Searching for proof of God/Islam - Tell me why I'm wrong

[Arkannine21]

Hello all,

I'm in the process of looking at different belief systems, and I've tried to summarise why I am beginning to settle on belief in God & specifically Islam.

Getting some challenge from your sharp debating minds would be immensely helpful to highlight any shortcomings in my current thinking.

Context: The Qur’an is a book which is claimed to be from God, written mostly in the first person, and said to have been revealed between 609-632 AD orally via Muhammed. It is claimed that Muhammed had direct interactions with Gabriel throughout the revelation of the Qur’an.

Basic structure:

If the following conditions are true:

1. Muhammed brought the Qur’an
   
2. The Qur’an has not materially changed since the point of its arrival
   
3. Muhammed genuinely believed that the Qur’an was from God
   
4. The Qur’an, along with its effects on people, are beyond what can realistically be expected from the products of someone with mental illness

Then: There is almost certainly a genuine supernatural nature to the core text of Islam that is available to us today



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1. Muhammed brought the Qur’an

• There are many thousands of records called ‘Hadith’ that make reference to the Prophet Muhammed & his life, including Qur’anic revelation
  
• There are some corroborating records in contemporary times from non-Arab sources that mention Muhammed & the Qur’an
  
• There are no contemporary sources that even suggest Mohammed didn’t exist or didn’t bring the Qur’an

2. The Qur’an has not materially changed since the point of its arrival

• The earliest manuscript is the Birmingham manuscript, held in the University of Birmingham (http://www.birmingham.ac.uk/news/latest/2015/07/quran-manuscript-22-07-15.aspx) – this is carbon dated between 568 AD & 645 AD
  
• There are other very old manuscripts, e.g. Sana’a manuscript from before 671 AD
  
• None of the contents of these manuscripts varies in a material way from the modern Qur’an
  
• The official Islamic story of the Qur’an’s compilation is that it was revealed orally to Muhammed between 609-632 AD. It was then compiled into a book soon after his death, before which it was transmitted orally. The compilation into today’s standard edition took place in ~650 AD.
  
• Given the nomadic Arab oral tradition, it is very believable that the Qur’an would have remained mostly unchanged in the max. 10-20 year period before it was written down. To illustrate, even today, some nomadic Arabs are able to recite hours of poetry by heart

3. Muhammed genuinely believed that the Qur’an was from God
The potential motivations for Muhammed to recite the Qur’an to his people can be summarised in this tree:

An analysis of the factors mentioned in the above tree is as follows:

4. The Qur’an, along with its effects on people, are beyond what can realistically be expected from the products of someone with mental illness

• Schizophrenic patients or those with schizophrenic traits will often display ‘Knight’s move thinking’ – switching between ideas with little or no connection without warning. Those with schizotypal personality disorder also often exhibit unusual speech structures & unnatural shifts between ideas. On the other hand, the Qur’an is able to deliver coherent stories & makes a clear transition from one idea to the next
  
• Manic disorder/bipolar disorder is often characterised by hyperexcitable speech & flight of ideas. As explained above, the Qur’an is able to hold an idea/story & explain it, and there is a clear transition from one idea to the next. Furthermore, the tone of the Qur’an is consistent throughout, which indicates an absence of bipolar wild mood swings in the compilation of the Qur’an
  
• Muhammed claimed to interact directly with Gabriel when receiving Qur’anic revelations, including visual, auditory & physical contact. Schizophrenic hallucinations are usually only auditory, and usually have a negative connotation. In general, hallucinations are nowhere near as well developed as the experiences which Muhammed is claimed to have gone through.
  
• Epileptic hallucinations are even less likely to cause the combination of visual, auditory & physical contact with a person, especially not on a recurrent basis
  
• Furthermore, the Arabic Qur’an recitation demonstrates signs of having been written by someone with considerable intelligence. It has a certain rhythm which many find appealing, and a sense of authority which many find makes it easy to believe. These features are not easy to imitate. Most mental illnesses, including epilepsy, are correlated with a lower IQ, which makes it less likely that the Qur’an could have been produced by someone with a mental disorder

 

[McBell]

Um...
What do you want to debate?

 

[Arkannine21]

Um...
What do you want to debate?

Sorry that the post is so long. Essentially, I've put forward my thoughts on why religion, specifically Islam, has a supernatural origin to it.

I'm looking for you to debate & poke holes in what I've written to show any faults in my thinking. I want to find out what the weaknesses in my argument are.

In summary, I want you to tell me why I'm wrong.

 

[jeager106]

I'm sorry it was so long also.
If you cannot read, investigate, and learn, about any religion you are interested
in then I can't recommend a religion for you.
That would be like explaining why I like certain foods you never tried.
There are clergy you can speak with, libraries full of information, internet sites
that can present information and on, and on, and on.
Best wishes.
You could lurk here and examine questions and posts by members.
You can even engage in dialog with others on topics that interest you.
Perhaps start with this one since you are interested in Islam.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

All about Islam, the religion of peace.
God speed curious one.

 

[psychoslice]

Tell any belief system such as religion why they are wrong, and they will never agree with you, well most wont, they all believe their right, maybe you are one of those ?.

 

[Arkannine21]

I'm looking for someone to challenge the content of what I've posted.

Have I posted in the right section?

 

[HonestJoe]

If the following conditions are true:

1. Muhammed brought the Qur’an
2. The Qur’an has not materially changed since the point of its arrival
3. Muhammed genuinely believed that the Qur’an was from God
4. The Qur’an, along with its effects on people, are beyond what can realistically be expected from the products of someone with mental illness

Then: There was almost certainly a genuine supernatural nature to the core text of Islam

I don’t think the first three points are all that significant in determining a “supernatural” element to the Quran. The lead through to your conclusion but can be explained in entirely mundane ways which in themselves makes them irrelevant in establishing anything “supernatural”.

I’m not entirely clear what you mean by the fourth point. The details suggest it’s just about establishing that Muhammed wasn’t mentally ill. Clinically I’m not convinced you’ve proven that case definitively (nor do I think you could) but if that is the case, I don’t see how these four points alone point to a definitive and unquestioned conclusion that there must be some kind of “supernatural” element involved. You’re (trying to) establish one thing that can’t be the cause of the phenomena but that doesn’t mean you can automatically conclude another single cause.

Even if you had established some kind of definitive “supernatural” element, I think the way you’ve termed it shows that you know that’s a long way from proving the very specific “supernatural” statements the Quran and wider Muslim faith makes. I’d suggest your conclusion actually supports the very opposite of following the singular and unshifting teachings of Mohammed, effectively listening to only a single witness but rather independently investigating this proposed “supernatural” element you think it points to.

 

[Arkannine21]

I don’t think the first three points are all that significant in determining a “supernatural” element to the Quran. The lead through to your conclusion but in themselves can be explained in entirely mundane ways which in themselves makes them irrelevant in establishing anything “supernatural”.

I’m not entirely clear what you mean by the fourth point. The details suggest it’s just about establishing that Muhammed wasn’t mentally ill. Clinically I’m not convinced you’ve proven that case definitively (nor do I think you could) but if that is the case, I don’t see how these four points alone point to a definitive and unquestioned conclusion that there must be some kind of “supernatural” element involved. You’re (trying to) establish one thing that can’t be the cause of the phenomena but that doesn’t mean you can automatically conclude another single cause.

Even if you had established some kind of definitive “supernatural” element, I think the way you’ve termed it shows that you know that’s a long way from proving the very specific “supernatural” statements the Quran and wider Muslim faith makes. I’d suggest your conclusion actually supports the very opposite of following the singular and unshifting teachings of Mohammed, effectively listening to only a single witness but rather independently investigating this proposed “supernatural” element you think it points to.

Thanks for the response.

1. The intended logic behind the 4th point is as follows:

If Muhammed genuinely believed he was meeting the angel Gabriel and receiving Qur'anic revelation, then either a) he was mad or b) this actually happened. If he wasn't mad, then it actually happened.

In your post, I think you suggested that there are other possible reasons why Muhammed might have genuinely believed he was receiving revelation. If so, please could you expand?

2. I understand your point about the first 2 points not directly contributing to the conclusion of a supernatural element to the Quran. The reason for including the first 2 points is that, even if Muhammed received revelations from God, that wouldn't be of any benefit to us if we no longer had the Qur'an that was revealed to him. Also, it would call into question the whole historical veracity of what we know about that time. I've rephrased the conclusion accordingly.

3. The conclusion is only that there was a supernatural element to the Quran's appearance. The Qur'an says of itself that it's from God, so that step is just about having faith that it doesn't lie about where it came from.

 

[Tumah]

How does your argument not prove that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and the book of Mormon is from God?

 

[Arkannine21]

How does your argument not prove that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and the book of Mormon is from God?

I'll need to read up on Mormonism - at work right now, will look at this in the evening/tomorrow.

 

[LuisDantas]

Sorry that the post is so long. Essentially, I've put forward my thoughts on why religion, specifically Islam, has a supernatural origin to it.

I'm looking for you to debate & poke holes in what I've written to show any faults in my thinking. I want to find out what the weaknesses in my argument are.

In summary, I want you to tell me why I'm wrong.

The excepcionality of the Qur'an is not self-evident, nor is its ability to fulfill the rather ambitious expectations that it demands for itself.

Except for the supernatural aspects (Gabriel, authorship from God) the origin of the Qur'an is unquestionable enough.

The premise (which is contained in the Qur'an itself) that it is religiously valid to expand the role of a deity to the exalted levels that Islaam expects is rather questionable, though.

In practice, such strong theocentrism it has been seen to very consistently encourage a dangerous form of tribal thinking that involves high passions and ephemerous criteria.

A big part of it is that there is a permanent tension between religion as properly practiced (which is one of the most personal activities that anyone can have) and the extreme monotheism and theocentrism of the Qur'an.

For the Qur'an to be correct, basically everyone must feel afinity to its message once it is clearly understood. That is a pretty tall order, and IMO not a very realistic or very reasonable one. In practice it quickly degenerates into pragmatic, often well-meaning pretenses and lip service to the creed - because humans are a social breed and we need some assurance that the people around us will understand and support us even if that means making unreasonable concessions about what we believe in. True believers can be very difficult to talk with.

After a short while, belief becomes effectively hidden for most people, because it is in practice necessary to present a superficial veneer of agreement and mutual commitment that can't afford to discuss the actual beliefs as they vary in reality.

In short, I think the main weakness of Islaam as proposed by the Qur'an is that it does not attempt to truly be a religion, but rather a belief. An emphatically theocentric and monotheistic belief that confuses tribal, quasi-nationalistic thinking with religious practice, and tends to encourage magical thinking over reason and true mysticism.

 

[HonestJoe]

In your post, I think you suggested that there are other possible reasons why Muhammed might have genuinely believed he was receiving revelation. If so, please could you expand?

Well I question your reasoning for declaring that he can’t have been suffering some form of mental illness – I don’t think you can make such a definitive assertion on the basis of the limited evidence, especially as (presumably) a layman as far as mental health is concerned.

If he had experienced something, it’s perfectly possible that it wasn’t what he believe it to be – don’t underestimate the human mind’s ability to go to extreme lengths to rationalise our experiences and observations. It could have been a natural event he misinterpreted or intervention by some outside party that wouldn’t be identified as “supernatural” (aliens, time-travellers etc. – no more believable, just not “supernatural”). Again, my point is that you can’t make definitive declarations on this.

3. The conclusion is only that there was a supernatural element to the Quran's appearance. The Qur'an says of itself that it's from God, so that step is just about having faith that it doesn't lie about where it came from.

Which is why your conclusions strikes me as a reason to not follow Islam but to investigate this “supernatural” element independently of the Islamic beliefs build upon it.

After all, as someone else pointed out, there are various other religious beliefs and incidents that would meet similar criteria for yours. Maybe there is something out there but the only thing we know from these religious beliefs is that they’re not in any kind of agreement as to what it might be. If one person tells you it’s sunny but another tells you it’s raining, you don’t randomly pick one to trust. You look out of the window to see for yourself.

 

[First Baseman]

If you will take the time to study up on Jesus Christ you will find a much more reliable and loving savior than Mohammed ever dreamed of being.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If you will take the time to study up on Jesus Christ you will find a much more reliable and loving savior than Mohammed ever dreamed of being.

To be fair, Mohammad isn't viewed as a savior in Islam.

 

[Sleeppy]

1) Conditions are insufficient.


2) What is supernatural? Why is something supernatural rather than simply natural?

 

[First Baseman]

To be fair, Mohammad isn't viewed as a savior in Islam.

Yeah. That's because even they know he is no savior. His grave is with us to this day. The same cannot be said about the true savior, who will be blessed forever and ever, Amen.

Mohammed taught that the Bible is wrong. He taught that the Apostles are liars and that Christians are liars because they proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ. To follow Mohammed is to forsake Christ.

Do not hear such evil, brother, I pray thee with all my heart.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yeah. That's because even they know he is no savior. His grave is with us to this day. The same cannot be said about the true savior, who will be blessed forever and ever, Amen.

Mohammed taught that the Bible is wrong. He taught that the Apostles are liars and that Christians are liars because they proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ. To follow Mohammed is to forsake Christ.

Do not hear such evil, brother, I pray thee with all my heart.

Mohammad wasn't meant to be a savior in the first place. Also, you can stop now. You're being quite rude.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'm looking for someone to challenge the content of what I've posted.

Have I posted in the right section?

It depends what you are thinking of accepting.

I accept Muhammad as the Prophet of God and the Quran as the Word of God and am so convinced of its truth that I would give my life for it.

BUT that's all. I do not accept the zillion false interpretations of the Quran by either Muslim scholars or Mullas or non Muslim western experts.

I have access to the true authoritative interpretation of the Quran and that is sufficient for me.

I wouldn't be accepting that Muhammad is the last Prophet though as that's not what the Quran says. It is a misinterpretation, a very bad misinterpretation of the Quran.

 

[Tumah]

Yeah. That's because even they know he is no savior. His grave is with us to this day. The same cannot be said about the true savior, who will be blessed forever and ever, Amen.

Mohammed taught that the Bible is wrong. He taught that the Apostles are liars and that Christians are liars because they proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ. To follow Mohammed is to forsake Christ.

Do not hear such evil, brother, I pray thee with all my heart.

And of course what you "know" about Muhammad, Jews "know" about Jesus. So its probably best not to go running off about it on threads not dedicated to this.

 

[David1967]

And of course what you "know" about Muhammad, Jews "know" about Jesus. So its probably best not to go running off about it on threads not dedicated to this.

Kinda like the false assumptions of Jews being arrogant.