Science can say nothing about existence of God

[Rick O'Shez]

You do not understand the English words you are using? The irony is on you because it is you who are reifying the concept of the non-conceptual mind...you are saying the non-conceptual mind, which is an abstract concept, is just another state of mind....nothing supernatural about it.. Now the concept 'abstract' means not representing external reality or objects of nature....which is true wrt the concept of the non-conceptual mind...it is not of this world...it is Divine...and reify means to consider an abstract concept to be a material thing...which it is not for it is God, but which you claim is not supernatural but rather just and another state of mind which is reifying it...

No, this is gobbledygook and you are the one who is continually messing with the language and adding all sorts of unintended meaning. Non-conceptual just means free from concepts, no more, no less, it's just a different state of mind.

You are reifying a state of mind by adding on a load of religious concepts like "God" and "Divine" and "Absolute Reality" etc.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

"Absolute reality" is a worthless concept since we will never know everything that is "out there". And don't confuse a search for knowledge with religious belief and fantasy.

Look...you are an atheist...I get it...everyone gets it...you don't believe in religious knowledge wrt absolute reality...you are not a unique atheist in that regard so there is 'no' reason to see red every time you see some religious inclined concept that you don't believe in....just allow it to pass though to the keeper...

 

[Ben Dhyan]

No, this is gobbledygook and you are the one who is continually messing with the language and adding all sorts of unintended meaning. Non-conceptual just means free from concepts, no more, no less, it's just a different state of mind.

You are reifying a state of mind by adding on a load of religious concepts like "God" and "Divine" and "Absolute Reality" etc.

Hold on buster....how can the use of concepts like God be a reification....God is transcendent!

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Look...you are an atheist...I get it...everyone gets it...you don't believe in religious knowledge wrt absolute reality...you are not a unique atheist in that regard so there is reason to see red every time you see some religious inclined concept that you don't believe in....just allow it to pass though to the keeper...

And everyone gets that you are a theist. So what? How about addressing the point I made about about your misuse of language? Non-conceptual just means non-conceptual, right?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yes, and we've evolved to sense a limited range of inputs.

You forgot to provide credit after reading my post to prometeous11....

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Hold on buster....how can the use of concepts like God be a reification....God is transcendent!

"God" is just another concept actually. Think about it.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

And everyone gets that you are a theist. So what? How about addressing the point I made about about your misuse of language? Non-conceptual just means non-conceptual, right?

What point....the concept non-conceptual means it is does not involve any thought processes of the brain!

 

[Ben Dhyan]

"God" is just another concept actually. Think about it.

Yes of course it is, and it represents the inconceivable THAT which was never born, never created, nor did it evolve...what is your point?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Yes of course it is, and it represents the inconceivable THAT which was never born, never created, nor did it evolve...what is your point?

"God" is a concept and therefore irrelevant to non-conceptual mind. Your beliefs about "God" are also irrelevant to non-conceptual mind.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

What point....the concept non-conceptual means it is does not involve and thought processes of the brain!

In post #360 you said: "...the concept of the non-conceptual mind...it is not of this world...it is Divine...".

The non-conceptual mind is actually just a mind free from thought, you insist on adding unsubstantiated claims like it is "not of the world" and "Divine".

 

[Ben Dhyan]

"God" is a concept and therefore irrelevant to non-conceptual mind. Your beliefs about "God" are also irrelevant to non-conceptual mind.

Now that you have been shown you do not understand proper English...you are trying to obfuscate and muddy the waters. The concept of God is absolute reality...and the concept of absolute reality is God...do you see how that works...I am using concepts as an expedient only to explain to you that the absolute reality is on the other side of the concepts....comprehendo? How does one apprehend absolute reality on the other side of the concept...by ceasing to use the conceptual mind as a religious meditative practice Most people here get it when I explain it like this slowly and logically...do you? Now as an atheist you will not accept it but that's a given...and not a problem...just don't try pretend I am saying something I am not!

 

[Ben Dhyan]

In post #360 you said: "...the concept of the non-conceptual mind...it is not of this world...it is Divine...".

The non-conceptual mind is actually just a mind free from thought, you insist on adding unsubstantiated claims like it is "not of the world" and "Divine".

Child...the reality present when the mind is free from thought is non-conceptual...meaning it is not of this world...if it were of this world, there would conceptual language to describe it, but there is no description...it is the reality on the other side of these concepts...Nirvana...God...Brahman..Tao...Oneness..Cosmic Consciousness....etc.....

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Child...the reality present when the mind is free from thought is non-conceptual...meaning it is not of this world...if it were of this world, there would conceptual language to describe it, but there is no description...it is the reality on the other side of these concepts...Nirvana...God...Brahman..Tao...Oneness..Cosmic Consciousness....etc.....

Entirely unconvincing. As we've established, non-conceptual just means free of thought, so it's just a state of mind free from thought. You could describe it as a meditative state. You are just speculating that it signifies some higher religious reality, but this is only speculation and belief, and of course very conceptual.

And why are you calling me "child"? Does your arrogance know no bounds? Though I suppose it's better than you likening us to pigs. I've noticed that every time your ideas are challenged you get very defensive and adopt this preachy patronising tone, it suggests you have a fragile ego and a fragile faith.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Now that you have been shown you do not understand proper English...you are trying to obfuscate and muddy the waters.

You were the one claiming that a non-conceptual mind is "Divine" and "not of this world", whereas in fact it is just a state of mind free from thought.

I have experienced non-conceptual mind free from thought many times, and I can confirm that you are just making stuff up and speculating. You have a head full of concepts and religious beliefs, and that is why you are reading far too much into meditative experiences. You cannot see the wood for the trees.

By all means have beliefs, but please stop pretending they are facts and some kind of ultimate truth.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Entirely unconvincing. As we've established, non-conceptual just means free of thought, so it's just a state of mind free from thought. You could describe it as a meditative state. You are just speculating that it signifies some higher religious reality, but this is only speculation and belief, and of course very conceptual.

And why are you calling me "child"? Does your arrogance know no bounds? Though I suppose it's better than you likening us to pigs. I've noticed that every time your ideas are challenged you get very defensive and adopt this preachy patronising tone, it suggests you have a fragile ego and a fragile faith.

Sure...the mind that is free from thought is a meditative mind...a state of Dhyan/Chan/Zen (India/China/Japan respectively)...because the personal 'I' does not arise in the mind, and thus the mind is now free from dualistic conceptual speculation.....hence the mind is now one with the cosmic mind...the mind of the Divine omnipresent...this is not speculation but as I explained, has been realized but not permanently... Atheists will never accept it as they are not seeking it...atheists are atheists...we get that!! And no my child...it is your atheism that marks you as a young soul...posting endlessly on RF with the same repetitive inane unsubstantiated atheistic rhetoric...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

..hence the mind is now one with the cosmic mind...the mind of the Divine omnipresent...this is not speculation...

Or course it's speculation. We're discussing a different state of mind, one free from thought, you are adding a load of religious significance based on your belief system.

By all means have the beliefs but stop pretending these beliefs have any objective validity, it's just wishful thinking and confirmation bias on your part. And no, I don't regard having religious beliefs like this to be a mark of spiritual maturity, quite the opposite actually. Generally the more beliefs a person has the less open their mind is.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You were the one claiming that a non-conceptual mind is "Divine" and "not of this world", whereas in fact it is just a state of mind free from thought.

I have experienced non-conceptual mind free from thought many times, and I can confirm that you are just making stuff up and speculating. You have a head full of concepts and religious beliefs, and that is why you are reading far too much into meditative experiences. You cannot see the wood for the trees.

By all means have beliefs, but please stop pretending they are facts and some kind of ultimate truth.

Your atheism and hatred of all things religious causes you to obfuscate.....where do you get the idea that a still mind is not in a state of cosmic consciousness? Look...you are an atheist...we get that...but don't make things up that imply things that are simply not true...

Haha....now the atheist in you is so desperate it is making gross illogical and absurd claims....if you had really realized a still mind free from thought...and thus no ego present...there would definitely have been a change in consciousness. Even when there is just a slight stilling of the mind and subsequent receding of the mind's ego in situations sometimes such as...looking at an awesome sunrise, sunset, starry night in the country, etc., will give to a change in consciousness that is memorable...have you not experienced it? Your atheism gets in the way of understanding what is being said to you...there can not be a head full of concepts and religious beliefs if the mind is still and free from thought....even a child could see the problem with that ovious lack of understanding...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Haha....now the atheist in you is so desperate it is making gross illogical and absurd claims....if you had really realized a still mind free from thought...and thus no ego present...there would definitely have been a change in consciousness. Even when there is just a slight stilling of the mind and subsequent receding of the mind's ego in situations sometimes such as...looking at an awesome sunrise, sunset, starry night in the country, etc., will give to a change in consciousness that is memorable...have you not experienced it? Your atheism gets in the way of understanding what is being said to you...there can not be a head full of concepts and religious beliefs if the mind is still and free from thought....even a child could see the problem with that ovious lack of understanding...

This is sheer nonsense and my lack of belief in God simply isn't relevant to the discussion. I've had quite a few memorable experiences, including jhana, and I have experienced these states with an open mind, not viewing them through the distorting lens of belief and expectation in the way that you clearly do.

Can't you see that your dogmatic supernatural beliefs are an obstacle? Can't you see that all your concepts about "God" and "cosmic mind" are just a distraction?

You take yourself and your beliefs far too seriously.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

This is sheer nonsense and my lack of belief in God simply isn't relevant to the discussion. I've had quite a few memorable experiences, including jhana, and I have experienced these states with an open mind, not viewing them through the distorting lens of belief and expectation in the way that you clearly do.

Can't you see that your dogmatic supernatural beliefs are an obstacle? Can't you see that all your concepts about "God" and "cosmic mind" are just a distraction?

You take yourself and your beliefs far too seriously.

This is not about supernatural belief...but about a state of supernatural being... You see...you are talking about personal experience... I this, I that...it has been explained to you so many times that it is the 'I' that prevents union....there can be no union as long as there is a you experiencing anything....all you have is atheistic belief.....your 'I' can never in all eternity realize cosmic consciousness...not can my 'I'....get it? An atheist does not understand what and who they really are....just young souls presently caught in the maya of conceptual reality....

 

[Unification]

Child...the reality present when the mind is free from thought is non-conceptual...meaning it is not of this world...if it were of this world, there would conceptual language to describe it, but there is no description...it is the reality on the other side of these concepts...Nirvana...God...Brahman..Tao...Oneness..Cosmic Consciousness....etc.....

The other shore