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Searching for proof of God/Islam - Tell me why I'm wrong

Shad

Veteran Member
It's almost deceptive here. Qu'ran as a whole book is never verifiable. The parchment is just a small part of the whole book. So no one can tell if today's Qu'ran is the same book published 1500 years ago.

God's messages, if anything critical to humans, must be conveyed consistently throughout history.

OT Bible:
We have a whole library (Dead Sea Scrolls) with complete books for us to draw the conclusion that theologically the same contents remain in today's Bible.

We have an authorized earthly entity to maintain its consistency strictly to prevent any adding or removing of contents. The canonization of OT was serious done and maintained.

NT Bible:
We have 2 whole book artifacts (NIV stream of Bibles), and another independent source (KJV stream) for us to cross reference to draw the conclusion that the same theology is conveying today as it was some 2000 years ago.

We have another authorized earthly entity to maintain its consistency strictly to prevent any adding and removing or contents. The canonization of NT was serious done and maintained.

It's the work of a serious God for a serious message (of salvation) to convey.



Your own argument fails for the same reason you put forward for the Quran. You have zero contemporary sources for the NT. You have no contemporary sources for Moses nor even a complete manuscript before the exile. There is one scrap of a manuscript dating to 650 BCE which contains 8 variants of verses. That is all. So if using your argument you have no evidence of David, Moses, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, etc, etc. You should dismiss the Bible with far more ease than you do the Quran. Alas you don't.

The Quran as complied in a serious manner and maintain to a far greater and near contemporary level than any of the Bibles. It was also maintain better give far large near contemporary manuscripts, or parts of. So this argument fails for you.

You are parroting dogma not scholarship,
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
They do not share the same view of Christ so the point is moot.

Both the Bible and Quran do share the same view that Jesus was a Prophet sent by God.

Prophet, Christ as Deuteronomy 18:18 Matthew 21:11 Matthew 21:46 Mark 6:15 Luke 7:16 Luke 13:33 Luke 24:19 John 4:19 John 6:14 John 7:40 John 9:17 Acts 3:22 (Thompson's Chain reference Bible)
 
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Shad

Veteran Member
The Quran accepts Christ as a Prophet which the Bible also states and is in total agreeance with.

This is not the interpretation from a Christian point of view so your point is still moot. It seems like you know nothing about even the basics of Christianity.

The Bible is the authority on Christ not Christians. What Christ said about Himself is what really matters not the views of Christians.

But your interpretation is correct because you believe it.. Hilarious double standard.

Prophet, Christ as Deuteronomy 18:18 Matthew 21:11 Matthew 21:46 Mark 6:15 Luke 7:16 Luke 13:33 Luke 24:19 John 4:19 John 6:14 John 7:40 John 9:17 Acts 3:22

Which is still based on your interpretation with is not the Christian interpretation. Your views do not trump others views because you believe they do.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+28:19
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1:1-18
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+10:38


Try reading the Bible next time.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
To me all religious ideas are wrong, because they are only ideas, there is no proof, the only true proof is from within each one of us, and you cannot make a religion out of that.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
The Bible is the true Word of God. There is no conflict between Christ and Muhammad. They both came from God, taught about God and brought Teachings and a Holy Book to guide humanity.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
To me all religious ideas are wrong, because they are only ideas, there is no proof, the only true proof is from within each one of us, and you cannot make a religion out of that.


The world needs unity, love and peace and we all need to learn to get along together much better.

We should be talking about our common humanity.

Any religion that teaches that other religions are false is no religion.
 

zahra67

Active Member
Yeah. That's because even they know he is no savior. His grave is with us to this day. The same cannot be said about the true savior, who will be blessed forever and ever, Amen.

Mohammed taught that the Bible is wrong. He taught that the Apostles are liars and that Christians are liars because they proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ. To follow Mohammed is to forsake Christ.

Do not hear such evil, brother, I pray thee with all my heart.
un the contrary, all moslims believe other previous prophet who are sent from God.
islam is compleation and perfection of other previous religions not against them.
islam is the compleated version of other religions.
in the holy Quran we have many verses about history of prophets, we respect them have faith in prophecy of them, and even if one moslim person does not accept one of other prophet he-she is not a believer!
we have many verses in the holy quran about prophet jesus and his honorable mother mary peace be upon them,
and even God introduced mary as a great exempler for all faithfuls.
i invite you to study my post prophet jesus and his honorable mother mary peace be upon him in this website.
thanks for your attention.
God bless you all.
 

zahra67

Active Member
Hello all,

I'm in the process of looking at different belief systems, and I've tried to summarise why I am beginning to settle on belief in God & specifically Islam.

Getting some challenge from your sharp debating minds would be immensely helpful to highlight any shortcomings in my current thinking.

Context: The Qur’an is a book which is claimed to be from God, written mostly in the first person, and said to have been revealed between 609-632 AD orally via Muhammed. It is claimed that Muhammed had direct interactions with Gabriel throughout the revelation of the Qur’an.

Basic structure:

If the following conditions are true:
  1. Muhammed brought the Qur’an
  2. The Qur’an has not materially changed since the point of its arrival
  3. Muhammed genuinely believed that the Qur’an was from God
  4. The Qur’an, along with its effects on people, are beyond what can realistically be expected from the products of someone with mental illness
Then: There is almost certainly a genuine supernatural nature to the core text of Islam that is available to us today



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



1. Muhammed brought the Qur’an
  • There are many thousands of records called ‘Hadith’ that make reference to the Prophet Muhammed & his life, including Qur’anic revelation
  • There are some corroborating records in contemporary times from non-Arab sources that mention Muhammed & the Qur’an
  • There are no contemporary sources that even suggest Mohammed didn’t exist or didn’t bring the Qur’an

2. The Qur’an has not materially changed since the point of its arrival
  • The earliest manuscript is the Birmingham manuscript, held in the University of Birmingham (http://www.birmingham.ac.uk/news/latest/2015/07/quran-manuscript-22-07-15.aspx) – this is carbon dated between 568 AD & 645 AD
  • There are other very old manuscripts, e.g. Sana’a manuscript from before 671 AD
  • None of the contents of these manuscripts varies in a material way from the modern Qur’an
  • The official Islamic story of the Qur’an’s compilation is that it was revealed orally to Muhammed between 609-632 AD. It was then compiled into a book soon after his death, before which it was transmitted orally. The compilation into today’s standard edition took place in ~650 AD.
  • Given the nomadic Arab oral tradition, it is very believable that the Qur’an would have remained mostly unchanged in the max. 10-20 year period before it was written down. To illustrate, even today, some nomadic Arabs are able to recite hours of poetry by heart

3. Muhammed genuinely believed that the Qur’an was from God
The potential motivations for Muhammed to recite the Qur’an to his people can be summarised in this tree:
temp1.png


An analysis of the factors mentioned in the above tree is as follows:

temp4.png

4. The Qur’an, along with its effects on people, are beyond what can realistically be expected from the products of someone with mental illness
  • Schizophrenic patients or those with schizophrenic traits will often display ‘Knight’s move thinking’ – switching between ideas with little or no connection without warning. Those with schizotypal personality disorder also often exhibit unusual speech structures & unnatural shifts between ideas. On the other hand, the Qur’an is able to deliver coherent stories & makes a clear transition from one idea to the next
  • Manic disorder/bipolar disorder is often characterised by hyperexcitable speech & flight of ideas. As explained above, the Qur’an is able to hold an idea/story & explain it, and there is a clear transition from one idea to the next. Furthermore, the tone of the Qur’an is consistent throughout, which indicates an absence of bipolar wild mood swings in the compilation of the Qur’an
  • Muhammed claimed to interact directly with Gabriel when receiving Qur’anic revelations, including visual, auditory & physical contact. Schizophrenic hallucinations are usually only auditory, and usually have a negative connotation. In general, hallucinations are nowhere near as well developed as the experiences which Muhammed is claimed to have gone through.
  • Epileptic hallucinations are even less likely to cause the combination of visual, auditory & physical contact with a person, especially not on a recurrent basis
  • Furthermore, the Arabic Qur’an recitation demonstrates signs of having been written by someone with considerable intelligence. It has a certain rhythm which many find appealing, and a sense of authority which many find makes it easy to believe. These features are not easy to imitate. Most mental illnesses, including epilepsy, are correlated with a lower IQ, which makes it less likely that the Qur’an could have been produced by someone with a mental disorder
hi.
i can help you in this regard and find books to send you for more study.
i read your post, many sentences which i could not understand, because my english is not complete excuse me.
but many of your sentences which are understood are true. dont worry.
God helps the people who strive in his path and guide them to his special ways!
prophet Mohammad does not bring the holy quran, recieved it via revelation of God and convate them to others without any distortion.
God confirms and guaranteed maintaining his holy book for guidance of all mankind.
in chapter 15, verse 9, the all merciful God says:
Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
We believe we are all one human family and that no race or religion is superior to another and to promote understanding between peoples, races, religions and nations is the most important duty of every human being on this planet.

In what sense do you mean 'superior' here?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Yes the Quran and the Bible. Anything else falls under interpretation and tradition and is subject to error.

Only the Quran and Bible are free from error including Muhammad and Christ.

The information about Aisha is incorrect. It is based on one Hadith. The recorder could easily have made a typo stating 9 instead of 19 and there are no birth certificates to prove this allegation.

When the United Nations was formed a typo was made calling it the 'untied nations'.

I agree that the followers of both Faiths have made mistakes and committed atrocities. But Christ and Muhammad and the Bible and the Quran are perfect. That people have not obeyed Them is not the fault of either.

Both in the Bible and Quran interpretation of prophecies is forbidden.

Sura 39:69 says that another One will come after Muhammad

And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord (Allah, when He will come to judge among men) and the Book will be placed (open) and the Prophets and the witnesses will be brought forward, and it will be judged between them with truth, and they will not be wronged.

The Bible also speaks of a New Revelation from God

“The new things that are to be received and enjoyed hereafter are: a new name, the believer’s, Rev. 2:17; a new name, the Lord’s, Rev. 3:12; a new song, Rev. 5:9; a new Heaven and a new Earth, Rev. 21:1; the new Jerusalem, Rev. 3:12; 21:2; ‘And He that sitteth on the Throne said, Behold, I make all things new,’ Rev. 21:

Both the Quran and Bible are speaking about Baha'u'llah
How in the world can both the Bible and the Qur'an be "perfect" when the Qur'an accuses the Gospels of being lies. Christianity teaches that Christ is the Savior of the world, the King of Heaven, God incarnate, that He was crucified, etc. Islam teaches none of those things and accuses Christians of being liars and changing the Gospels. You cannot believe in both the Bible and the Qur'an at the same time, unless you pick and choose.

The Bible says nothing about Muhammad or Baha'u'llah. People who claim that are misinterpreting verses by taking them out of their obvious context in the scriptures while also ignoring their theological context. The verses from Revelation you quoted are speaking of the Eschaton - the End of Time and the remaking of Heaven and Earth. None of that has anything to do with some new prophet or messenger coming.

Also, I have a question. Why do I see Baha'is capitalizing the pronouns of Christ, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah? Speaking as a Christian, we only capitalize pronouns when referring to God.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Okay, but I'm not talking about religionists, I'm talking about religions. Are all religions equal/deserving of equal respect in your eyes?

What are you defining as religion? Things like terrorism and satanism are not seen as religion by us so let's be clear about the definition of religion first.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
How in the world can both the Bible and the Qur'an be "perfect" when the Qur'an accuses the Gospels of being lies. Christianity teaches that Christ is the Savior of the world, the King of Heaven, God incarnate, that He was crucified, etc. Islam teaches none of those things and accuses Christians of being liars and changing the Gospels. You cannot believe in both the Bible and the Qur'an at the same time, unless you pick and choose.

The Bible says nothing about Muhammad or Baha'u'llah. People who claim that are misinterpreting verses by taking them out of their obvious context in the scriptures while also ignoring their theological context. The verses from Revelation you quoted are speaking of the Eschaton - the End of Time and the remaking of Heaven and Earth. None of that has anything to do with some new prophet or messenger coming.

Also, I have a question. Why do I see Baha'is capitalizing the pronouns of Christ, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah? Speaking as a Christian, we only capitalize pronouns when referring to God.

It's all a matter of how one interprets these Holy Books. I see absolutely no conflict at all between them.

We capitalise them because they are God's Messengers or Prophets as distinct from just ordinary people. They are very precious.

About end time. Again it is a matter of how one interprets th scriptures. We understand clearly Baha'u'llah was prophesied in the Bible as well as Muhammad. Our interpretation comes from Baha'u'llah the Spirit of Truth Christ foretold Who would guide men into all truth.
 
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