Science, Metaphysics, and "God of the Gaps" Arguments

[Scuba Pete]

And you never answered my question directly. Do you believe that God approves of the steps mankind has taken to exploit his creation in regard to our developments in nuclear technology or no? Does it seem like something He would support?

Such a loaded question. Does God approve or does he allow? Is man exploiting or exploring? It's my belief that God is love. Fear, hate and ignorance all oppose love so would God not approve/allow the pursuit of understanding? God loves us enough to let us make mistakes. That's all part of growth and developing empathy.

And before you tell me "we can't know the mind of God",

I'm not sure why I would ever say this or even why you think I would say this?

I Corinthians 2:11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”
But we have the mind of Christ. NIV

I don't need to tell God how to be God.

Probably the most intelligent words written today. Whether you believe in him or not, it's a good approach. Be careful, or I'll have to call the Police on you...

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Such a loaded question. Does God approve or does he allow? Is man exploiting or exploring? It's my belief that God is love. Fear, hate and ignorance all oppose love so would God not approve/allow the pursuit of understanding? God loves us enough to let us make mistakes. That's all part of growth and developing empathy.

I'm not sure why I would ever say this or even why you think I would say this?

I Corinthians 2:11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”
But we have the mind of Christ. NIV

Probably the most intelligent words written today. Whether you believe in him or not, it's a good approach. Be careful, or I'll have to call the Police on you...

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You will always fail to sway me with replies like these. Not that you need to care about it - just stating the facts.

 

[Scuba Pete]

You will always fail to sway me with replies like these. Not that you need to care about it - just stating the facts.

I'm not trying to sway anyone: not even you. I have no quarrel with you believing differently than I do. I value diversity and would find this a boring place if we all felt the same. I also realize that most people who post in absolutes as you do, have a tightly closed mind. You've made up your mind and are not going to be swayed by facts or reason, no matter how salient or clever. Consequently, I write for the subsequent readers and not for you.

 

[Thief]

Sorry if I'm butting in. This seems relevant here:

Until very recently, most neurobiologists did not regard consciousness as a suitable topic
for scientific investigation. This reluctance was based on certain philosophical mistakes, primarily
the mistake of supposing that the subjectivity of consciousness made it beyond the reach of an
objective science. Once we see that consciousness is a biological phenomenon like any other, then
it can be investigated neurobiologically. Consciousness is entirely caused by neurobiological
processes and is realized in brain structures. The essential trait of consciousness that we need to
explain is unified qualitative subjectivity. Consciousness thus differs from other biological
phenomena in that it has a subjective or first-person ontology, but this subjective ontology does not
prevent us from having an epistemically objective science of consciousness.

http://faculty.wcas.northwestern.edu/~paller/dialogue/csc1.pdf

@Sunstone

I watched an anesthesiologist discuss his practice and his own investigation....
in spite of chemistry there is a line drawn that we can't seem to find.

under chemistry, we humans can undergo extreme physical trauma and return to this life....
as if very little was done to them.....
even if a great DEAL was done to them....

the good doctor spoke at length the mystery of where the mind goes....
how does it return....
and why the chemistry is needed to circumvent shock and death....

he didn't really have an answer.....or even a theory....
he just knows....our thoughts go somewhere we know not.
and we return after the operation....unaware the cut.

See Genesis.....Adam's surgery

 

[Thief]

once you get where you want to go, you toss out science, truth, fact, and reasoning (sound or otherwise) out the window.
Therefore you do not base your beliefs on sound reasoning.

One wonders why you would think your "Faith needs no proving" dogma is "sound reasoning?

I let go of science because it cannot follow....
and neither can you.

science is in the lead...up to a point....
then you just have to think about it

 

[leibowde84]

for the singularity to be singular.....no secondary point can be allowed.

that induces a void

see Genesis

You do realize that there are singularities right now in the center of certain black-holes, right? So, no, there is no requirement that a singularity be all that exists. You are literally just making that up.

 

[leibowde84]

I have no religion.
I believe in God because of science

Science currently does not speak in any way to the existence of God. You are making assumptions about the Big Bang that aren't known yet.

 

[Thief]

Science currently does not speak in any way to the existence of God. You are making assumptions about the Big Bang that aren't known yet.

that's why I call it theory

 

[leibowde84]

that's why I call it theory

As long as you aren't claiming erroneously that it's a "scientific theory", that's fine ... Haha. But, currently all you have is an unsubstantiated theory ... Or "guess".

 

[Thief]

As long as you aren't claiming erroneously that it's a "scientific theory", that's fine ... Haha. But, currently all you have is an unsubstantiated theory ... Or "guess".

science led to my theory.

 

[leibowde84]

science led to my theory.

Doesn't matter. Your theory doesn't meet the standard required to be a "scientific theory".

 

[Yerda]

I watched an anesthesiologist discuss his practice and his own investigation....
in spite of chemistry there is a line drawn that we can't seem to find.

under chemistry, we humans can undergo extreme physical trauma and return to this life....
as if very little was done to them.....
even if a great DEAL was done to them....

the good doctor spoke at length the mystery of where the mind goes....
how does it return....
and why the chemistry is needed to circumvent shock and death....

he didn't really have an answer.....or even a theory....
he just knows....our thoughts go somewhere we know not.
and we return after the operation....unaware the cut.

See Genesis.....Adam's surgery

Maybe the thoughts simply cease to occur for a while.

 

[leibowde84]

Maybe the thoughts simply cease to occur for a while.

That certainly seems like the most plausible explanation.

 

[Thief]

Maybe the thoughts simply cease to occur for a while.

that's the part the doctors don't get....
where did that person go?
how did the chemistry make certain the departure would happen?

no portion of the body seems to hold the spirit altogether.
the brain seems to have the function of a microphone and headset.

 

[Thief]

Doesn't matter. Your theory doesn't meet the standard required to be a "scientific theory".

you mean your dismissal is your trump card.....

and I don't care

 

[Yerda]

that's the part the doctors don't get....
where did that person go?
how did the chemistry make certain the departure would happen?

no portion of the body seems to hold the spirit altogether.
the brain seems to have the function of a microphone and headset.

I see what you are saying and I struggle to understand what's going on myself. However, a much more interesting and bewildering question is this, how does the chemistry of the brain cause the person to appear in the first place?

I have no real idea but I go with this wee heuristic principle: consciousness is a state of matter; mess with the state of the system and the consciousness can be lost.

 

[Thief]

I see what you are saying and I struggle to understand what's going on myself. However, a much more interesting and bewildering question is this, how does the chemistry of the brain cause the person to appear in the first place?

I have no real idea but I go with this wee heuristic principle: consciousness is a state of matter; mess with the state of the system and the consciousness can be lost.

I believe this form of matter is intended to produce a unique spirit.
to insure this happens we are not able to 'leave' altogether.....
not until the form stiffens.....cracks.....and fails.....

but if we are not able to 'pull' our 'selves' together....
gather our wits and take one last breath.....
that last breath is prelude to the everlasting darkness of the grave.

I prefer to think we can escape.
I believe we can

 

[leibowde84]

that's the part the doctors don't get....
where did that person go?
how did the chemistry make certain the departure would happen?

no portion of the body seems to hold the spirit altogether.
the brain seems to have the function of a microphone and headset.

It didn't necessarily "go anywhere". It's possible that when the brain shuts off, so does consciousness or "spirit".

 

[leibowde84]

you mean your dismissal is your trump card.....

and I don't care

Nope, just pointing out that fact that your hypothesis is not a scientific theory.

 

[Thief]

It didn't necessarily "go anywhere". It's possible that when the brain shuts off, so does consciousness or "spirit".

then Man has no hope of a next life.....
and this life is a complete mystery with no purpose or resolve.

as chemistry.....we are dust.....even as we breath