Scientists and Christianity...

[Enoch07]

FIFY
Genetics undeniable proves the story of Adam and Eve.

Nice how that works ain't it.

 

[themadhair]

Nice how that works ain't it.

Fascinating actually:
BBC News | SCI/TECH | Genetic 'Adam never met Eve'

 

[Enoch07]

Hmm interesting but rubbish. Too many believes and possible's in there to say it is fact.

 

[themadhair]

Hmm interesting but rubbish. Too many believes and possible's in there to say it is fact.

And this is why biblical literalism is corrosive to science.

 

[Hospitaller]

Well, we and apes came from a common ancestor, and we all evolved from unicellular life.

And that ain't bullcrap.

sure... if you're an evolutionist...

 

[themadhair]

sure... if you're an evolutionist...

So the pope is mistaken? How does that work for a catholic to think the pope is mistaken?
Pope: Creation vs. evolution an ‘absurdity’ - The Vatican- msnbc.com

LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy - Pope Benedict XVI said the debate raging in some countries — particularly the United States and his native Germany — between creationism and evolution was an “absurdity,” saying that evolution can coexist with faith.The pontiff, speaking as he was concluding his holiday in northern Italy, also said that while there is much scientific proof to support evolution, the theory could not exclude a role by God.

 

[Enoch07]

And this is why biblical literalism is corrosive to science.

Science is a great tool for a many of things. But it's main use is not proving the Bible wrong. You ruin your own cause by trying to use science to disprove religious beliefs. Just use it for what it is...a tool, instead of trying to use it as a replacement for religion.

 

[Smoke]

It's fascinating how often creationist claims delve into racist misconceptions and general ignorance all too easily. Something similar is happening in this thread.

I'm almost sorry I looked.

 

[themadhair]

But it's main use is not proving the Bible wrong. You ruin your own cause by trying to use science to disprove religious beliefs.

With all due respect you ruin your own religion by holding to a series of factually incorrect claims that fly in the face of what we find in the world.

Whenever every piece of relevant data from palaeontology, genetics, atomic physics, geology, biogeography, dendrochronology, homology, cladistics, etc. disagrees with what you label as your ‘religion’ then it ceases to be a belief but a denial of reality.

It is not a case of using science to disprove some of your religious beliefs – it is a case that a great many of your religious beliefs, specifically those concerning the earth and the development of life thereon, have already been shown to be false by science. All I’m doing is asking you to join the 21st century and stop using your religious beliefs as a scientific retardant.

 

[Enoch07]

With all due respect you ruin your own religion by holding to a series of factually incorrect claims that fly in the face of what we find in the world.

That's a matter of opinion. And we are all allowed to have an opinion. Or do you not believe in free thought?

Whenever every piece of relevant data from palaeontology, genetics, atomic physics, geology, biogeography, dendrochronology, homology, cladistics, etc. disagrees with what you label as your ‘religion’ then it ceases to be a belief but a denial of reality.

Like I said, science is a tool to be used when needed then discarded once it serves its purpose. To try and replace religion with science is futile.

It is not a case of using science to disprove some of your religious beliefs – it is a case that a great many of your religious beliefs, specifically those concerning the earth and the development of life thereon, have already been shown to be false by science. All I’m doing is asking you to join the 21st century and stop using your religious beliefs as a scientific retardant.

Kk you asked. I refuse. Anything else?

 

[Hospitaller]

I shouldn't have to tell this to a seminarian, but the Catholic Church has no problem with Catholics believing in evolution, though Pius XII, in Humani Generis, specified:

For these reasons the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God. ...

When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.
​

In other words, Catholics are allowed to accept the fact of evolution as long as they still believe in the God's creation of souls and in original sin.

"Some however, rashly transgress this liberty of discussion, when they act as if the origin of the human body from pre-existing and living matter were already completely certain and proved by the facts which have been discovered up to now and by reasoning on those facts, and as if there were nothing in the sources of divine revelation which demands the greatest moderation and caution in this question." Humani Generis, 36

This passage is referring to the idea of the human body coming from already existing primates (the apes). Holy Father Pius XII did not denounce it as complete lies, but demands great caution when dealing on such a subject. Also take note that "research and discussion" do not neccesarily mean "belief in" is acceptable.

 

[Hospitaller]

AFAIK, the position of the Church is that the only point of doctrine in this whole debate is that all humanity descended from an original pair of humans, and apart from that, they're content to leave the matter of how life arose, including us, up to science.

exactly. although it may not have been only Adam and Eve.

 

[Smoke]

This passage is referring to the idea of the human body coming from already existing primates (the apes). Holy Father Pius XII did not denounce it as complete lies, but demands great caution when dealing on such a subject. Also take note that "research and discussion" do not neccesarily mean "belief in" is acceptable.

I refer you to Benedict XVI's comments posted above by themadhair.

 

[themadhair]

That's a matter of opinion.

If someone claimed the world was created 100 years ago would that be an equally valid opinion?

Like I said, science is a tool to be used when needed then discarded once it serves its purpose.

As I said – your beliefs are a scientific retardant. You enjoy the fruits of scientific knowledge everyday. Still touchy that it disproved that whole literalism thing.

To try and replace religion with science is futile.

It amazes me that people think this is an argument when so many deeply religious people can understand what science is and what it shows. The catholic church, despite phenomenal resistance, finally realised this. Question is why haven’t you and your fellow literalists?

Kk you asked. I refuse. Anything else?

More presenting of evidence I suppose. The issue of ensuring the quality of science education in economies reliant on technology is too important IMO.

 

[Smoke]

exactly. although it may not have been only Adam and Eve.

According to Pius XII, in the passage I already quoted from Humani Generis, it was.

When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.​

 

[Hospitaller]

So the pope is mistaken? How does that work for a catholic to think the pope is mistaken?
Pope: Creation vs. evolution an ‘absurdity’ - The Vatican- msnbc.com

man, duh. i never said that evolution isnt happening! animals are changing right now! every four years the olympic records are lowered. thats one example. thats why i was talking about man coming from ape as the absurdity. thats scientists theory to get God out of the picture. jeez

 

[Hospitaller]

According to Pius XII, in the passage I already quoted from Humani Generis, it was.

When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.
​

note the term "after". God may have created more good men, and after original sin taken them up to Heaven. we dont know. thats all im saying

 

[Smoke]

man, duh. i never said that evolution isnt happening! animals are changing right now! every four years the olympic records are lowered. thats one example. thats why i was talking about man coming from ape as the absurdity. thats scientists theory to get God out of the picture. jeez

What seminary do you attend? You seem remarkably uninformed about Catholic teaching.

 

[themadhair]

thats why i was talking about man coming from ape as the absurdity.

We are still apes. Can you point where humans begin in the following picture:

thats scientists theory to get God out of the picture. jeez

Must be why all those christian biologists are staunchly defending evolution huh? Ken Miller (google him) is a Roman catholic and he defended evolutionary theory at the Dover trial. Man he must really want god out of the picture then?

And, in case you missed it, the popes comments were referring to evolutionary theory which includes ‘man from apes’ as you put it. He holds the position of ‘theistic evolution’ which purports evolutionary theory to be true but with god’s guiding hand.

 

[Hospitaller]

What seminary do you attend? You seem remarkably uninformed about Catholic teaching.

insulting me wont get you anywhere, friend.