Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
That should be a clue that his body was not there.
This is also one version of 4, which have contradictory details in them.
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Second Coming
- Thread starter Jimmy
- Start date
This is also one version of 4, which have contradictory details in them.
Feedmysheep
Member
That's not exactly how I interpret this admittedly unusual passage.
I think you don't like to get into debates.
If you however want my view of this, say so. And I'll present what I think was going on there.
What contradictory details do you mean specifically?
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
Your response reminded me of what I previously wrote on similar topics in other threads.
So I'd like to repost what I wrote because I think my experiences as a former Christian validate your statement.
As I explained in my previous posts (such as this one), I diligently sought to connect with the biblical God for forty years, but I never found him. I learned the hard way as a Christian that there is no personal relationship with him or Jesus. In truth, I felt nothing except hopelessness and despair during the four decades that I truly believed in them. I often heard other Christians profess to feel God's presence in their lives and claim to have a personal relationship with him, but I experienced nothing of the sort. After a while, I began to assume that they were simply acting as if they felt God's presence in the same way that I did and that they were playing church in the hope that they would feel it one day. It was one of those "fake it 'til you make it" types of scenarios. I felt, and still suspect, that other Christians faked their emotions during church services and prayer gatherings. And, to validate my suspicion, my husband, a devout Christian, has admitted to me that his emotions were manipulated during church services, but he misconstrued it as feeling God's presence. He said that church services are designed to generate strong emotions from the congregation and that this is accomplished through uplifting praise music as well as preaching and prayer. I never sensed "God's presence" in church or during moments of struggle, despair, or happiness. Now I know that whenever I felt elated in church, it was only because the preaching and singing had a temporary effect on my emotions. Now I know why these emotions were so fleeting.
One of the key reasons I deconverted from Christianity was because I studied the Bible without the rose-colored glasses of my Christian indoctrination. I quickly learned that the Bible, particularly the stories about Jesus, was not as credible as I had previously believed. It was, however, difficult at first for me to renounce my belief in God, Jesus, and the Bible, but it was without a doubt one of the best decisions I've ever made. I know that other former Christians, like me, are well-versed in the Bible. We read it, studied it, mediated on it, and prayed for spiritual guidance when we were Christians. However, we didn't forget what we had learned when we renounced our Christian faith. We retained that knowledge and are now able to use it to challenge the credibility of the Bible. During the thirty years I was a devout Christian, I believed that reading and studying the Bible every day would strengthen my faith in God and Jesus, but the opposite happened because I essentially studied my way out of believing in God, Jesus, and the Bible. Despite how difficult it was for me to renounce my Christian faith, I'm glad I persevered through that spiritual journey since it has significantly changed my life. I finally have inner peace, which is something I never felt during the forty years I genuinely believed in the biblical God. As I previously shared, I recognized that my faith in God (and Jesus) was nothing more than an emotional crutch. I finally understood that if I was ever going to truly break free and heal emotionally, I needed to let go of this detrimental crutch that was ruining my life. I had to let go of it. Looking back on my life as a Christian, I understand now that Christianity was a prison for me. However, it took me a long time to realize this and understand that the door of my prison cell was always open, and I could leave whenever I wanted.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
The nonbelievers in the bodily resurrection of Christ see it as a low-probability event (after all who among us has seen the bodily resurrection of anybody?)and they feel they need better evidence than is provided in the Gospels to establish this. They are not even consistent with each other sometimes. They are stories told by non-eyewitnesses after 40 years. I have to admit the evidence is not that good. But I don't need to establish the bodily resurrection of Christ. The resurrection for Baha'is is the believers coming to spiritual life because they realized that Christ's spirit lives on. Abdu'l-Baha says: "The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body." Shoghi Effendi says: "We do not believe that there was a bodily resurrection after the Crucifixion of Christ, but that there was a time after His Ascension when His disciples perceived spiritually His true greatness and realize He was eternal in being." So I'm actually sympathetic to those who don't believe.
I don't usually argue with people, and I started to, but I regret I did so, but I'll only say what I said in the previous paragraph now. You never know if the bodily resurrection happened for sure, but I do believe that the resurrection of Christ had a spiritual meaning.
Feedmysheep
Member
So you see this as a dichotomy.
If Jesus rose physically from the dead then there is no spiritual meaning.
And if there is spiritual meaning to His rising from the dead then there is no actual rising of Christ.
You say we have to choose between ONE side of the matter or the OTHER.
Both cannot be true for you because the two beliefs are mutually exclusive.
Is that an acccurate description of your belief?
As for debates. Yes sometimes I do debate.
Sometimes I simply explain what is a problem to someone else is not a problem to me.
I totally agree with you about a deeper spiritual / moral meaning of Jesus rising from the dead - 100% I agree.
And I would agree that that spiritual meaning is too often neglected by Christians. I too sometimes am in neglect of this great truth.
Having said that, that is no reason for me to disbelieve the account and definite proclamation that He is risen indeed.
The strange thing is that when the NT epistles dive into, elaborate upon, expound on, and testify this deeper significance you don't want to
take it.
So we get this "Now Jesus we all like. But this Paul fellow, he messed everything up."
When Paul, Peter, John, James, and Jude give their pioneering experience and teaching showing us the WAY to
get into the deep significance of His availability, you don't want to take it.
Very strange.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Jesus did not say that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned into joy because I am going to rise from the dead.
For the sake of argument, let's say that Jesus did rise from the dead. I want to know why that would be such a big deal. Why would it matter?
Please tell me why it matters in your own words. Don't post a bunch of verses.
Anyone who believe in Jesus is a believer. It is totally unnecessary to believe that Jesus rose from the dead. Not all Christians believe that.
Jesus is not the Son of Man who will come in the clouds.
Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?
Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man...
www.religiousforums.com
Son of man coming with the clouds means that the return of Christ will appear in the form of another human being. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.
In other words, the judgment of most people was clouded when Christ returned and it is still clouded for most people.
One thing that clouds the judgment of Christians is their desire for the same Jesus to return to earth.
I do not call Jesus Lord because Jesus is not the Lord. Yet another false teaching from Paul.
Romans 10:9-10 New Century Version (NCV) If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and if you believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, you will be saved. We believe with our hearts, and so we are made right with God. And we declare with our mouths that we believe, and so we are saved.
Saved from what? There is nothing to be saved from unless one believes in original sin.
Jesus knew nothing of any original sin and never spoke of it. That a Christian doctrine that was developed in order to say that Jesus had to die to save us from original sin. Jesus died so that we could have eternal life, not to save us from an original sin that never even happened.
Jesus gave His life and His teachings so we could have eternal life
Nobody has to believe in the resurrection in order to attain eternal life.
Whether we gain eternal life has nothing to do with believing that Jesus rose from the dead. Believing in Jesus is all that is necessary.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
John 20
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Who is to say that the disciples did not see the spiritual body of Jesus after He died?
The usual verse that Christians will cite to say His body was physical is this one:
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
I am not saying that Jesus was a spirit, I am saying that he had a spiritual body, as we will all have after we die.
Jesus could perform miracles so there is no reason why He could not have made His spiritual body feel and look physical.
1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation
The Resurrection Body
35 But someone may ask, “How will the dead be raised? What kind of bodies will they have?”
40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. 41 The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory.
42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!
No, we will not die at all since we are souls, not bodies. The physical body is just a vehicle that the soul uses to express itself while we are living on earth. The soul is eternal so it cannot die. When our physical bodies die we will get a new form, a spiritual body.
“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.”
(Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157)
“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.”
(Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194)
Luke 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
A physical body is not carried up to heaven in defiance of gravity. Only a spiritual body can be carried up to heaven.
When Paul said "These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever" he meant that our physical bodies cannot exist in heaven. Why then would the physical body of Jesus ascend to heaven?
Jimmy
King Phenomenon
One important thing you’re forgetting about the Bible is that it’s a story meant to inspire and reveal the hidden truths about life and existence as we know it. You can pick it apart all you want but at the end of the day that’s what the book is.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, that is what I believe the Bible reveals.
When Christians get all caught up in the details that they believe support their dogma, they lose sight of the big picture.
Jimmy
King Phenomenon
You have to remember that everybody has their own big picture, but ultimately at the end of the day there is truly only one big picture.
Feedmysheep
Member
Yes He did. Their sorrow will be turned into joy just as a woman sorrowful in her birth pangs is joyed at the delivery of her child.
This brings me to an important point. The resurrection of Christ was not just a man coming back to life as He was before.
It is taught as the birth of a new humanity of which Jesus is the FIRST - BORN. He is called "the Firstborn of the dead" (Rev. 1:5)
In His resurrection He initiated a whole new divinized humanity of which He is the FIRST, the Eldest Brother.
In His incarnation He brought God into man. In His resurrection He brought man (not just A man) into divinity.
He returns to the eternal throne of God with the humanity that He put on. He will never for eternity put this uplifted and sanctified humanity aside.
Here Jesus drew the parallel between His rising with the BIRTH of a new man into the world.
Truly, truly, I say to you that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned into joy.
A woman, when she gives birth, has sorrow because her hour has come; but when she brings forth the little child, she no longer remembers the affliction because of the joy that a man has been born into the world.
Therefore you also now have sorrow; but I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and no one takes your joy away from you. (John 16:20-22)
Christ's resurrection was more than a dead man coming back to life though it includes that.
His resurrection ushers in a whole new post adamic humanity of the bringing of human nature into eternal divinity.
When He went back to the eternal throne He went back as the FIRSTBORN Son of God.
Therefore He added to His status as the only begotten Son (John 3:16) an additional status - the Firstborn of the dead (Rev. 1:5)
There is now a MAN on the glorious eternal throne of all the universe. And He is operating in the saved to
constitute them His many brothers. In His second coming it says He is the Firstborn "leading many sons into glory."
Hebrew 1:6 - And when He brings again the Firstborn into the inhabited earth, He says, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”
Hebrews 2:10,11 - For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of One, for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brothers,
This is brief. More needs to be said.
If you wish to converse with me you have to get use to me sourcing my beliefs with the words of Scripture.
The purpose of His redeeming death is that in resurrection He might dispense His life into those redeemed.
Think of a cup of tea. It consists of hot water and an inserted tea bag. As the flavor of the tea expands out into
the water the water is, let's say teaified. The water with some stirring becomes permeated with the tea.
The water we say becomes tea.
Christ is like the divine and heavenly teabag placed into our humanity when we receive Him.
Through trials, difficulties, oppositions, challenges His flavor gradually spreads out into all the areas of a man or woman's soul.
Christ permeates the soul and eventually even the body with His life and nature - man is "Christified" if you will.
Now you must see this in the Scripture. We He returns He will be marvelled at IN those into whom He has spread and permeated
His life. Right here -
Second Thess. 1:10 - When He comes to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all those who have believed (because our testimony to you was believed) in that day.
He will be not only marveled at from His supernatural appearance from the sky. He will be marveled at WITHIN those who have
allowed His life and nature to spread throughout their personalities. They are rewarded with a glorification in their visible transfigured bodies.
Your concept of salvation as you read from Baha'i teaching short changes the entire humanity of man.
Christ's extensive salvation covers the spirit which He regenerates, the soul which He transforms, and the body which He transfigures.
Therefore the NT says we are to be saved COMPLETE and WHOLLY.
First Thess. 5:23 - And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Not only has Christ a salvation for the spirit of man plus the soul of man plus the body of man - complete.
But even the environment of decay, vanity, and futility is transformed eventually into the same glorious freedom of the sons of God.
I'll not bold it in hope that you will not ignore it. See how creation itself is to be delivered in Christ's return.
Rom 8:17 And if children, heirs also; on the one hand, heirs of God; on the other, joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him that we may also be glorified with Him.
Rm 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the coming glory to be revealed upon us.
Rm 8:19 For the anxious watching of the creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God.
Rm 8:20 For the creation was made subject to vanity, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it,
Rm 8:21 In hope that the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rm 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails in pain together until now.
Rm 8:23 And not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan in ourselves, eagerly awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body.
Rm 8:24 For we were saved in hope. But a hope that is seen is not hope, for who hopes for what he sees?
Rm 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly await it through endurance.
If you do not believe Christ is alive you do not believe in Christ period.
You may agree with this or that moral teaching. You may agree that the "golden rule" is a great idea.
But this is not receiving Christ as Lord.
But to call upon Him "O Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus" even if you don't know lots of doctrines you'll find He is RICH
to all who call upon Him. And you would not call UNLESS you believed He lives and is available to be contacted.
So the apostolic teaching is that whoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.
But God wants men and women not only to be saved but also to come into the full knowlege of the truth.
This is good and acceptable in the sight of our Savior God,
Who desires all men to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God and one Mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to be borne in its own times. (1 Tim. 2:3-6)
Maybe I will respond latter.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Jesus did not say that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned into joy because I am going to rise from the dead.
You said that.
Jesus did not draw the parallel between His rising with the BIRTH of a new man into the world.
Rather, you cited some verses and claim Jesus was drawing a parallel.
Fine, but don't expect me to read them and respond to them, especially if they are verses from Paul that I believe are false.
The purpose of His redeeming death is that He might dispense His life into those redeemed.
Christ is like the divine and heavenly teabag placed into our humanity when we receive Him.
No resurrection was ever necessary.
What Baha’is believe regarding the purpose of His redeeming death is explained below.
Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?
Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.
The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality.
All sin comes from the demands of nature, and these demands, which arise from the physical qualities, are not sins with respect to the animals, while for man they are sin. The animal is the source of imperfections, such as anger, sensuality, jealousy, avarice, cruelty, pride: all these defects are found in animals but do not constitute sins. But in man they are sins.
Adam is the cause of man’s physical life; but the Reality of Christ—that is to say, the Word of God—is the cause of spiritual life. It is “a quickening spirit,” meaning that all the imperfections which come from the requirements of the physical life of man are transformed into human perfections by the teachings and education of that spirit. Therefore, Christ was a quickening spirit, and the cause of life in all mankind.
Adam was the cause of physical life, and as the physical world of man is the world of imperfections, and imperfections are the equivalent of death, Paul compared the physical imperfections to death.
Of course I believe that Christ is alive! Christ is alive in heaven in a spiritual body, at the Right Hand of God.
Life does not end when the physical body dies, since the physical body is not what gives us life. It is the soul that animates the physical body and gives us life.
The soul of Christ did not die when His physical body died. His physical body was simply transformed into a spiritual body and then His soul became associated with His spiritual body.
1 Corinthians 15: 51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!
“The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing.…
But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets.
But the mind is the power of the human spirit. Spirit is the lamp; mind is the light which shines from the lamp. Spirit is the tree, and the mind is the fruit. Mind is the perfection of the spirit and is its essential quality, as the sun’s rays are the essential necessity of the sun.”
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
No, I believe both can be true.
I like your humility.
There are different opinions among Baha'is. I don't believe that Paul messed up everything. I do think he was not right about everything. Sometimes he was inspired by the Holy Spirit in my opinion, but not always.
Feedmysheep
Member
Can you show me your two or three MAJOR instances where the Apostle Paul taught something contradictory to what Christ taught?
Don't save your biggest examples for latter. Give me your strongest examples (two or three) up front.
The Apostle Paul contradicted the Lord Jesus Christ . . .
1.) here ____________________
2.) here ____________________
3.) here ____________________
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
James D Tabor, Contributor
Professor of Religious Studies at University of North Carolina at Charlotte, Writer, Researcher, Christian Origins, Ancient Judaism
Christianity Before Paul
The fundamental doctrinal tenets of Christianity can be traced back to Paul — not to Jesus. In contrast, the original Christianity before Paul is somewhat difficult to find in the New Testament.
Over the span of my academic career I have taught a course simply titled “Paul,” and I half-jokingly tell the students the first day that Paul is one of those people for whom a last name is not necessary, much like Elvis or Madonna. I have begun the course with what I intend to be a startling assertion: Paul is the most influential person in human history. I have in mind, of course, the West in particular. The foundations of Western civilization, from our assumptions about reality to our societal and personal ethics, rest upon the heavenly visions and apparitions of a single man — the apostle Paul. We are all cultural heirs of Paul. In contrast, Jesus as a historical figure — that is, a Jewish Messiah of his own time who sought to see the kingdom of God established on earth — has been largely lost to our culture. In this holiday season, it is worth taking pause and thinking a bit about the historical origins of the Christian faith, and how much it depends on St. Paul.
Visit any church service, Roman Catholic, Protestant or Greek Orthodox, and it is the apostle Paul and his ideas that are central — in the hymns, the creeds, the sermons, the invocation and benediction, and of course, the rituals of baptism and the Holy Communion or Mass. Whether birth, baptism, confirmation, marriage or death, it is predominantly Paul who is evoked to express meaning and significance.
The fundamental doctrinal tenets of Christianity, namely that Christ is God “born in the flesh,” that his sacrificial death atones for the sins of humankind, and that his resurrection from the dead guarantees eternal life to all who believe, can be traced back to Paul — not to Jesus. Indeed, the spiritual union with Christ through baptism, as well as the “communion” with his body and blood through the sacred meal of bread and wine, also trace back to Paul. This is the Christianity most familiar to us, with the creeds and confessions that separated it from Judaism and put it on the road to becoming a new religion.
Paul never met Jesus. The chronological facts are undisputed. Jesus of Nazareth was crucified during the reign of Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor or prefect of Judea, in April, A.D. 30. As best we can determine it was not until seven years after Jesus’ death, around A.D. 37, that Paul reports his initial apparition of “Christ,” whom he identifies with Jesus raised from the dead. He asks his followers when challenged for his credentials: “Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?” equating his visionary experience with that of those who had known Jesus face-to-face (1 Corinthians 9:1). Paul’s claim to have “seen” Jesus, as well as the teachings he says he received directly from Jesus, came after Jesus’ lifetime, and can be categorized as subjective clairvoyant experiences (Galatians 1:12, 18; 2:1; 2 Corinthians 12:1-10). These “revelations” were not a one-time experience of “conversion,” but a phenomenon that continued over the course of Paul’s life. Paul confesses that he does not comprehend the nature of these ecstatic spiritual experiences, whether they were “in the body, or out of the body” but he believed that the voice he heard, the figure he saw and the messages he received were encounters with the heavenly Christ (2 Corinthians 12:2-3).
It was a full decade after Jesus’ death that Paul first met Peter in Jerusalem (whom he calls Cephas, his Aramaic name), and had a brief audience with James, the brother of Jesus, and leader of the Jesus movement (Galatians 1:18-23). Paul subsequently operated independently of the original apostles, preaching and teaching what he calls his “Gospel,” in Asia Minor for another 10 years before making a return trip to Jerusalem around A.D. 50. It was only then, 20 years after Jesus’ death, that he encountered James and Peter again in Jerusalem and met for the first time the rest of the original apostles of Jesus (Galatians 2:1). This rather extraordinary chronological gap is a surprise to many. It is one of the key factors in understanding Paul and his message.
What this means is that we must imagine a “Christianity before Paul” that existed independently of his influence or ideas for more than 20 years, as well as a Christianity preached by Paul, which developed independently of Jesus’ original apostles and followers.
I have spent my 30-year career as a scholar of Christian Origins investigating the silence between two back-to-back statements of the Apostles’ Creed, namely that Jesus was: “Conceived by the Holy Ghost, Born of the Virgin Mary,” and that he “Was crucified, dead and buried, and on the third day He rose again from the dead.”
Is it not striking that this oldest and most foundational Christian creed jumps from Jesus’ birth to his death and resurrection, entirely skipping over his life?
How did it happen that the way Jesus came into the world, and how he left — Christmas and Easter — came to define Christianity itself? Here Catholics, mainstream Protestants and evangelicals all agree. To be a Christian is to believe in the virgin birth and resurrection of Christ, and thus to participate in the salvation Christ brought to the world as God-in-the-flesh.
In contrast, the original Christianity before Paul is somewhat difficult to find in the New Testament, since Paul’s 13 letters predominate and Paul heavily influences even our four Gospels. Fortunately, in the letter of James, attributed to the brother of Jesus, as well as in a collection of the sayings of Jesus now embedded in the Gospel of Luke (the source scholars call Q), we can still get a glimpse of the original teachings of Jesus.
What we get in the letter of James is the most direct possible link to the Jewish teachings of Jesus himself. James is quite sure that the “Judge” is standing at the door, and that the kingdom of God has drawn very near (James 5:7). He warns the rich and those who oppress the weak that very soon the judgment of God will strike. James seems to be directly echoing and affirming what he had learned and passed on from his brother Jesus. It is important to note that James did not directly quote Jesus or attribute any of these teachings to Jesus by name — even though they are teaching of Jesus.
For James the Christian message is not the person of Jesus but the message that Jesus proclaimed. James’ letter lacks a single teaching that is characteristic of the apostle Paul and it draws nothing at all from the Gospel narratives. What we have preserved in this precious document is a reflection of the original apocalyptic proclamation of Jesus: the “Gospel of the kingdom of God” with its political and social implications.
Christianity Before Paul
The fundamental doctrinal tenets of Christianity can be traced back to Paul -- not to Jesus. In contrast, the original Christianity before Paul is somewhat difficult to find in the New Testament.
Feedmysheep
Member
" In contrast, the original Christianity before Paul is somewhat difficult to find in the New Testament. "
So since it is so difficult to know what Jesus taught one can always hide behind this excuse and evade the
request to show the contradictions between the Apostle Paul and Christ.
Ie. "Well, you see no one really knows what Jesus taught. So contradictions can't be examined."
This is a catch 22 evasion and more of "Jesus was OK (probably). But Paul messed it all up with contradictions, embellishments, and his own ideas. Of course we cannot know that there ARE contradictions because it is too difficult to know the original message from Jesus."
F for sending me off to argue with someone else.
Both of you should be more honest and admit you don't know how to compare Christ's original message with Paul's epistles.
You just don't like Paul's epistles.
So since it is so difficult to know what Jesus taught one can always hide behind this excuse and evade the
request to show the contradictions between the Apostle Paul and Christ.
Ie. "Well, you see no one really knows what Jesus taught. So contradictions can't be examined."
This is a catch 22 evasion and more of "Jesus was OK (probably). But Paul messed it all up with contradictions, embellishments, and his own ideas. Of course we cannot know that there ARE contradictions because it is too difficult to know the original message from Jesus."
F for sending me off to argue with someone else.
Both of you should be more honest and admit you don't know how to compare Christ's original message with Paul's epistles.
You just don't like Paul's epistles.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
There is no reason for us to do the work that many have done already.
"Paul vs Jesus - A list of contradictory statements" By Edgar Jones
source: http://www.truthseekers.co.za/content/view/84/59/ Paul vs Jesus - A list of contradictory statements By Edgar Jones John.5 [24] Trul...
false-apostle-paul-archive.blogspot.com
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Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
I don't intend to debate this. In a couple of instances what Paul says goes against what Baha'i says. In another instance, it is apparent to me that Paul expected that in his lifetime Jesus would return. You can contend that if you want, but I won't enter into a quagmire of debate on that, because I know I won't affect your opinion. I'm sure you know Paul well, and have your reasons for believing that Paul did not really say that. I feel sure I don't know Paul as well as you do, I'm sure. I haven't paid a lot of attention to the letters after the Gospels, because I feel certain these are opinions of fallible people, while in the Gospels there is Christ, which is not a fallible person, though we are not sure what exactly he said because what he said was written down decades later. @Trailblazer is debating this, which is her style here, but it isn't mine. She knows she won't change your mind, but is putting on the record what she thinks on this to get some people who read her opinion to think about this. At least that's how I understand her rationale. I'm all the time not understanding her rationale. I just have a different way of dealing with stuff like this, I'm not going to try to tell @Trailblazer that she is taking a wrong approach.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
You should know that the Baha'i teachings don't teach that Paul was a liar and false Prophet. This is a an extreme position by one Christian scholar. This one is really out there. I'm referring to the second link. I don't think he was a liar or false Prophet, regardless of Baha'i teachings. You shouldn't rely on other people to win an argument. You are picking people who already see things as you do to confirm your view on this. That is not independent investigation. You should look on all sides to find the truth.There is no reason for us to do the work that many have done already.
"Paul vs Jesus - A list of contradictory statements" By Edgar Jones
source: http://www.truthseekers.co.za/content/view/84/59/ Paul vs Jesus - A list of contradictory statements By Edgar Jones John.5 [24] Trul...
This is one thing that happens when people debate, and has happened here.
Feedmysheep
Member
These are twenty two men (or women) who claimed either some kind of reincarnation / re-embodiment / spiritual channeler of Christ or someone else (Confucious, Mary Magdelen, Buddha) and/or claimed messianic status for themselves. They founded various messianic like cults. Most claimed to give some supposedly more accurate interpretation of the Bible. Everyone was a False Christ.There is no reason for us to do the work that many have done already.
"Paul vs Jesus - A list of contradictory statements" By Edgar Jones
source: http://www.truthseekers.co.za/content/view/84/59/ Paul vs Jesus - A list of contradictory statements By Edgar Jones John.5 [24] Trul...
John Nichols Thom (1799-1838) - England
Arnold Potter (1804-1872) - America
Baha'u'llah (1770-1872 (?) ) - Persia
William Water Davies (1833-1906) - America
Gulam Amhad (1835-1908) - India
Lu Paling Bor (1898-1968) - Netherlands
Ernest Norman (1904-1971) - American
Krishna Venta (1911-1958) - America
Ansang Hong (1918-1985) South Korea
Sun Myung Moon (1920-2012) - South Korea
Jim Jones (1931-1978) - America
Marshal Applewhite (1931-1977) - America
Wayne Bent (aka Michael Traveser) (still living serving time) America
Arafan Muhammed (ska Ara Pin) (founded a cult in 1975) - Malaysia
Matayoshimitsuo (founded a cult 1997) - Japan
Jose Luis De Jesus Miranda (1936-2014) Latin America
Christ Lisbet (wife of deceased husband above) - Latin America
Ezekiel Atusi (1918-2000) - Peru
David Shayler (proclaimed himself the Messiah 2007) England
Oscar Romero ( claimed to be Jesus Christ in 2011) America
Alan John Miller (still living ) - Australia
Enri Christo (proclaimed himself reincarnation of Jesus Christ in 1969) - Brazil
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