer would be "no" on all accounts.

Now, let's add another random person who comes up and in equal sincerity claims that Jesus revealed himself to him.

I bet a bazillion dollars that you won't even care about the result of the lie detector test and likely just believe that person, no questions asked.

Think about that for a second before you smash the reply button and spam bible verses again.
Take a step back, be honest with yourself and truly ask yourself if that would be the case and if so, why you hold different standards for the claims of the first person as opposed to the claims of the second.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

How does He punish rational thinking? Explain that one?

Rational thinking would not lead to believing claims that aren't supported by verifiable evidence, especially not when it concerns extra-ordinary claims. So such thinking would not lead to believing in virgin births and resurrections and supernatural entities in human form and what-not.

So according to your theology, what will god do to people who don't believe the bible claims and thus aren't christians?

Explain how we got here and all we see came into being?

That's not even a little relevant to the point at hand.
So in order to make sure the actual point isn't derailed into oblivion, I'll just go ahead and pretend to be completely oblivious to sciences like biology, bio-chemistry, genetics, physics, chemistry, geology, etc etc etc etc ... and say "I don't know".

It literally doesn't matter either.
Me having answers (or not) is not relevant to wheter or not it is rational to believe some completely different claim.

That’s not rational but absurd to believe it’s by chance, height of gullible right there

Your very own birth was by chance.
Go back 5 generations and calculate the odds of all the events that had to take place so that your parents would be able to meet up and produce you.

In fact, even only the timing of them having sex was a major factor in YOU being born instead of a virtual sibling. In fact, during their intercourse, your dad deposited millions of spermcells. Only one would have resulted in you. Among those millions of others, surely there were great potential athletes, scientists, authors, educators,... or gangsters, psychopaths, master criminals,...
Instead, you won that lottery ticket.

Chance / probability rules reality.

 

[Aupmanyav]

But this raises the following questions in mind:
[1] He will be better to whom?
[2] He will be better in which respects?
[3] Is there an absolute list of good and evil to be observed by Hindus?
[4] What will happen to a Hindu when he will reach perfection in his last life on earth?

KerimF, you are always welcome.
1. & 2. Better than the person he/she was in his/her previous life. And what is 'being better'? Fulfilling one's responsibilities in life to his/her family, society and country (that is 'Dharma") is considered better.
3. It is simple. "Paropakaram punyaya, papaya parapeedanam" (Helping others is merit, causing pain to others is sin).
4. It depends on the views of a person. Just like Catholics and Protestants may have different views, just like Sunnis and Shias may have different views, the views of people in Hinduism will differ according to the view they follow. After living a perfect life:
a) a Hindu may live eternally in proximity of his/her deity,
b) a Hindu may merge with his deity, and
c) a Hindu may realize the relationship between him/her and all the rest of things that exist in the universe. That will be termed as enlightenment, coming to know the secret of life and universe. That is achievement of all things and there is nothing to aspire beyond it.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Rational thinking would not lead to believing claims that aren't supported by verifiable evidence, especially not when it concerns extra-ordinary claims. So such thinking would not lead to believing in virgin births and resurrections and supernatural entities in human form and what-not.

So according to your theology, what will god do to people who don't believe the bible claims and thus aren't christians?



That's not even a little relevant to the point at hand.
So in order to make sure the actual point isn't derailed into oblivion, I'll just go ahead and pretend to be completely oblivious to sciences like biology, bio-chemistry, genetics, physics, chemistry, geology, etc etc etc etc ... and say "I don't know".

It literally doesn't matter either.
Me having answers (or not) is not relevant to wheter or not it is rational to believe some completely different claim.



Your very own birth was by chance.
Go back 5 generations and calculate the odds of all the events that had to take place so that your parents would be able to meet up and produce you.

In fact, even only the timing of them having sex was a major factor in YOU being born instead of a virtual sibling. In fact, during their intercourse, your dad deposited millions of spermcells. Only one would have resulted in you. Among those millions of others, surely there were great potential athletes, scientists, authors, educators,... or gangsters, psychopaths, master criminals,...
Instead, you won that lottery ticket.

Chance / probability rules reality.

I already explained faith and you will have to go back because by your comments appears you didn’t understand what I was saying. My faith is not blind faith based on nothing. My birth was known to God and so was yours so none of this is by chance. God knows everything from beginning to end. He already knows the free will decisions we will make.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Rational thinking would not lead to believing claims that aren't supported by verifiable evidence,

I see evidence of God through everything He has created.

 

[metis]

If God specifically made each of us as is, then how does one explain a miscarriage? or severe mental or physical handicaps?

There's a theological perspective that has it that God made our universe and world to be imperfect so it is ours to deal with and hopefully improve upon. OTOH, if everything was perfect, then the universe and world would only be His.

 

[KerimF]

KerimF, you are always welcome.
1. & 2. Better than the person he/she was in his/her previous life. And what is 'being better'? Fulfilling one's responsibilities in life to his/her family, society and country (that is 'Dharma") is considered better.
3. It is simple. "Paropakaram punyaya, papaya parapeedanam" (Helping others is merit, causing pain to others is sin).
4. It depends on the views of a person. Just like Catholics and Protestants may have different views, just like Sunnis and Shias may have different views, the views of people in Hinduism will differ according to the view they follow. After living a perfect life:
a) a Hindu may live eternally in proximity of his/her deity,
b) a Hindu may merge with his deity, and
c) a Hindu may realize the relationship between him/her and all the rest of things that exist in the universe. That will be termed as enlightenment, coming to know the secret of life and universe. That is achievement of all things and there is nothing to aspire beyond it.

Thank you for giving me more insight of what you think about life and afterlife.

Let us think together (if you don't mind) about the 4th answer.

The material world doesn't need to exist eternally for those who will deserve (a) or (b). But, from this perceptive, we can also see the material world as a temporary firm which was built by perfect spiritual entities to produce more perfect spiritual beings by allowing imperfect material beings (humans) to become perfect spiritual beings.

For (c), the material world (universe) is eternal in which all humans will end up being enlightened. I guess, since the number of humans, the revived ones from previous lives and the new ones, will be too big (going to infinity with time), humans will have to find out the ability to move from Earth and live on other planets as well. But this number can have an upper limit if the enlightened humans (who will reach perfection) are not supposed to breed anymore.

You are welcome to add, correct and/or omit what you see necessary to do.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Anthropic means “relating to human beings or their existence.” Principle means “law.” The Anthropic Principle is the Law of Human Existence. It is well known that our existence in this universe depends on numerous cosmological constants and parameters whose numerical values must fall within a very narrow range of values. If even a single variable were off, even slightly, we would not exist. The extreme improbability that so many variables would align so auspiciously in our favor merely by chance has led some scientists and philosophers to propose instead that it was God who providentially engineered the universe to suit our specific needs. This is the Anthropic Principle: that the universe appears to have been fine-tuned for our existence.

 

[McBell]

Anthropic means “relating to human beings or their existence.” Principle means “law.” The Anthropic Principle is the Law of Human Existence. It is well known that our existence in this universe depends on numerous cosmological constants and parameters whose numerical values must fall within a very narrow range of values. If even a single variable were off, even slightly, we would not exist. The extreme improbability that so many variables would align so auspiciously in our favor merely by chance has led some scientists and philosophers to propose instead that it was God who providentially engineered the universe to suit our specific needs. This is the Anthropic Principle: that the universe appears to have been fine-tuned for our existence.

Did you ever stop and think that it is not the universe that is fine tuned for us but is instead us fine tuned for the universe?