I don't think we're there yet!
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Searching for proof of God/Islam - Tell me why I'm wrong
- Thread starter Arkannine21
- Start date
I don't think we're there yet!
That's not a proof. It's one among several interpretations. How do you know it is the true interpretation?
I'm not sure that's really a prophecy, at least of the kind that might be taken as proof of the Divine Origin of the Baha'i Faith. Given the existence at the time and ongoing developments with telephony and the invention of the transistor, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to imagine such a mechanism of inter-communication such as that above, particularly if one is committed to the notion of a coming world government.
Also, what prophecies from the Holy Qur'aan are you referring to above?
So, from what you have said, God values the creation of beings who will (slowly) come to know Him and draw close to Him - often painfully, through suffering and war - more than world peace, it seems.
They are not your words, I grant you. But how will you establish your claim that they are "God's Words," especially given the plainly obvious fact that they were written (as you yourself make clear) by Bahá'u'lláh? Before you bother to answer, I'll tell you -- it's because you believe it, and no other reason.
Lots of people -- lots of very, very smart people -- say and write a lot of things. One of the smartest humans who ever lived, Sir Isaac Newton, produced some of the most amazing science the world had ever seen, in his Philisophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica, and in his Optics. The world had never seen anything like it before. Yet, anybody who cares to put in just a very little effort can now easily reproduce everything that he did -- proving for themselves the correctness of what he wrote.
Yet, of the 10 million or so words Newton wrote, about 1 million were devoted to alchemy, and his search for the Philosopher's Stone (shades of Harry Potter!).
I do not credit any of that, because it was all plainly bogus, as anyone now can see. But this does not reduce my awe at his accomplishments in Principia and Optics, because these are real and reproducible. He was a product of his own time, as we all are, and couldn't escape the beliefs of his own contemporary milieu.
In the same way, Bahá'u'lláh, or Shoghi Effendi, or anybody else, for that matter, can write whatever the heck they want, but if they have precisely zero way to demonstrate the truth of what they write, and if there is no possible way for anybody else to independently access their source or provenance, there's no reason at all for me to give them any credence.
I notice, by the way, that you ignored my invitation to discuss whether you would accept the writings of Helen Shucman (A Course in Miracles) or Joseph Smith (Book of Mormon). Why is that?
Firstly, please accept my apologies about not responding about Joseph Smith and Helen Shucman. It was very late and I needed to sleep. But not ignored deliberately. I'm in Australia so at times people are posting in the USA its very, very late here. I hope you will understand. Thanks for reminding me.
“As for the status of Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon Faith, he is not considered by Bahá’ís to be a prophet, minor or otherwise. But of course he was a religious teacher”
Mormons “They have many good principles..
Excerpt From: Hornby. “Lights of Guidance.”
As to Helen Shucman thank you for pointing her out to me.
Truth is everywhere there is much truth in what both the Joseph Smith taught and I saw beautiful truths in A Couse in Miracles website. We do not see them as the Word of God meaning that they were not new religions with new Prophets but restatements of Christianity. So we would respect both and learn from both as well as consider both as equal fellow humans.
How do I know. Well you're right that I believe it but because both my mind, that is, intellect or reason, as well as spirit, soul or emotional intuitions tell me it makes sense also.
Baha'u'llah makes too much common sense to just ignore as a fantasy, that's the aggravating problem I had as an atheist. Many of the solutions He offered for today's world are just so practical and spot on. Things like abolishing Holy war and priesthood and disputes to be solved through consultation not consultation. Collective security ,a world language, equality between men and women, moderation in all things, promotion of religious tolerance and so many more. Taken as a whole it's just a very good direction and a very positive one He is advocating we take. So it's not just belief but measured against our needs today. We need more than anything a recipe, a formula, an outlook or attitude that will enable us all to get along in a nuclear age. And it is a very good and viable package not just an airy fairy in the sky emotional outburst.
Baha'u'llah advocates things like a world parliament, a world metropolis which I think would be Jerusalem as its claimed by almost everybody, a world currency, a world system of weights and measures, an International Tribunal which we now have. And much, much more. You're just seeing a drop in the ocean but no fair minded person can say we do not need these teachings and or incisors today. He said that if there wasn't enough money to educate all the children then the girl is more important as she is the future mother. How profound is that. These are the kinds of things which make me feel honoured to be associated with.
You may view the God part of Bahaullah's teachings as not compatible with your outlook but there's a whole lot more than that which is sheer. Fill once considering the timing of the Writings and the age we find ourselves in.
Can you imagine what Baha'u'llah would look like by saying this if the technology did not come about to support it??
"The world is but one country and mankind its citizens"
No, a God values all life regardless of whether we believe or not. He does not choose war for us that is our choice.
The Book of Certitude reinterprets the Quran. It explains the true meaning of the mysteries of the Bible and Quran that have baffled the greatest thinkers for centuries.
Without these 'keys' to unlock the meanings, both the Quran and Bible's mysteries remain locked and hidden. the Master Key is the Words of Baha'u'llah. That is what we believe.
This is a link to prophecies in the Quran about Baha'u'llah
http://bahai-library.com/books/announcement.quran/
For myself I know it is true behind any doubt whatsoever.
It's a matter of researching the actual Words of Baha'u'llah for oneself.
And comparing what they say to our time and whether He had His Fingers on humanty's pulse and prescribed the right medicine.
But He did choose to create human beings knowing full well that they would choose war and cause untold suffering (even though He didn't need to). Clearly, then, the creation of human beings was/is more important to Him than avoiding war.
Not to me they don't!
You believe it to be true - because it feels true to you - and that is absolutely fine. But it does not constitute a proof of the kind that is in principle universally acceptable.
Sure. I have read Baha'u'llah's works for myself (and spoken with many Baha'is, in many different contexts).
But you said that Baha'u'llah's words predict collective security and world disarmament. I don't see any of those things in the world today. So I don't think we can take that as proof of Baha'u'llah's status as a Manifestation (at least yet - we don't of course know what is yet to come).
Collective security and world disarmament yet to be agreed upon by all nations things like coalition if the willing and the nuclear proliferation treaty are steps towards these objectives.
It depends on how one understands Baha'u'llah. People who saw Muhammad as just a political leader didn't benefit as much spiritually as those who saw Him as a Prophet of God.
Yes but God sees the next world too and can easily more than compensate anyone for an injustice committed against him here.
There have always been alliances, pacts and treaties between tribes and nations.
Sure, but your earlier claim is not then true.
But that it is a different point.