Searching for proof of God/Islam - Tell me why I'm wrong

[loverofhumanity]

Sure, but your earlier claim is not then true.

To me it's true.

 

[loverofhumanity]

There have always been alliances, pacts and treaties between tribes and nations.

Baha'u'llah speaks about world alliances which are yet to be formed.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

To me it's true.

So, as far as you are concerned, Baha'u'llah is the only one to have been able to correctly decipher the true meaning of the Bible and the Qur'aan? Nobody else understands the (whole of the) Bible or the Qur'aan?

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Baha'u'llah speaks about world alliances which are yet to be formed.

Maybe, but then we can't yet claim his words (on this score) as proof of anything, because the alliances have not yet been formed...

 

[paarsurrey]

Searching for proof of God

One is to believe in God very naturally, the signs and proofs do increase strength of one's belief though, nevertheless,these are not required. Right? Please
Regards

 

[The_Fisher_King]

If the following conditions are true:

1. Muhammed brought the Qur’an
   
2. The Qur’an has not materially changed since the point of its arrival
   
3. Muhammed genuinely believed that the Qur’an was from God
   
4. The Qur’an, along with its effects on people, are beyond what can realistically be expected from the products of someone with mental illness

Then: There is almost certainly a genuine supernatural nature to the core text of Islam that is available to us today

I don't think your conclusion above (in bold) follows from your preceding conditions.

I should say that I believe 1-4 to be true.

But getting back to your argument, why should the facts that Muhammad (pbuh) brought the Qur'aan, that the Qur'aan has not materially changed since the point of its arrival, that Muhammad (pbuh) genuinely believed that the Qur'aan was from God and that the Qur’aan, along with its effects on people, are beyond what can realistically be expected from the products of someone with mental illness necessarily mean that there is a genuine supernatural nature to the Qur'aan? None of these things necessarily point to a supernatural origin for the Qur'aan. It could be that Muhammad (pbuh) was a particularly canny individual. Not all canny individuals are God's Messengers.

Let me ask you a different question. What do you think about the things that the Qur'aan says? What do you feel when you read the Qur'aan?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Maybe, but then we can't yet claim his words (on this score) as proof of anything, because the alliances have not yet been formed...

It's a prophecy and it also has predicted the League of Nations and the United Nations in essence. It was written in the 1800's well before such ideas were even thought of. It includes collective security & disarmament.

Here are His Words

"The Great Being, wishing to reveal the prerequisites of the peace and tranquillity of the world and the advancement of its peoples, hath written: The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men. Such a peace demandeth that the Great Powers should resolve, for the sake of the tranquillity of the peoples of the earth, to be fully reconciled among themselves. Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories. This will ensure the peace and composure of every people, government and nation." - Baha'u'llah

 

[loverofhumanity]

So, as far as you are concerned, Baha'u'llah is the only one to have been able to correctly decipher the true meaning of the Bible and the Qur'aan? Nobody else understands the (whole of the) Bible or the Qur'aan?

In Sura 7 it says the interpretation of the Quran will come and in the Bible Revelation chapter 5 also it speaks of the interpretation being revealed. The Quran only forbids the interpretation of the mystical verses as does the Bible which says there are verses both on the outside of the Book meaning clear things and verses on the inside meaning mystical things that only God knows.

In the Quran Sura 39:69 it speaks of the day when the 'Lord will appear and the books will be opened' that is, the Lord will reveal the hidden meanings.

Likewise in the Bible a Revelation ch 5 it says that the Lion of Judah was the only One found worthy to unseal the meanings of the Book.

These passages both refer to Bahaullah and the Kitáb-i-Aqdas is the Book that is mentioned in the Quran and Bible which revealed the true meanings of the Bible and Quran.

This is my belief.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

It's a prophecy and it also has predicted the League of Nations and the United Nations in essence. It was written in the 1800's well before such ideas were even thought of. It includes collective security & disarmament.

Sure. But I thought we were talking about proofs.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

In Sura 7 it says the interpretation of the Quran will come and in the Bible Revelation chapter 5 also it speaks of the interpretation being revealed. The Quran only forbids the interpretation of the mystical verses as does the Bible which says there are verses both on the outside of the Book meaning clear things and verses on the inside meaning mystical things that only God knows.

In the Quran Sura 39:69 it speaks of the day when the 'Lord will appear and the books will be opened' that is, the Lord will reveal the hidden meanings.

Likewise in the Bible a Revelation ch 5 it says that the Lion of Judah was the only One found worthy to unseal the meanings of the Book.

These passages both refer to Bahaullah and the Kitáb-i-Aqdas is the Book that is mentioned in the Quran and Bible which revealed the true meanings of the Bible and Quran.

This is my belief.

So that's a yes to both my questions, then?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Sure. But I thought we were talking about proofs.

Baha'u'llah knew there would be an 'imperative necessity for a world meeting and it would be recognised universally?

How did He know this of a certainty and why was He right?

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Baha'u'llah knew there would be an 'imperative necessity for a world meeting and it would be recognised universally?

How did He know this of a certainty and why was He right?

You're side-stepping my point.

But wrt your above point, I disagree with Baha'u'llah on a number of things, including the notion of 'an imperative necessity for a world meeting', which is certainly not universally recognised.

 

[Aupmanyav]

In the Quran Sura 39:69 it speaks of the day when the 'Lord will appear and the books will be opened' that is, the Lord will reveal the hidden meanings.
Likewise in the Bible a Revelation ch 5 it says that the Lion of Judah was the only One found worthy to unseal the meanings of the Book.
These passages both refer to Bahaullah and the Kitáb-i-Aqdas is the Book that is mentioned in the Quran and Bible which revealed the true meanings of the Bible and Quran.
This is my belief.

Quite funny. Even if two unathenticated book say that a person or a book will appear, how do you jump to the conclusion that they are talking about your Bahaullah and Kitab-i-Aqdas. Belief is belief, not proof.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You're side-stepping my point.

But wrt your above point, I disagree with Baha'u'llah on a number of things, including the notion of 'an imperative necessity for a world meeting', which is certainly not universally recognised.

It was after world wars one and two which resulted in the formation of the League of Nations then the United Nations. There's still one to come but the necessity has been realised.

Don't forget the millennium Summit also. I'm not intending to side step it's just my way of explaining. I do apologise if you think that but that is not my intention.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Quite funny. Even if two unathenticated book say that a person or a book will appear, how do you jump to the conclusion that they are talking about your Bahaullah and Kitab-i-Aqdas. Belief is belief, not proof.

By reading the Writings of Baha'u'llah with a pure heart all can receive enlightenment and true knowledge.

 

[paarsurrey]

Searching for proof of God

One is to believe in God very naturally, the signs and proofs do increase strength of one's belief though, nevertheless,these are not required. Right? Please
One has no doubt that one exists? Does one? Please
Regards

 

[The_Fisher_King]

It was after world wars one and two which resulted in the formation of the League of Nations then the United Nations. There's still one to come but the necessity has been realised.

Don't forget the millennium Summit also. I'm not intending to side step it's just my way of explaining. I do apologise if you think that but that is not my intention.

Many of us don't see the necessity of it, though.

I was talking about proofs vs prophecies. A few posts back I asked you to share some proofs. Some of the things you ended up sharing as proofs looked more like prophecies to me, at least some of which have yet to be fulfilled. If a prophecy has yet to be fulfilled, how can it count as a proof?

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Searching for proof of God

One is to believe in God very naturally, the signs and proofs do increase strength of one's belief though, nevertheless,these are not required. Right? Please

If this is the case, someone can believe in the eternal nature of a holy book without having to prove it, right?

 

[Aupmanyav]

By reading the Writings of Baha'u'llah with a pure heart all can receive enlightenment and true knowledge.

What you take as true knowledge, I find that the normal Abrahamic claim: 'There is one God and I am his representative'. Any one can make that claim since no proof is to be offered.

 

[loverofhumanity]

What you take as true knowledge, I find that the normal Abrahamic claim: 'There is one God and I am his representative'. Any one can make that claim since no proof is to be offered.

We can only test Them to see if They are true or not.

Through my personal research and investigation I found Baha'u'llah to be legitimately the Promised One foretold in all religions.

That His claims are in fact true. That is the conclusion I have come to.