Searching for proof of God/Islam - Tell me why I'm wrong

[loverofhumanity]

Fair enough.
However, you seem to have confused the issue.

Do you mean that there must be a prophet intermediary in order for a religion to be a religion?

Yes most definitely. We understand that all our knowledge about God comes from These Representatives of God.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Not exactly. There are prophecies revealed in each religion about the coming of the next Revelation as well as the coming of Baha'u'llah. From Adam to Muhammad was the Prophetic Cycle where promises were made to humanity and if you read all the books about these religions they all have an Apocalypse scenario referring to a time of the end and things like world peace etc But if you read the Writings of Baha'u'llah there is no apocalyptic scenario anymore because we are now in th Cycle of Fulfillment when the world will be united and war will come to an end and humanity is maturing.

I do not know quite how you manage it, but it is apparent to me that you can't even perceive your own cognitive dissonance. All you have managed to do in the paragraph above is to say essentially this: "there were a lot of prophecies about stuff, and the latest one (which I believe) denies the others. See? No contradiction!" When in fact, that is the largest contradiction of all, since you have also said that all prophecies come from the same God.

There is no contradiction at all. Each Manifestation brought laws and teachings for the age and each subsequent Manifestation brought new teachings for the new age. Christ brought teachings for the individual, Muhammad brought laws for Community and Baha'u'llah brought laws for world unity. See how they perfectly compliment one another?

No, frankly, I do not. And if I may say, neither do the believers in any of those prophets, who are all essentially antagonistic to one another. When things "perfectly compliment one another," they usually don't wind up in quite so much conflict. I'm not sure what it is you have to ignore not to see those conflicts, but perhaps I'll learn as you continue to write.

And again Buddha taught things like enlightenment and meditation and Christ taught love and forgiveness and Baha'u'llah teaches to love all mankind. Where's the contradiction?

Well, if you so over-simplify major world religions to that extent, how could they be in disagreement? But your depiction of those religions, whatever you personally might think of them, don't really seem very consistent with what the vast majority of people who claim to be believers in them. But perhaps you know all those people better than they do themselves.

They are all complimentary and really the same Faith but like an embryo progressively developing and maturing. To accept we were once a child and a teenager does not contradict itself. The confusion has arisen because instead of each religion accepting the following religion they rejected it so we ended up with multiple religions instead of one.

"This is the changeless Faith of God eternal in the past, eternal in the future" - Baha'u'llah

See it? "Progressively developing and maturing," juxtaposed against "changeless Faith?" Changeless doesn't develop. Maturing necessarily involves change.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This still leaves the basic and intractable problem: lots of prophets, lots of claim to "revealing God's Will," lots of contradiction between them, no way to know which is right except to decide for yourself. This is a bizarre and ultimately foolish way for anybody to try to get a message out, let alone an omniscient and omnipotent deity.

There is no contradiction if one understands the concept of the oneness religion. Religions can be understood as complimentary if one learns to discern between the essential oneness of all religions and those transient laws which were only for a particular age and people.

"There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. The difference between the ordinances under which they abide should be attributed to the varying requirements and exigencies of the age in which they were revealed. "

 

[McBell]

Yes most definitely. We understand that all our knowledge about God comes from These Representatives of God.

And you do not see any issues with this type of "telephone" delivery system?

 

[loverofhumanity]

I do not know quite how you manage it, but it is apparent to me that you can't even perceive your own cognitive dissonance. All you have managed to do in the paragraph above is to say essentially this: "there were a lot of prophecies about stuff, and the latest one (which I believe) denies the others. See? No contradiction!" When in fact, that is the largest contradiction of all, since you have also said that all prophecies come from the same God.

No, frankly, I do not. And if I may say, neither do the believers in any of those prophets, who are all essentially antagonistic to one another. When things "perfectly compliment one another," they usually don't wind up in quite so much conflict. I'm not sure what it is you have to ignore not to see those conflicts, but perhaps I'll learn as you continue to write.

Well, if you so over-simplify major world religions to that extent, how could they be in disagreement? But your depiction of those religions, whatever you personally might think of them, don't really seem very consistent with what the vast majority of people who claim to be believers in them. But perhaps you know all those people better than they do themselves.

See it? "Progressively developing and maturing," juxtaposed against "changeless Faith?" Changeless doesn't develop. Maturing necessarily involves change.

Have you studied all these religions and their Holy Books in depth including Bahaullah's Writings?

If we read the Holy Books we will see many similarities even among the followers.

The changeless refers to the essence of religion. For instance the virtues such as love and forgiveness are eternal principles. They are changeless.

Each age had its own laws revealed for that time. Each illness requires a different medicine. The Prophets applied the necessary remedies for their time. The needs of this time are different and require different solutions.

All the religions are connected in many, many ways if one goes into depth and studies their essential verities. The outward ordinances are different for each age's needs.

At first, like you, all I saw was the conflict, but as I learned more I realised they all come from the same Source and are all teaching the same eternal truths and only differ with the laws for their age.

See how change is resisted by man even good change, science once was considered from the devil and people were persecuted for practising it yet now, after learning it is for our benefit we no longer feel threatened and humanity has wholeheartedly embraced technology and the age of science.

So it is with the oneness of religion. At first people see conflict. But as they come to know it is a wonderful concept that will bring them rich rewards they will embrace it.

Humanity is maturing and we are all learning new things. We have more in common to look at than we have to fight over. We only need to be encouraged to look at the good and try and be positive and move forward not get trapped in negativeness. War and conflict was a result of our immaturity. If we see our oneness and look at the good in all people and religions we can move into an era of peace.

We can't change the past but we can move forward by emphasising the good in humanity and encouraging it.
.

 

[loverofhumanity]

And you do not see any issues with this type of "telephone" delivery system?

This is how I would explain it. The Prophets or Teachers are like the Rays of the Sun. If the Sun itself were to descend we would all be destroyed as we cannot bear its intensity. But we can benefit from its rays, light and heat which sustains all life.

So for God to descend directly would be like the sun. Therefore we need an intermediary which are the Rays to bring us the light and warmth of the sun which are the Prophets and Teachers.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

But back to prophets and scripture. What if -- just what if -- it's all the honest and diligent effort by well-meaning and intelligent people to understand the inexplicable mysteries of human life: D'où Venons Nous / Que Sommes Nous / Où Allons Nous in the words of Paul Gaugin. What if we assume (as I think we should) that no human being, despite his best efforts, can ever answer those awesome questions?

That is of course a possibility.

Ought we not, in any case, continue to try? That's the core of my "faith." That's what I truly believe -- not anything I've been told, but what I can grasp for myself, if I try hard.

Oh absolutely, I agree.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Baha'u'llah only acknowledges religions as true if they are revealed by God. Human or man made religion is seen by Him as not true religions but man made.

Okay, so how do we know if a religion has been revealed by God?

 

[The_Fisher_King]

God could create world peace in a second but He leaves it for man to make his own decisions and learn which way is best from his own mistakes.

So God doesn't really care about world peace then..

 

[loverofhumanity]

So God doesn't really care about world peace then..

God cares too much about Peace. He sacrificed too many Prophets to try and teach us peace. But we stoned Them and tried to kill Them.

It's us that don't want peace. If we truly wanted peace by now we would all would accept all the Prophets but we refuse and insist on following our own ways.

Where is our paradise from materialism or capitalism?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Okay, so how do we know if a religion has been revealed by God?

Through our soul we all have been given the capacity and ability to know God through His Prophets. It is like eyes except it allows us to perceive the existence of God and know His Prophets if it is pure.

 

[LuisDantas]

God cares too much about Peace. He sacrificed too many Prophets to try and teach us peace. But we stoned Them and tried to kill Them.

It's us that don't want peace. If we truly wanted peace by now we would all would accept all the Prophets but we refuse and insist on following our own ways.

Where is our paradise from materialism or capitalism?

That is circular thinking. You are working from the unlikely premise that God is all-powerful yet prefers not to or lacks the means to use his power to either establish peace or gift humanity with the wisdom to do it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That is circular thinking. You are working from the unlikely premise that God is all-powerful yet prefers not to or lacks the means to use his power to either establish peace or gift humanity with the wisdom to do it.

Humanity has been offered a solution for its problems by Baha'u'llah - world unity and the oneness of humanity. But we are free to reject or accept it as we please.

 

[LuisDantas]

Humanity has been offered a solution for its problems by Baha'u'llah - world unity and the oneness of humanity. But we are free to reject or accept it as we please.

That is what you believe in, not demonstrably the truth.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

God cares too much about Peace. He sacrificed too many Prophets to try and teach us peace. But we stoned Them and tried to kill Them.

All of them? What about the prophets that encouraged murder, rape, etc?

If the Sun itself were to descend we would all be destroyed as we cannot bear its intensity. But we can benefit from its rays, light and heat which sustains all life.

I don't need someone to intercede to tell me about sunlight, though. I can sense it myself. Even the blind can feel the heat of the sunlight...

 

[loverofhumanity]

All of them? What about the prophets that encouraged murder, rape, etc?


I don't need someone to intercede to tell me about sunlight, though. I can sense it myself. Even the blind can feel the heat of the sunlight...

Hello Kelly,

The Prophets of God only taught good.

If it wasn't for God's Prophets we would never know God exists.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That is what you believe in, not demonstrably the truth.

There's so many proofs there's simply no room to put them all here.

 

[LuisDantas]

There's so many proofs there's simply no room to put them all here.

A bold statement, for sure.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

God cares too much about Peace. He sacrificed too many Prophets to try and teach us peace. But we stoned Them and tried to kill Them.

It's us that don't want peace. If we truly wanted peace by now we would all would accept all the Prophets but we refuse and insist on following our own ways.

Where is our paradise from materialism or capitalism?

But God could have just created world peace, surely, without having to bother sending Prophets who would not be listened to, or would be tortured or killed. After all, you said that God could create world peace in a second, but instead leaves it to man (and if He is omniscient, presumably knows what man is going to do with that freedom, i.e. not create world peace). That sounds like a god who doesn't really care all that much to me.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Through our soul we all have been given the capacity and ability to know God through His Prophets. It is like eyes except it allows us to perceive the existence of God and know His Prophets if it is pure.

Okay, but how do we know who God's Prophets are?