Science confirms validity of intercessory prayer

[The Reverend Bob]

America accounts for just 5% of the world population. Hell the population of europe alone is twice that of america. Here is a british report.

Muslims and Christians less generous than atheists, study finds

And of course your links do not show donations that are not to church funds which do not go to genuine charities. Or those to televangelists who expect a certain lifestyle.

You could also try
https://ieet.org/index.php/IEET2/more/pellissier20111125


Not to mention the fact that donations by religious donations are declining
Religious Giving Down, Other Charity Holding Steady
It also states there is little change in americas overall charitable activity. From that i summise that the 3% if americans who are atheist and the 15% who are not christian are are making up the shortfall.

And i will conclude with a damning report on american donating practices.
Are Religious People Really More Generous Than Atheists? A New Study Puts That Myth to Rest

So would you care to replay that list with the confirmation bias taken out.

P.s. your first link redirects too many times and bottles out, a sure sign of a spammy site.

And here we go people, the never ending battle of "My studies and articles are better than your studies and articles"
Like somehow the appeal to authority argument isn't a fallacy. You know what I up the ante and so can you but none of us are going to have the winning cards and win the pot. These "scientific" studies or articles or whatever whether pro or con are bull****.

 

[ChristineM]

And here we go people, the never ending battle of "My studies and articles are better than your studies and articles"
Like somehow the appeal to authority argument isn't a fallacy. You know what I up the ante and so can you but none of us are going to have the winning cards and win the pot. These "scientific" studies or articles or whatever whether pro or con are bull****.

Why is it that some americans can never consider the world is bigger than them?

I did not claim my studies are better. Just that the studies exist but i guess baseless gloating appeals to some.

Just because your appeal to authority failed, why gripe?

FYI they are not scientific studies, they are statistical studies, i would have thought you knew the difference, sorry if i was wrong on that point.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Read the second study I cited

Which one is that?

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Which one is that?

https://studysites.sagepub.com/vaughnstudy/articles/intervention/Hodge.pdf

 

[SkepticThinker]

https://studysites.sagepub.com/vaughnstudy/articles/intervention/Hodge.pdf

"Thus, at this junction in time, the results might be considered inconclusive."


Not sure how this differs from the others. And of course, we don't lean on single scientific studies for knowledge, rather a series of rigorous studies all pointing to the same causal relationship are necessary to draw proper conclusions.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

"Thus, at this junction in time, the results might be considered inconclusive."


Not sure how this differs from the others. And of course, we don't lean on single scientific studies for knowledge, rather a series of rigorous studies all pointing to the same causal relationship are necessary to draw proper conclusions.

What is the study about? It was a study of the studies. Now we have papers about the papers that are saying that we can draw no conclusions from the studies. It is foolishness to continue studying something that seems to elude any sort of conclusion, better to just move on.

 

[SkepticThinker]

What is the study about? It was a study of the studies. Now we have papers about the papers that are saying that we can draw no conclusions from the studies. It is foolishness to continue studying something that seems to elude any sort of conclusion, better to just move on.

Okay so a meta-analysis tells us that the results are inconclusive. Which is not to say that it's beyond the purview of scientific testing.

But you still want to believe that prayer works, but that we just can't accurately measure it? Is that where you are coming from?

I once wrote a paper on the possible causes of schizophrenia. When I amassed my research papers on the subject, many of the older studies found that they couldn't come to any conclusions, and stated that further study was required (you will find that a great deal of scientific papers will make such an assessment, actually). Now, do you take that to mean that testing for possible causes of schizophrenia is beyond the purview of science and therefore will forever remain inconclusive, or that perhaps scientists simply haven't yet found the mechanism or area of the brain that is responsible for schizophrenia or that perhaps the explanation is more complex than a simple abnormality in a single brain region?

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Okay so a meta-analysis tells us that the results are inconclusive. Which is not to say that it's beyond the purview of scientific testing.

But you still want to believe that prayer works, but that we just can't accurately measure it? Is that where you are coming from?

I once wrote a paper on the possible causes of schizophrenia. When I amassed my research papers on the subject, many of the older studies found that they couldn't come to any conclusions, and stated that further study was required (you will find that a great deal of scientific papers will make such an assessment, actually). Now, do you take that to mean that testing for possible causes of schizophrenia is beyond the purview of science and therefore will forever remain inconclusive, or that perhaps scientists simply haven't yet found the mechanism or area of the brain that is responsible for schizophrenia or that perhaps the explanation is more complex than a simple abnormality in a single brain region?

No, I don't know if prayer works and can draw no conclusion whether it does or not, given the evidence or lack thereof.

 

[SkepticThinker]

No, I don't know if prayer works and can draw no conclusion whether it does or not, given the evidence or lack thereof.

Okay, so if there is a lack of evidence, then there is no good reason to believe the claim that intercessory prayer produces the desired results.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Okay, so if there is a lack of evidence, then there is no good reason to believe the claim that intercessory prayer produces the desired results.

You see, in some of those studies they say that there is some evidence in some cases that it does help. Then you have studies that suggest prayer doesn't help. So what are we to do with these opposing conclusions?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It all right at anyone's fingertips, name a prejudice and I'll find a study confirming your bias. Science is bull****.

Just one wee question if you don't mind: If it is true that "Science is bull****," can you explain why it works so bloody well? I mean, I'm 71 years old, and yet within my lifetime what has changed? If you actually went and had a look at things like telephones, computers, transportation, medicine, and so many of the near miracles that science has wrought just since the year of my birth...1948...

Here are just a few of the major breakthroughs that occurred about when I was born:

• June 21 – World's first working program run on an electronic stored-program computer (think about what you have on your Smart Phone today)
• July-Oct – Claude Shannon publishes "A Mathematical Theory of Communication," regarded as a foundation of information theory.
• Mid-year - Julius Axelrod and Bernard Brodie identify the analgesic properties of acetaminophen
• March 25 – Meteorologists at Tinker Air Force Base issue the world's first tornado forecast for the second of the 1948 Tinker AFB tornadoes
• April 1 (the day I was born) – Physicists Ralph Asher Alpher and George Gamow publish the a paper about the Big Bang
• Casimir effect predicted by Dutch physicist Henry Casimir
• Herbert Frohlich makes a key breakthrough in understanding superconductivity
• June 18 – Columbia Records unveil the LP records development by Peter Goldmark
• First modern long-span permanent box girder bridge completed, between Cologne and Deutz

Now think about the world you live in, and how that so-called "bull****" has contributed to it.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You see, in some of those studies they say that there is some evidence in some cases that it does help. Then you have studies that suggest prayer doesn't help. So what are we to do with these opposing conclusions?

I think it has been pointed out earlier there were some methodological flaws in some of those studies which may have influenced the results.

The time to believe a thing is when it has been demonstrated. The success of intercessory prayer has not be demonstrated.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I even ran across (Hidden Brain podcast) an experiment showing that placebo
treatments can be effective even when the patient knows it's a placebo.
The human mind is a fascinating thingie, eh.) So prayer can indeed be
useful...although "valid" could cause inferring too much more.

An interesting notion, actually. If I had the resources, I might like to set up a test for whether that worked better when:

a) the patient was aware that prayers were made, or b) was not aware

and

a) whether the problem is one that the body is capable of healing on its own (a disease, or syndrome like GBS), or b) was not (e.g. a lost digit or limb)

I think that might help establish the "validity," and whether or not there may be a placebo effect occurring.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Just one wee question if you don't mind: If it is true that "Science is bull****," can you explain why it works so bloody well? I mean, I'm 71 years old, and yet within my lifetime what has changed? If you actually went and had a look at things like telephones, computers, transportation, medicine, and so many of the near miracles that science has wrought just since the year of my birth...1948...

Here are just a few of the major breakthroughs that occurred about when I was born:

• June 21 – World's first working program run on an electronic stored-program computer (think about what you have on your Smart Phone today)
• July-Oct – Claude Shannon publishes "A Mathematical Theory of Communication," regarded as a foundation of information theory.
• Mid-year - Julius Axelrod and Bernard Brodie identify the analgesic properties of acetaminophen
• March 25 – Meteorologists at Tinker Air Force Base issue the world's first tornado forecast for the second of the 1948 Tinker AFB tornadoes
• April 1 (the day I was born) – Physicists Ralph Asher Alpher and George Gamow publish the a paper about the Big Bang
• Casimir effect predicted by Dutch physicist Henry Casimir
• Herbert Frohlich makes a key breakthrough in understanding superconductivity
• June 18 – Columbia Records unveil the LP records development by Peter Goldmark
• First modern long-span permanent box girder bridge completed, between Cologne and Deutz

Now think about the world you live in, and how that so-called "bull****" has contributed to it.

I will think about it.

 

[atanu]

Placebo effect?

What is placebo effect? What is its scientific explanation?

 

[charlie sc]

What is placebo effect? What is its scientific explanation?

Yes. Many trials will give the control condition a placebo or have a placebo condition. However, this is not possible for all experiments. The placebo effect is when nothing is really happening or given but the person feels good or things something is happening. This effect is so powerful that is shows all the time. Drug trials need to test for this.
So, when you talk about Gurus and how others are effected(?), then it's explainable by the placebo effect.

"Placebos often work because people don't know they are getting one. But what happens if you know you are getting a placebo?

A 2014 study led by Kaptchuk and published in Science Translational Medicine explored this by testing how people reacted to migraine pain medication. One group took a migraine drug labeled with the drug's name, another took a placebo labeled "placebo," and a third group took nothing. The researchers discovered that the placebo was 50% as effective as the real drug to reduce pain after a migraine attack.

The researchers speculated that a driving force beyond this reaction was the simple act of taking a pill. "People associate the ritual of taking medicine as a positive healing effect," says Kaptchuk. "Even if they know it's not medicine, the action itself can stimulate the brain into thinking the body is being healed." The power of the placebo effect - Harvard Health

 

[Subduction Zone]

What is the study about? It was a study of the studies. Now we have papers about the papers that are saying that we can draw no conclusions from the studies. It is foolishness to continue studying something that seems to elude any sort of conclusion, better to just move on.

The conclusion is that there is no evidence for intercessory prayer being of any value. That was the null hypothesis and it was not falsified.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

The conclusion is that there is no evidence for intercessory prayer being of any value. That was the null hypothesis and it was not falsified.

The studies state that the studies about the subject are inconclusive therefore hold no value. There are studies that say IP does work and then there are those that say it doesn't. Both studies whether pro or con hold no value. So what did one study on the studies suggest: move on because the subject is inherently inclusive and therefore not worthy of any further study or resources.

 

[Revoltingest]

An interesting notion, actually. If I had the resources, I might like to set up a test for whether that worked better when:

a) the patient was aware that prayers were made, or b) was not aware

and

a) whether the problem is one that the body is capable of healing on its own (a disease, or syndrome like GBS), or b) was not (e.g. a lost digit or limb)

I think that might help establish the "validity," and whether or not there may be a placebo effect occurring.

Aye, the mind & body relationship has its complexities.
The former cannot do the impossible for the latter.
But what's possible needs to be explored.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The studies state that the studies about the subject are inconclusive therefore hold no value. There are studies that say IP does work and then there are those that say it doesn't. Both studies whether pro or con hold no value. So what did one study on the studies suggest: move on because the subject is inherently inclusive and therefore not worthy of any further study or resources.

You tend to go to far. Why do you think that there is "no value"? Once again, the failure of prayer to have a positive effect voids the claim of positive results.