Shad
Veteran Member
I was just making the point that another 1.7 billion people also accept Christ because the Quran teaches He is from God.
They do not share the same view of Christ so the point is moot.
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I was just making the point that another 1.7 billion people also accept Christ because the Quran teaches He is from God.
It's almost deceptive here. Qu'ran as a whole book is never verifiable. The parchment is just a small part of the whole book. So no one can tell if today's Qu'ran is the same book published 1500 years ago.
God's messages, if anything critical to humans, must be conveyed consistently throughout history.
OT Bible:
We have a whole library (Dead Sea Scrolls) with complete books for us to draw the conclusion that theologically the same contents remain in today's Bible.
We have an authorized earthly entity to maintain its consistency strictly to prevent any adding or removing of contents. The canonization of OT was serious done and maintained.
NT Bible:
We have 2 whole book artifacts (NIV stream of Bibles), and another independent source (KJV stream) for us to cross reference to draw the conclusion that the same theology is conveying today as it was some 2000 years ago.
We have another authorized earthly entity to maintain its consistency strictly to prevent any adding and removing or contents. The canonization of NT was serious done and maintained.
It's the work of a serious God for a serious message (of salvation) to convey.
They do not share the same view of Christ so the point is moot.
The Quran accepts Christ as a Prophet which the Bible also states and is in total agreeance with.
The Bible is the authority on Christ not Christians. What Christ said about Himself is what really matters not the views of Christians.
Prophet, Christ as Deuteronomy 18:18 Matthew 21:11 Matthew 21:46 Mark 6:15 Luke 7:16 Luke 13:33 Luke 24:19 John 4:19 John 6:14 John 7:40 John 9:17 Acts 3:22
To me all religious ideas are wrong, because they are only ideas, there is no proof, the only true proof is from within each one of us, and you cannot make a religion out of that.
Yes I can certainly agree with that.The world needs unity, love and peace and we all need to learn to get along together much better.
We should be talking about our common humanity.
Any religion that teaches that other religions are false is no religion.
un the contrary, all moslims believe other previous prophet who are sent from God.Yeah. That's because even they know he is no savior. His grave is with us to this day. The same cannot be said about the true savior, who will be blessed forever and ever, Amen.
Mohammed taught that the Bible is wrong. He taught that the Apostles are liars and that Christians are liars because they proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ. To follow Mohammed is to forsake Christ.
Do not hear such evil, brother, I pray thee with all my heart.
hi.Hello all,
I'm in the process of looking at different belief systems, and I've tried to summarise why I am beginning to settle on belief in God & specifically Islam.
Getting some challenge from your sharp debating minds would be immensely helpful to highlight any shortcomings in my current thinking.
Context: The Qur’an is a book which is claimed to be from God, written mostly in the first person, and said to have been revealed between 609-632 AD orally via Muhammed. It is claimed that Muhammed had direct interactions with Gabriel throughout the revelation of the Qur’an.
Basic structure:
If the following conditions are true:
Then: There is almost certainly a genuine supernatural nature to the core text of Islam that is available to us today
- Muhammed brought the Qur’an
- The Qur’an has not materially changed since the point of its arrival
- Muhammed genuinely believed that the Qur’an was from God
- The Qur’an, along with its effects on people, are beyond what can realistically be expected from the products of someone with mental illness
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1. Muhammed brought the Qur’an
- There are many thousands of records called ‘Hadith’ that make reference to the Prophet Muhammed & his life, including Qur’anic revelation
- There are some corroborating records in contemporary times from non-Arab sources that mention Muhammed & the Qur’an
- There are no contemporary sources that even suggest Mohammed didn’t exist or didn’t bring the Qur’an
2. The Qur’an has not materially changed since the point of its arrival
- The earliest manuscript is the Birmingham manuscript, held in the University of Birmingham (http://www.birmingham.ac.uk/news/latest/2015/07/quran-manuscript-22-07-15.aspx) – this is carbon dated between 568 AD & 645 AD
- There are other very old manuscripts, e.g. Sana’a manuscript from before 671 AD
- None of the contents of these manuscripts varies in a material way from the modern Qur’an
- The official Islamic story of the Qur’an’s compilation is that it was revealed orally to Muhammed between 609-632 AD. It was then compiled into a book soon after his death, before which it was transmitted orally. The compilation into today’s standard edition took place in ~650 AD.
- Given the nomadic Arab oral tradition, it is very believable that the Qur’an would have remained mostly unchanged in the max. 10-20 year period before it was written down. To illustrate, even today, some nomadic Arabs are able to recite hours of poetry by heart
3. Muhammed genuinely believed that the Qur’an was from God
The potential motivations for Muhammed to recite the Qur’an to his people can be summarised in this tree:
An analysis of the factors mentioned in the above tree is as follows:
4. The Qur’an, along with its effects on people, are beyond what can realistically be expected from the products of someone with mental illness
- Schizophrenic patients or those with schizophrenic traits will often display ‘Knight’s move thinking’ – switching between ideas with little or no connection without warning. Those with schizotypal personality disorder also often exhibit unusual speech structures & unnatural shifts between ideas. On the other hand, the Qur’an is able to deliver coherent stories & makes a clear transition from one idea to the next
- Manic disorder/bipolar disorder is often characterised by hyperexcitable speech & flight of ideas. As explained above, the Qur’an is able to hold an idea/story & explain it, and there is a clear transition from one idea to the next. Furthermore, the tone of the Qur’an is consistent throughout, which indicates an absence of bipolar wild mood swings in the compilation of the Qur’an
- Muhammed claimed to interact directly with Gabriel when receiving Qur’anic revelations, including visual, auditory & physical contact. Schizophrenic hallucinations are usually only auditory, and usually have a negative connotation. In general, hallucinations are nowhere near as well developed as the experiences which Muhammed is claimed to have gone through.
- Epileptic hallucinations are even less likely to cause the combination of visual, auditory & physical contact with a person, especially not on a recurrent basis
- Furthermore, the Arabic Qur’an recitation demonstrates signs of having been written by someone with considerable intelligence. It has a certain rhythm which many find appealing, and a sense of authority which many find makes it easy to believe. These features are not easy to imitate. Most mental illnesses, including epilepsy, are correlated with a lower IQ, which makes it less likely that the Qur’an could have been produced by someone with a mental disorder
We believe we are all one human family and that no race or religion is superior to another and to promote understanding between peoples, races, religions and nations is the most important duty of every human being on this planet.
In what sense do you mean 'superior' here?
We are all equal. Not to condescend or despise other people but to consider all as equals.
What about all religions?
The same. All religionists are human beings so they should be treated with equal respect.
The Bible is the true Word of God. There is no conflict between Christ and Muhammad.
How in the world can both the Bible and the Qur'an be "perfect" when the Qur'an accuses the Gospels of being lies. Christianity teaches that Christ is the Savior of the world, the King of Heaven, God incarnate, that He was crucified, etc. Islam teaches none of those things and accuses Christians of being liars and changing the Gospels. You cannot believe in both the Bible and the Qur'an at the same time, unless you pick and choose.Yes the Quran and the Bible. Anything else falls under interpretation and tradition and is subject to error.
Only the Quran and Bible are free from error including Muhammad and Christ.
The information about Aisha is incorrect. It is based on one Hadith. The recorder could easily have made a typo stating 9 instead of 19 and there are no birth certificates to prove this allegation.
When the United Nations was formed a typo was made calling it the 'untied nations'.
I agree that the followers of both Faiths have made mistakes and committed atrocities. But Christ and Muhammad and the Bible and the Quran are perfect. That people have not obeyed Them is not the fault of either.
Both in the Bible and Quran interpretation of prophecies is forbidden.
Sura 39:69 says that another One will come after Muhammad
And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord (Allah, when He will come to judge among men) and the Book will be placed (open) and the Prophets and the witnesses will be brought forward, and it will be judged between them with truth, and they will not be wronged.
The Bible also speaks of a New Revelation from God
“The new things that are to be received and enjoyed hereafter are: a new name, the believer’s, Rev. 2:17; a new name, the Lord’s, Rev. 3:12; a new song, Rev. 5:9; a new Heaven and a new Earth, Rev. 21:1; the new Jerusalem, Rev. 3:12; 21:2; ‘And He that sitteth on the Throne said, Behold, I make all things new,’ Rev. 21:
Both the Quran and Bible are speaking about Baha'u'llah
Okay, but I'm not talking about religionists, I'm talking about religions. Are all religions equal/deserving of equal respect in your eyes?
Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it so.
How in the world can both the Bible and the Qur'an be "perfect" when the Qur'an accuses the Gospels of being lies. Christianity teaches that Christ is the Savior of the world, the King of Heaven, God incarnate, that He was crucified, etc. Islam teaches none of those things and accuses Christians of being liars and changing the Gospels. You cannot believe in both the Bible and the Qur'an at the same time, unless you pick and choose.
The Bible says nothing about Muhammad or Baha'u'llah. People who claim that are misinterpreting verses by taking them out of their obvious context in the scriptures while also ignoring their theological context. The verses from Revelation you quoted are speaking of the Eschaton - the End of Time and the remaking of Heaven and Earth. None of that has anything to do with some new prophet or messenger coming.
Also, I have a question. Why do I see Baha'is capitalizing the pronouns of Christ, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah? Speaking as a Christian, we only capitalize pronouns when referring to God.