Science can say nothing about existence of God

[Ben Dhyan]

"Immortality as a transcendent being?" Really? OK, lets see you back up this claim with some evidence.

You can't of course, because it's just another belief that you cling to. And your clinging to such beliefs is why you will never experience the void.

Not a belief my atheist believing friend...I know...and you don't have any evidence that I don't know and never will until you transcend your belief....so take your atheistic belief to your grave and then all the proof in the universe will be present...

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I don't think you have any idea of the reality. You've been preaching for so long that you've started to believe your own sermons.

I don't think you have any idea what Nirvana is either. Nirvana includes the realisation of sunyata ( emptiness ), which is entirely incompatible with most of the stuff you believe in. So if do you want to realise it you will need to have a thorough clear-out of your superstitious beliefs.

I wasn't talking to you Norm, but since apparently the cap fits...wear it! You can think all you like...but you will never realize Nirvana on this side...it is the other side...non-conceptual apprehension....

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Think what you will, but don't expect me to care.

I don't...

 

[LuisDantas]

That is a good thing. I would hate to give you cause for expectation.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

That is a good thing. I would hate to give you cause for expectation.

Nah...the wheel of suffering turns slowly...but it turns surely....and it grinds exceedingly fine....all eventually will transcend it for there is no such place or state of eternal suffering...cue sig line... But I now must offer you the last word...be kind..

 

[LuisDantas]

Nah...the wheel of suffering turns slowly...but it turns surely....and it grinds exceedingly fine....all eventually will transcend it for there is no such place or state of eternal suffering...cue sig line... But I now must offer you the last word...be kind..

I am being kind by asking you to spare me from such cheap talk, don't you think?

It is exceedingly pretentious of you to address me like that. You do not get to impose a theology on me, like as you might to.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I am being kind by asking you to spare me from such cheap talk, don't you think?

It is exceedingly pretentious of you to address me like that. You do not get to impose a theology on me, like as you might to.

Ahhh.....you are presuming I have an authority I do not possess, nor did I say what I said to impose any theology on you....universal reality is what it is....not what you would like it to be...I can't change the way it is...Nirvana awaits all...

 

[Ouroboros]

Emotions are at least in large part determined by biological factors, though.

Absolutely agree.

In that sense they are considerably more measurable and objective than "God".

Yet, they're not. You can measure the biological and physical things, but you can't find the emotion in the chemical formula. It's an emergent property of the reactions and the processes as such, which means that these things aren't just what they seem to be on the surface. You can't for instance deduce how it is to move your mouse around on the screen and click on a window just by looking at the binary code for Windows. There's more to things than just the numbers and quantities measured.

Just for fun, can you give a number of measurement of joy? What units would you use?

Not that it is all that difficult to get at least a sense of what is meant by "God", either. There is a cluster of most frequent meanings.that, while probably not all-encompassing, is at the very least quite useful to keep in mind. There can be little doubt at this point in history that for many people "God" is a personification of a mystery of the creation of existence and/or a mystical source of virtue itself, for instance. In other circunstances it can be a crutch of sorts, an attempt at earning debate privileges, etc.

Also, take into account that the word itself, "God", hasn't been around for more than some few hundred years (old English), and it has changed definition and meaning from its roots in Latin (numen), and to add to that, there's been several philosophers and theologians disagreeing with the anthropomorphized version of God and suggesting more pantheistic and naturalistic views of the word hundreds of years ago, so this who personified God is just one version that has been contested for quite some time.

It is of course conceivable that there are outlier cases which are not all that well understood or described by those typical situations, but I don't think that is particularly noteworthy. Knowledge and understanding can and will have boundaries without that truly implying transcendence.

Not sure what you meant to say there. It's most likely me not having my full capacity of my chemical reactions in the brain at the moment after all those great Christmas beers I just imbibed.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

...Nirvana awaits all...

No it doesn't. You're just making stuff up as usual.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

There's no metric system to measure or weigh how much "joy" is really the true "joy" or such. The word "God" also describes things that are personal to people and can't be exactly defined or measured.

I'm not sure what your point is here. Joy is an emotion, while "God" is a concept, a belief.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

No it doesn't. You're just making stuff up as usual.

Yes it does.....you're just making stuff up as usual... here's some inspiration..

lol

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Yes it does.....you're just making stuff up as usual... here's some inspiration..

No, Nirvana is Buddhist enlightenment, it's a state of mind and not a place. Maybe you're confusing it with heaven? You seem to get in an awful muddle with this stuff.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I'm not sure what your point is here. Joy is an emotion, while "God" is a concept, a belief.

I realize I am butting here but I could not resist leaving you in ignorance any longer than necessary....and it will explain why you did not ever seem to understand what was said to you on matters about conceptual v non-conceptual reality.. .All words are concepts.... 'Joy' is a concept...'emotion' is a concept....'God' is a concept.. All numbers are concepts....'one' is a concept....'forty two' is a concept...every word I use to explain this to you is a concept...even the word 'concept' is a concept... Actual reality is forever on the other side on concepts....concepts represent a reality but are never that reality... Only when your mind is still and free from thought will actual reality be present unobscured by concepts...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

.. .All words are concepts.... 'Joy' is a concept...'emotion' is a concept....'God' is a concept.. All numbers are concepts....'one' is a concept....'forty two' is a concept...every word I use to explain this to you is a concept...even the word 'concept' is a concept... Actual reality is forever on the other side on concepts....concepts represent a reality but are never that reality... Only when your mind is still and free from thought will actual reality be present unobscured by concepts...

Yeah, I know, this is basic stuff for a Buddhist practitioner. Such is your need to preach that you have completely missed the point I was making, which was about the distinction between experience and the beliefs with which people surround experience.

And just to remind you, the experience of non-conceptual mind free from thought is nothing whatsoever do do with "God" or other supernatural beliefs. Non-theists like Buddhists experience such states regularly, painful as they might be to your theist ears.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

No, Nirvana is Buddhist enlightenment, it's a state of mind and not a place. Maybe you're confusing it with heaven? You seem to get in an awful muddle with this stuff.

No...actual reality is on the other side of the concepts you use to say that this concept means this and that concept means that....you will never understand what I am saying to you if you have not realized a state of mind beyond thought...beyond concepts.. Once you have realized the non-conceptual state of mind....the vanity of conceptual reality is transcended..except as an expedient to explain the true dharma...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

...you will never understand what I am saying to you if you have not realized a state of mind beyond thought...beyond concepts..

Well actually I have, which is how I know you are talking out of your bottom. I'm not sure even you understand what you're saying, it's like you're reading from a script written by somebody who's ingested too much mushroom soup.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yeah, I know, this is basic stuff for a Buddhist practitioner. Such is your need to preach that you have completely missed the point I was making, which was about the distinction between experience and the beliefs with which people surround experience.

And just to remind you, the experience of non-conceptual mind free from thought is nothing whatsoever do do with "God" or other supernatural beliefs. Non-theists like Buddhists experience such states regularly, painful as they might be to your theist ears.

So...it is my task to make the point that there is no point making the distinction between one concept and another....by implying one concept is a concept and the other isn't...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

So...it is my task to make the point that there is no point making the distinction between one concept and another....by implying one concept is a concept and the other isn't...

Sure, we always conceive about our experience, but beliefs like "God" are conceptions about conceiving, an additional layer of fabrication. In other words "God" and other supernatural beliefs involve a great deal more conceiving, making it even more difficult to experience a mind free from thought and conceiving.

This is an interesting read if you want to find out more about what Buddhism teaches on this subject: https://suttacentral.net/en/mn1

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Well actually I have, which is how I know you are talking out of your bottom. I'm not sure even you understand what you're saying, it's like your reading from a script or something. Slightly surreal.

So...because you do not understand what I'm saying to you....your comeback is to say that I do not know what I am saying to you... Hmmm....just still your mind and you will understand what was said to you....if you can't...forget it, it is not possible...

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Sure, we always conceive about our experience, but beliefs like "God" are conceptions about conceiving, another layer of fabrication.

There are no exceptions....the concept of 'God' is no different from the concept of a 'druggie'...and the concept of 'experience' is no different from the concept of 'belief'....they are concepts....it is the reality represented by those concepts that is different. Reality is obscured by the mind's conceptualized interpretation of the meaning...and only through a still mind will the actual reality be realized directly...purely...