Science, Metaphysics, and "God of the Gaps" Arguments

[prometheus11]

So, you complained about nothing? I guess if that works for you. Everyone wants to tell God how to be God and they probably have issues of their own. 2 phunni.

Could you be more boring? I mean, if somebody wrote you a check. Like a big one. I'm just wondering if it possible.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The more certain you are of anything you can't possibly know for certain, the more the faith.

You mean I should not be certain of anything in the world? But people are allowed to be certain about existence of God! How about you? Are you a theist?

But the universe in which I live does not contain these supernatural elements - so far as I can tell. I could waste all my time looking for them... just doesn't seem productive.

Ah, you do not have faith, otherwise you could have asked Jesus to move mountains and change the course of rivers.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Science is in the business of explaining how the universe works. If something is supposed to interact with the universe, then science would be able to test those interactions. The theistic god is supposed to interact with the world. Science can test those claims. So far, any such tests that have been done have found no evidence of a god.

Any argument for God that boils down to "We don't understand X, therefore God" is a "God of the gaps" argument. If you're saying God must exist, because he's the reason there's something rather than nothing, then it's a "God of the gaps" argument.

Haha...I love the irony...science explains the beginning of the universe in the same way same way some religionists believe the universe began....miraculously...the first by miracle of unknown cause, the latter by a miracle of God.... In both cases, there is no logical way that this universe could have come from a miracle..by miracle I mean getting something from nothing...

 

[Thief]

You mean I should not be certain of anything in the world? But people are allowed to be certain about existence of God! How about you? Are you a theist?Ah, you do not have faith, otherwise you could have asked Jesus to move mountains and change the course of rivers.

when spoken by the Carpenter.....that line of faith is a metaphor

 

[Scuba Pete]

You mean I should not be certain of anything in the world? But people are allowed to be certain about existence of God! How about you? Are you a theist?

You're really not reading what I've been writing, have you?

On a scale of one to five, I'm probably a solid 0.5 on the right.

Now, I never wrote, intimated, suggested or meant that you should not be certain of anything in this world. Everyone should be allowed to be as certain as they want to be. Faith helps you to fill in those gaps that might make you less certain. Faith allows you to extrapolate and interpolate your world when you don't have all the data you would like. You don't really know, but you can say you do because your interpretation of your experiences to this point all suggest that you are right.

Everyone has a cognitive bias. We tend to see and interpret only that which agrees with our beliefs. The bigger our bias, the harder it is to see that much of what we believe or disbelieve may have more than one interpretation or even evidence that contradicts it. Our certainty actually blinds us to seeing the other perspectives.

That's why I work at keeping as close to a neutral stance as I can. I want to understand my friends' beliefs and why they believe what they do. I've tried to be an atheist and an agnostic, but I'm just not wired that way. I'm not a Bible thumper by any means and I try to keep open minded. I try not to be a FIGJAM kind of person, but then we all have egos. I hope this helps.

 

[prometheus11]

Haha...I love the irony...science explains the beginning of the universe in the same way same way some religionists believe the universe began....miraculously...the first by miracle of unknown cause, the latter by a miracle of God.... In both cases, there is no logical way that this universe could have come from a miracle..by miracle I mean getting something from nothing...

Science invokes no miracles and posits no "nothing" at all.

Again you fall.

 

[Thief]

for the singularity to be singular.....no secondary point can be allowed.

that induces a void

see Genesis

 

[prometheus11]

You're really not reading what I've been writing, have you?



Now, I never wrote, intimated, suggested or meant that you should not be certain of anything in this world. Everyone should be allowed to be as certain as they want to be. Faith helps you to fill in those gaps that might make you less certain. Faith allows you to extrapolate and interpolate your world when you don't have all the data you would like. You don't really know, but you can say you do because your interpretation of your experiences to this point all suggest that you are right.

Everyone has a cognitive bias. We tend to see and interpret only that which agrees with our beliefs. The bigger our bias, the harder it is to see that much of what we believe or disbelieve may have more than one interpretation or even evidence that contradicts it. Our certainty actually blinds us to seeing the other perspectives.

That's why I work at keeping as close to a neutral stance as I can. I want to understand my friends' beliefs and why they believe what they do. I've tried to be an atheist and an agnostic, but I'm just not wired that way. I'm not a Bible thumper by any means and I try to keep open minded. I try not to be a FIGJAM kind of person, but then we all have egos. I hope this helps.

Don't try so hard. Atheists and agnostics aren't keen on you. Please be a bible thumper. Please? You can be as certain as you want.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Faith allows you to extrapolate and interpolate your world when you don't have all the data you would like.

I don't fill gaps. I keep them vacant, to be filled in future in whatever way. The idea of God is totally junked.

Science invokes no miracles and posits no "nothing" at all.

I am sure of the point in red but not sure about the point in green.

 

[Thief]

if you don't draw a line now and then.....the picture won't show...

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Science invokes no miracles and posits no "nothing" at all.
Again you fall.

From the conclusion of his lecture..."The beginning of Time" by Professor S.W.Hawking

The conclusion of this lecture is that the universe has not existed forever. Rather, the universe, and time itself, had a beginning in the Big Bang, about 15 billion years ago." ...

So according to science...time and universal space arose in no time and no space... No time and no space = nothing

What caused it? Why did it happen? How is it possible? Science say please don't ask because we don't know? Iow, it was a miracle...haha.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I don't fill gaps. I keep them vacant, to be filled in future in whatever way. The idea of God is totally junked.I am sure of the point in red but not sure about the point in green.

if you don't draw a line now and then.....the picture won't show...

I agree with Theif: Everyone plays connect the dots, even if they don't see all the dots. Actually, especially if they don't see all the dots.

You're more than free to disagree with my assertions. But your certainty without having all the facts supports those assertions nicely. Thanks!

 

[Tiberius]

I agree with Theif: Everyone plays connect the dots, even if they don't see all the dots. Actually, especially if they don't see all the dots.

You're more than free to disagree with my assertions. But your certainty without having all the facts supports those assertions nicely. Thanks!

Of course, the important thing is to be able to make sure that the dots we have actually belong to the picture, and once we have verified this, we must also make sure we use all of the verified dots.

And the best way to do that is with science.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You're more than free to disagree with my assertions. But your certainty without having all the facts supports those assertions nicely. Thanks!

What facts do you need to deny God? The universe has been shown to have been created in another way, humans have been shown to have been created in another way, and humans have suffered evil for all the history, more by people who professed faith in God, without God raising a finger.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

see Genesis

I did, but it was after Peter Gabriel left the band.

 

[prometheus11]

From the conclusion of his lecture..."The beginning of Time" by Professor S.W.Hawking

The conclusion of this lecture is that the universe has not existed forever. Rather, the universe, and time itself, had a beginning in the Big Bang, about 15 billion years ago." ...

So according to science...time and universal space arose in no time and no space... No time and no space = nothing

What caused it? Why did it happen? How is it possible? Science say please don't ask because we don't know? Iow, it was a miracle...haha.

One scientist is not "science."

Hawking and all other scientists will admit to using such terminology so that the public can understand. However, we simply don't know how long the singularity existed before expanded. Really, that question doesn't make sense, since time wasn't a thing until the singularity. Science states that our universe expanded from a hot, dense point. Other than that we simply don't know.

You can laugh at science for not making a claim because there's no data to do so. Or you can admit that it's the most honest and correct possible answer. Honesty says "I don't know "when you don't know. Those who are dishonest start discussing miracles.

 

[Scuba Pete]

What facts do you need to deny God?

Apparently, you don't need any at all. Again, that's nuthin' but faith.

The universe has been shown to have been created in another way, humans have been shown to have been created in another way, and humans have suffered evil for all the history, more by people who professed faith in God, without God raising a finger.

Again, your faith simply astounds me. I would love to see the data that 'shows' what you believe. Let's see what we truly have here.

 

[Thief]

I did, but it was after Peter Gabriel left the band.

ok...haha

 

[Thief]

One scientist is not "science."

Hawking and all other scientists will admit to using such terminology so that the public can understand. However, we simply don't know how long the singularity existed before expanded. Really, that question doesn't make sense, since time wasn't a thing until the singularity. Science states that our universe expanded from a hot, dense point. Other than that we simply don't know.

You can laugh at science for not making a claim because there's no data to do so. Or you can admit that it's the most honest and correct possible answer. Honesty says "I don't know "when you don't know. Those who are dishonest start discussing miracles.

time wasn't a thing until the singularity.....moved

and even now... time does not exist

 

[prometheus11]

time wasn't a thing until the singularity.....moved

and even now time does not exist

Time is movement. Everything we can measure was within the singularity. We have no idea if there was anything else or is anything else.