Searching for proof of God/Islam - Tell me why I'm wrong

[The_Fisher_King]

There's so many proofs there's simply no room to put them all here.

But you could give us a few of them..

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Through our soul we all have been given the capacity and ability to know God through His Prophets. It is like eyes except it allows us to perceive the existence of God and know His Prophets if it is pure.

I would like you to examine very carefully what you've said here, because each and every one of us has our own insights, our own ways of perceiving and understanding. But if I perceive differently than you, including the non-existence of anything that you would consider calling "God," then you are asserting that it is my soul and my given capacity and ability that are at fault -- and of course not yours.

Exactly how do you determine that? Is there some evidence OTHER than my capacity and ability to know and yours? Or do we each just assume that the other's capacities are faulty?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

God cares too much about Peace. He sacrificed too many Prophets to try and teach us peace. But we stoned Them and tried to kill Them.

This, of course, is ludicrous in exactly the way that I have been demonstrating. I might grant that a wise being could make a mistake once, but to continue to make the same mistake, over and over and over again ("He sacrificed too many Prophets...") must surely demonstrate an inability to learn from one's own mistakes, let alone possess omniscience!

And I repeat what I've said before -- if the Prophet method fails (and it assuredly does, as you yourself just admitted) then surely God would choose something else. And the easiest (and easiest to understand) would be what I've been suggesting: let everybody know definitively in the same way that the Prophets "know." This does not get in the way of free will at all: even if I knew with perfect clarity what my boss, or my God, wanted, I am still free to do it or not.

It's us that don't want peace. If we truly wanted peace by now we would all would accept all the Prophets but we refuse and insist on following our own ways.

Your understanding of human nature leaves something to be desired. You neglect to consider that, while we might want peace, we might also want (and need) other things just as much, and those wants and needs -- if they are in conflict with the wants and needs of others -- can lead to a decided loss of peace.

Where is our paradise from materialism or capitalism?

There is none. But then again, there is none in any other -ism that you can think of. Wishful thinking doesn't lead to much.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This, of course, is ludicrous in exactly the way that I have been demonstrating. I might grant that a wise being could make a mistake once, but to continue to make the same mistake, over and over and over again ("He sacrificed too many Prophets...") must surely demonstrate an inability to learn from one's own mistakes, let alone possess omniscience!

And I repeat what I've said before -- if the Prophet method fails (and it assuredly does, as you yourself just admitted) then surely God would choose something else. And the easiest (and easiest to understand) would be what I've been suggesting: let everybody know definitively in the same way that the Prophets "know." This does not get in the way of free will at all: even if I knew with perfect clarity what my boss, or my God, wanted, I am still free to do it or not.

Your understanding of human nature leaves something to be desired. You neglect to consider that, while we might want peace, we might also want (and need) other things just as much, and those wants and needs -- if they are in conflict with the wants and needs of others -- can lead to a decided loss of peace.

There is none. But then again, there is none in any other -ism that you can think of. Wishful thinking doesn't lead to much.

As to the sacrifice of Prophets. A seed inherently possesses fruit and a tree which we cannot see. By sacrificing itself in the ground however, it is able to bear fruit at a later date. I see nothing wrong with this method of God as it does produce fruit and always has in the hearts of men.

Baha'u'llah has written many Books they are available to all.

The current system humanity has is defective and we need a better one and that's why He came, to bring us the blueprint for a new world civilisation. Leaders both political and religious are gradually beginning to see the wisdom in the teachings Baha'u'llah has brung even if they do not openly acknowledge they are from Him.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

As to the sacrifice of Prophets. A seed inherently possesses fruit and a tree which we cannot see. By sacrificing itself in the ground however, it is able to bear fruit at a later date. I see nothing wrong with this method of God as it does produce fruit and always has in the hearts of men.

There are several things wrong with this, but the most important one is that it is in direct conflict with what you wrote above: "God has sacrificed too many Prophets..." (emphasis mine).

Second, the seed does not "inherently possess fruit," it contains the DNA that will allow for the development of a new plant. The difference might seem to subtle to you, but I believe it is important.

Baha'u'llah has written many Books they are available to all.

The current system humanity has is defective and we need a better one and that's why He came, to bring us the blueprint for a new world civilisation. Leaders both political and religious are gradually beginning to see the wisdom in the teachings Baha'u'llah has brung even if they do not openly acknowledge they are from Him.

As you said in the previous cited remark, "it does produce fruit and always has," and yet I have to point out to you that since Baha'u'llah wrote, the world has pretty much universally accepted automobiles, television, computers, space travel and a plethora of other wonders -- and yet something like .07% of the entire world has accepted this blueprint.

I'd like to point out that when Constantine became emperor of Rome in 306, Christianity was nothing more than a tiny, esoteric sect that basically nobody paid attention to. If you had suggested then that it would be the state religion, you would have been laughed out of the room -- even as today you'd be laughed out of the room for predicting that Hare Krishna will become the state religion of the USA. Yet, it happened! From what I can see, though they build absolutely lovely temples, the Baha'i faith remains far from that sort of success.

And to these old, experienced eyes, that still doesn't look like God has chosen the best plan.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I would like you to examine very carefully what you've said here, because each and every one of us has our own insights, our own ways of perceiving and understanding. But if I perceive differently than you, including the non-existence of anything that you would consider calling "God," then you are asserting that it is my soul and my given capacity and ability that are at fault -- and of course not yours.

Exactly how do you determine that? Is there some evidence OTHER than my capacity and ability to know and yours? Or do we each just assume that the other's capacities are faulty?

Not at all. We are all learning. Life is like a journey through different valleys. You and I may be travelling through different valleys at the same time. Both our experiences may be quite valid.

So for instance, one of us may be in the Valley of Search and another in the Valley of Unity that is why we might see conflict but these valleys all lead to the same destination which is truth.

“The stages that mark the wayfarer's journey from the abode of dust to the heavenly homeland are said to be seven. Some have called these Seven Valleys, and others, Seven Cities. And they say that until the wayfarer taketh leave of self, and traverseth these stages, he shall never reach to the ocean of nearness and union, nor drink of the peerless wine.”

Excerpt From: Bahá’u’lláh. “The Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys.”

 

[loverofhumanity]

There are several things wrong with this, but the most important one is that it is in direct conflict with what you wrote above: "God has sacrificed too many Prophets..." (emphasis mine).

Second, the seed does not "inherently possess fruit," it contains the DNA that will allow for the development of a new plant. The difference might seem to subtle to you, but I believe it is important.

As you said in the previous cited remark, "it does produce fruit and always has," and yet I have to point out to you that since Baha'u'llah wrote, the world has pretty much universally accepted automobiles, television, computers, space travel and a plethora of other wonders -- and yet something like .07% of the entire world has accepted this blueprint.

I'd like to point out that when Constantine became emperor of Rome in 306, Christianity was nothing more than a tiny, esoteric sect that basically nobody paid attention to. If you had suggested then that it would be the state religion, you would have been laughed out of the room -- even as today you'd be laughed out of the room for predicting that Hare Krishna will become the state religion of the USA. Yet, it happened! From what I can see, though they build absolutely lovely temples, the Baha'i faith remains far from that sort of success.

And to these old, experienced eyes, that still doesn't look like God has chosen the best plan.

You are correct that we still have yet to have been adopted as a state religion but for Christianity it took 300 years for that to occur and we are only 173 years old.

But if you examine Baha'u'llah's Teachings carefully you will definitely find that most of them have become universally accepted by humanity only not attributed to Him or unaware that He was their first Exponent.

 

[loverofhumanity]

But you could give us a few of them..

Baha'u'llah's Words predicting world consultation, collective security and world disarmament as well as the founding of world bodies lies enshrined in these Words..

"The Great Being, wishing to reveal the prerequisites of the peace and tranquillity of the world and the advancement of its peoples, hath written:

The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men. Such a peace demandeth that the Great Powers should resolve, for the sake of the tranquillity of the peoples of the earth, to be fully reconciled among themselves. Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories. This will ensure the peace and composure of every people, government and nation. We fain would hope that the kings and rulers of the earth, the mirrors of the gracious and almighty name of God, may attain unto this station, and shield mankind from the onslaught of tyranny." Baha'u'llah

 

[loverofhumanity]

But you could give us a few of them..

Another Proof is the Book of Certitude which explains the true interpretation of verses in the Quran and Bible including Seal of the Prophets and Christ coming in 'clouds'.

http://www.bahai.org/library/authoritative-texts/bahaullah/kitab-i-iqan/

 

[loverofhumanity]

But you could give us a few of them..

Here is a prophecy regarding the Internet by Shoghi Effendi the great grandson of Baha'u'llah. Written in the 1950's when the Internet was unheard of. I have given you a few. There are prophecies also from the Holy Quran and Bible. Again too numerous to mention.

"A mechanism of world inter-communication will be devised, embracing the whole planet, freed from national hindrances and restrictions, and functioning with marvellous swiftness and perfect regularity."

Source: The World Order of Bahaullah, page 203 - http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/WOB/ ... html#pg203

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

loverofhumanity, I'm never going to find a way to answer you, because you don't make any statements that admit of answer. You quote others, Baha'u'llah for example, and state that he could actually cite what "the Great Being hath written." Yet, there is not a single, solitary piece of such "writing" available anywhere in the world. You, of course, will not believe that Baha'u'llah didn't make it up -- but you could try for a trillion years to find the source that he claims to quote without being able to do so.

I would ask you to consider the writings of Joseph Smith (Book of Mormon) or Helen Shucman (A Course In Miracles) and tell me that you would accord them the same unqualified belief. And then I would ask you to tell me how, if you accord that belief, you reconcile all those different thought streams into one.

I recognize now, of course, that you will merely give me your rapturous religious imaginings, and I've no doubt that you believe them. But without one miniscule thread of evidence, there is nothing that even begins to speak to me. I come from a background that looks at science, reason, logic, evidence. Religion doesn't like those things very much.

 

[loverofhumanity]

But God could have just created world peace, surely, without having to bother sending Prophets who would not be listened to, or would be tortured or killed. After all, you said that God could create world peace in a second, but instead leaves it to man (and if He is omniscient, presumably knows what man is going to do with that freedom, i.e. not create world peace). That sounds like a god who doesn't really care all that much to me.

God created us to know and worship Him. The entire purpose of our existence is to know God. So He has placed us upon this earth to learn lessons which will enable us to know Him and draw close to Him. Why? Because He wishes to share His riches with us. Like a Father wants His children to inherit many wonderful things.

We learn from both obedience and disobedience to God. When we are disobedient things go wrong and then maybe we turn to His Teachings and when we obey Him and find things go right, again we draw close to God.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

One more thing that I would like to say about the notion that religious ideas are similar across religions, and therefore point to a single God.

All humans, every one, without exception, belongs to a single species, called Homo Sapiens. Every member of every species that we have ever encountered, behaves very much (not perfectly, but closely) like all the other members of the species. Ants all behave pretty much like ants. Wolves like wolves. Woolly caterpillars the same. Chimpanzees like other chimps, and bonobos like other bonobos -- and since chimps and bonobos are related, they share many behavioural patterns with each other.

So why would anybody be surprised if humans in Canada and humans in France behave much like one another? They're all human. Why would we expect humans in Africa to fly, while humans in Asia are condemned to walking (or driving Hyundais)?

Out stories are essentially the same because we are essentially the same. And part of that sameness includes the basic, indeed fundamental, conflict that truly defines homo sapiens -- we are a social animal, incapable of thriving without the support of our own kind, but we are also self-aware, and thus unlike other social species, can wish for (and try to attain) things that are at odds with our need for social support. (Prof Jacob Needleman wrote at length about this in his wonderful "Why Can't We Be Good?")

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

God created us to know and worship Him. The entire purpose of our existence is to know God.

Oh, for goodness sake, think about that. An omniscient, omnipotent spirit, is so freaking lonely and feeling ignored that he has to create an entire universe to notice him? Really? When was the last time you felt compelled to create anything whose sole purpose was to know and glorify you?

So He has placed us upon this earth to learn lessons which will enable us to know Him and draw close to Him. Why? Because He wishes to share His riches with us. Like a Father wants His children to inherit many wonderful things.

Again, consider. There is God. There is nothing else. God needs nothing else -- how could He and still be God? And all of a sudden, there's this urge to have somebody to share "His riches" with? This is purest fantasy. Either God IS (and thus is self-sufficient unto Himself), and consequently has no need of any of this rubbish, or you're just making it all up as part of a story that helps you find a way to understand you. That understanding, just so you know, says absolutely nothing about God. Be very clear about this -- if you are not God, you do not know what (or if) God wants.

We learn from both obedience and disobedience to God. When we are disobedient things go wrong and then maybe we turn to His Teachings and when we obey Him and find things go right, again we draw close to God.

The most trivial search will find you examples of obedience going very wrong, and disobedience going spectacularly right.

But that's why we invented heaven and hell, isn't it -- a vain attempt to even things up after we die, since we can't manage it while we live.

 

[loverofhumanity]

One more thing that I would like to say about the notion that religious ideas are similar across religions, and therefore point to a single God.

All humans, every one, without exception, belongs to a single species, called Homo Sapiens. Every member of every species that we have ever encountered, behaves very much (not perfectly, but closely) like all the other members of the species. Ants all behave pretty much like ants. Wolves like wolves. Woolly caterpillars the same. Chimpanzees like other chimps, and bonobos like other bonobos -- and since chimps and bonobos are related, they share many behavioural patterns with each other.

So why would anybody be surprised if humans in Canada and humans in France behave much like one another? They're all human. Why would we expect humans in Africa to fly, while humans in Asia are condemned to walking (or driving Hyundais)?

Out stories are essentially the same because we are essentially the same. And part of that sameness includes the basic, indeed fundamental, conflict that truly defines homo sapiens -- we are a social animal, incapable of thriving without the support of our own kind, but we are also self-aware, and thus unlike other social species, can wish for (and try to attain) things that are at odds with our need for social support. (Prof Jacob Needleman wrote at length about this in his wonderful "Why Can't We Be Good?")

That's an excellent article!! Thank you! Many profound truths.

 

[McBell]

Here is a prophecy regarding the Internet by Shoghi Effendi the great grandson of Baha'u'llah. Written in the 1950's when the Internet was unheard of. I have given you a few. There are prophecies also from the Holy Quran and Bible. Again too numerous to mention.

"A mechanism of world inter-communication will be devised, embracing the whole planet, freed from national hindrances and restrictions, and functioning with marvellous swiftness and perfect regularity."

Source: The World Order of Bahaullah, page 203 - http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/WOB/ ... html#pg203

Seems to me that the telephone would "fulfill" that "prophecy"...

 

[loverofhumanity]

Oh, for goodness sake, think about that. An omniscient, omnipotent spirit, is so freaking lonely and feeling ignored that he has to create an entire universe to notice him? Really? When was the last time you felt compelled to create anything whose sole purpose was to know and glorify you?

Again, consider. There is God. There is nothing else. God needs nothing else -- how could He and still be God? And all of a sudden, there's this urge to have somebody to share "His riches" with? This is purest fantasy. Either God IS (and thus is self-sufficient unto Himself), and consequently has no need of any of this rubbish, or you're just making it all up as part of a story that helps you find a way to understand you. That understanding, just so you know, says absolutely nothing about God. Be very clear about this -- if you are not God, you do not know what (or if) God wants.

The most trivial search will find you examples of obedience going very wrong, and disobedience going spectacularly right.

But that's why we invented heaven and hell, isn't it -- a vain attempt to even things up after we die, since we can't manage it while we live.

It may seem that way to you but I assure you I am telling you the complete truth. Definitely not a fantasy or made up but God's Words not mine. Decide for yourself.

“O Son of the Wondrous Vision!

I have breathed within thee a breath of My own Spirit, that thou mayest be My lover. Why hast thou forsaken Me and sought a beloved other than Me?”


“O Son of Man!

I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.”

Excerpt From: Bahá'u'lláh. “The Hidden Words.” Bahá’í

 

[loverofhumanity]

Seems to me that the telephone would "fulfill" that "prophecy"...

It could have, except at the time that was written, the telephone had already been invented so it was referring to something else. The words 'will be' infers something not already in existence which was the Internet.

 

[McBell]

It could have, except at the time that was written, the telephone had already been invented so it was referring to something else. The words 'will be' infers something not already in existence which was the Internet.

If that "prophecy" is enough to convince you, I have to mention some Beach front property I have for sale in Colorado

 

[JustWondering]

Hello all,

I'm in the process of looking at different belief systems, and I've tried to summarise why I am beginning to settle on belief in God & specifically Islam.

Getting some challenge from your sharp debating minds would be immensely helpful to highlight any shortcomings in my current thinking.

Context: The Qur’an is a book which is claimed to be from God, written mostly in the first person, and said to have been revealed between 609-632 AD orally via Muhammed. It is claimed that Muhammed had direct interactions with Gabriel throughout the revelation of the Qur’an.

Basic structure:

If the following conditions are true:

1. Muhammed brought the Qur’an
   
2. The Qur’an has not materially changed since the point of its arrival
   
3. Muhammed genuinely believed that the Qur’an was from God
   
4. The Qur’an, along with its effects on people, are beyond what can realistically be expected from the products of someone with mental illness

Then: There is almost certainly a genuine supernatural nature to the core text of Islam that is available to us today



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



1. Muhammed brought the Qur’an

• There are many thousands of records called ‘Hadith’ that make reference to the Prophet Muhammed & his life, including Qur’anic revelation
  
• There are some corroborating records in contemporary times from non-Arab sources that mention Muhammed & the Qur’an
  
• There are no contemporary sources that even suggest Mohammed didn’t exist or didn’t bring the Qur’an

2. The Qur’an has not materially changed since the point of its arrival

• The earliest manuscript is the Birmingham manuscript, held in the University of Birmingham (http://www.birmingham.ac.uk/news/latest/2015/07/quran-manuscript-22-07-15.aspx) – this is carbon dated between 568 AD & 645 AD
  
• There are other very old manuscripts, e.g. Sana’a manuscript from before 671 AD
  
• None of the contents of these manuscripts varies in a material way from the modern Qur’an
  
• The official Islamic story of the Qur’an’s compilation is that it was revealed orally to Muhammed between 609-632 AD. It was then compiled into a book soon after his death, before which it was transmitted orally. The compilation into today’s standard edition took place in ~650 AD.
  
• Given the nomadic Arab oral tradition, it is very believable that the Qur’an would have remained mostly unchanged in the max. 10-20 year period before it was written down. To illustrate, even today, some nomadic Arabs are able to recite hours of poetry by heart

3. Muhammed genuinely believed that the Qur’an was from God
The potential motivations for Muhammed to recite the Qur’an to his people can be summarised in this tree:

An analysis of the factors mentioned in the above tree is as follows:

4. The Qur’an, along with its effects on people, are beyond what can realistically be expected from the products of someone with mental illness

• Schizophrenic patients or those with schizophrenic traits will often display ‘Knight’s move thinking’ – switching between ideas with little or no connection without warning. Those with schizotypal personality disorder also often exhibit unusual speech structures & unnatural shifts between ideas. On the other hand, the Qur’an is able to deliver coherent stories & makes a clear transition from one idea to the next
  
• Manic disorder/bipolar disorder is often characterised by hyperexcitable speech & flight of ideas. As explained above, the Qur’an is able to hold an idea/story & explain it, and there is a clear transition from one idea to the next. Furthermore, the tone of the Qur’an is consistent throughout, which indicates an absence of bipolar wild mood swings in the compilation of the Qur’an
  
• Muhammed claimed to interact directly with Gabriel when receiving Qur’anic revelations, including visual, auditory & physical contact. Schizophrenic hallucinations are usually only auditory, and usually have a negative connotation. In general, hallucinations are nowhere near as well developed as the experiences which Muhammed is claimed to have gone through.
  
• Epileptic hallucinations are even less likely to cause the combination of visual, auditory & physical contact with a person, especially not on a recurrent basis
  
• Furthermore, the Arabic Qur’an recitation demonstrates signs of having been written by someone with considerable intelligence. It has a certain rhythm which many find appealing, and a sense of authority which many find makes it easy to believe. These features are not easy to imitate. Most mental illnesses, including epilepsy, are correlated with a lower IQ, which makes it less likely that the Qur’an could have been produced by someone with a mental disorder

Seems you are starting with the assumption that there must be a god of some kind. Why do you think that you need a belief system that embraces unproven and unsupported supernatural claims and ancient mythology? Being an atheist is much easier. Gods and spirits don't bother me, I don't bother (with) them. Why invest so much time and effort building a belief system up around invisible entities that likely don't exist?