Second Coming

[Truthseeker]

Baha'u'llah (1770-1872) - Persia

Yes, attack back, that's what happens in debates. This is not even the correct dates for Baha'u'llah. The correct dates are 1817-1892.

 

[Feedmysheep]

Yes, attack back, that's what happens in debates. This is not even the correct dates for Baha'u'llah. The correct dates are 1817-1892.

Thankyou if the date correction is accurate.

Do you have a "glass jaw?" - able to dish skepticsm out in spades,
yet not able to take in when it comes back your way?

 

[Feedmysheep]

You should know that the Baha'i teachings don't teach that Paul was a liar and false Prophet. This is a an extreme position by one Christian scholar. This one is really out there. I'm referring to the second link. I don't think he was a liar or false Prophet, regardless of Baha'i teachings. You shouldn't rely on other people to win an argument. You are picking people who already see things as you do to confirm your view on this. That is not independent investigation. You should look on all sides to find the truth.

This is one thing that happens when people debate, and has happened here.

It should be known that the earliest documents informing us of what the early Christian church believed
are found in the writings of Paul.

I believe the earliest document is First Thessalonians. The writing pre-dates the writing of all four of the gospels.
If you read that letter you get a window not only into what the earliest Christians taught but what kind of character
Paul had. Paul reminds the Thessalonian Christians how nobly, purely, guilessly, with integrity he and his co-workers were among
them.

This is very significant. Anyone can boast to a third party about themselves. It is another thing to REMIND his audience
to recall how their methods of work were with integrity. Ie. "You know what kind of men we were when we were with you."

Much more could be said about this. But for now know that if we want to know WHAT the earliest Christians taught and believed
the letters of Paul are the closest earliest of that. They were written before the four gospels.

 

[Jimmy]

These are twenty two men (or women) who claimed either some kind of reincarnation / re-embodiment / spiritual channeler of Christ or someone else (Confucious, Mary Magdelen, Buddha) and/or claimed messianic status for themselves. They founded various messianic like cults. Most claimed to give some supposedly more accurate interpretation of the Bible. Everyone was a False Christ.

John Nichols Thom (1799-1838) - England

Arnold Potter (1804-1872) - America

Baha'u'llah (1770-1872) - Persia

William Water Davies (1833-1906) - America

Gulam Amhad (1835-1908) - India

Lu Paling Bor (1898-1968) - Netherlands

Ernest Norman (1904-1971) - American

Krishna Venta (1911-1958) - America

Ansang Hong (1918-1985) South Korea

Sun Myung Moon (1920-2012) - South Korea

Jim Jones (1931-1978) - America

Marshal Applewhite (1931-1977) - America

Wayne Bent (aka Michael Traveser) (still living serving time) America

Arafan Muhammed (ska Ara Pin) (founded a cult in 1975) - Malaysia

Matayoshimitsuo (founded a cult 1997) - Japan

Jose Luis De Jesus Miranda (1936-2014) Latin America

Christ Lisbet (wife of deceased husband above) - Latin America

Ezekiel Atusi (1918-2000) - Peru

David Shayler (proclaimed himself the Messiah 2007) England

Oscar Romero ( claimed to be Jesus Christ in 2011) America

Alan John Miller (still living ) - Australia

Enri Christo (proclaimed himself reincarnation of Jesus Christ in 1969) - Brazil

You forgot Vissarion the Russian Jesus

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Yes, attack back, that's what happens in debates. This is not even the correct dates for Baha'u'llah. The correct dates are 1817-1892.

As I said to @Trailblazer the other day, I'm confident that you're taking all of this redundant proselytizing and preaching of Christianity with a grain of salt. Honestly, I can't think of a single reason why you or she should take any of this disparaging of your Baha'i Faith seriously. Don't let it get to you, my friends.

 

[Feedmysheep]

I don't intend to debate this. In a couple of instances what Paul says goes against what Baha'i says.

Surely. The latter had not yet been born though.

In another instance, it is apparent to me that Paul expected that in his lifetime Jesus would return.

All the twelve apostles had this HOPE that Jesus would soon return. However, it is impossible to deny that they prepared their
audience for the "long distance run" just in case He did NOT return in their lifetimes.

You cannot fault them for WANTING the Lord Jesus to soon return.
And you should commend them for preparing adaquate contingency should He not return right away.

Just one example from Peter.

Therefore I will be ready always to remind you concerning these things, even though you know them and have been established in the present truth. And I consider it right, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by a reminder,
Knowing that the putting off of my tabernacle is imminent, even as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me.
Moreover I will also be diligent that you may be able, after my exodus, to bring these things to mind at all times. (2 Pet. 1:12-15)

You can contend that if you want, but I won't enter into a quagmire of debate on that, because I know I won't affect your opinion. I'm sure you know Paul well, and have your reasons for believing that Paul did not really say that. I feel sure I don't know Paul as well as you do, I'm sure. I haven't paid a lot of attention to the letters after the Gospels, because I feel certain these are opinions of fallible people, while in the Gospels there is Christ, which is not a fallible person, though we are not sure what exactly he said because what he said was written down decades later. @Trailblazer is debating this, which is her style here, but it isn't mine. She knows she won't change your mind, but is putting on the record what she thinks on this to get some people who read her opinion to think about this. At least that's how I understand her rationale. I'm all the time not understanding her rationale. I just have a different way of dealing with stuff like this, I'm not going to try to tell @Trailblazer that she is taking a wrong approach.

I don't mean to sound grumpy on you.
Yes, the whole New Testament I know and am getting more to know.

 

[Feedmysheep]

You forgot Vissarion the Russian Jesus

There are quite a few more that I didn't mention.

Father Divine, Sweet Daddy Grace, maybe David Koresh, on and on.
There will be more.

 

[Jimmy]

There are quite a few more that I didn't mention.

Father Divine, Sweet Daddy Grace, maybe David Koresh, on and on.
There will be more.

Sweet daddy lol

 

[Truthseeker]

As I said to @Trailblazer the other day, I'm confident that you're taking all of this redundant proselytizing and preaching of Christianity with a grain of salt. Honestly, I can't think of a single reason why you or she should take any of this disparaging of your Baha'i Faith seriously. Don't let it get to you, my friends.

I do take it with a grain of salt. It is not a serious attack, because of the incorrect dates. This person knows nothing about the Baha'i Faith. Totally nonthreatening.

 

[Trailblazer]

These are twenty two men (or women) who claimed either some kind of reincarnation / re-embodiment / spiritual channeler of Christ or someone else (Confucious, Mary Magdelen, Buddha) and/or claimed messianic status for themselves. They founded various messianic like cults. Most claimed to give some supposedly more accurate interpretation of the Bible. Everyone was a False Christ.

Every one was a false Christ except Baha'u'llah, who never claimed to be Christ.

Jesus warned about those who would come claiming to be Christ because Jesus knew that many false prophets would come making that claim..

Matthew 24
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

When Jesus was asked what would be the sign of HIS COMING, He did not answer for one simple reason --- Jesus never planned to return to earth. That is why Jesus said:

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 

[Trailblazer]

You should know that the Baha'i teachings don't teach that Paul was a liar and false Prophet. This is a an extreme position by one Christian scholar.

I do not care what the Baha'i teachings teach. I can think for myself.

Aside from that, I did not say that Paul was a liar and false Prophet.
I only ever said he contradicted what Jesus taught and changed the course of Christianity so that it because the religion of Paul, not the religion of Jesus.

That is abundantly clear to anyone who has studied the Bible. If the UHJ feels a need to cover for Paul that is not my problem.

If Christians want to follow Paul instead of Jesus that's fine, but they should be aware of who they are following.

 

[Jimmy]

I do not care what the Baha'i teachings teach. I can think for myself.

Aside from that, I did not say that Paul was a liar and false Prophet.
I only ever said he contradicted what Jesus taught and changed the course of Christianity so that it because the religion of Paul, not the religion of Jesus.

That is abundantly clear to anyone who has studied the Bible. If the UHJ feels a need to cover for Paul that is not my problem.

If Christians want to follow Paul instead of Jesus that's fine, but they should be aware of who they are following.

They follow Jesus who is god in flesh, raised himself from the dead and will return with a new heaven and new earth. Furthermore, most of them see this as symbolic to their time.

 

[Trailblazer]

You shouldn't rely on other people to win an argument. You are picking people who already see things as you do to confirm your view on this. That is not independent investigation. You should look on all sides to find the truth.

I did not pick these links to win an argument. I only posted the links that I found and I don't necessarily agree with everything that is on all the links.

I wish you would stop referring to Baha'i dogma. Independent investigation of truth is when you are looking for the truth. I already found the truth. I am not looking for the truth in the Bible since it is and old book that does not apply to the age in which we live and it is chock full of falsehoods.

Why should I look for the truth as to whether Paul contradicted Jesus when that research that has already been done? I am not a Bible scholar, so I rely on people who are scholars.

 

[Trailblazer]

They follow Jesus who is god in flesh, raised himself from the dead and will return with a new heaven and new earth. Furthermore, most of them see this as symbolic to their time.

They follow the teachings of Paul, and regarding who Jesus was, most of those teachings are false.
Jesus never claimed to be God in the flesh and Jesus never said that He rose from the dead. Men wrote those resurrection stories about Jesus.

 

[Truthseeker]

Thankyou if the date correction is accurate.

Do you have a "glass jaw?" - able to dish skepticsm out in spades,
yet not able to take in when it comes back your way?

You are so far off the mark, I'm not bothered in the least.

 

[Truthseeker]

Why should I look for the truth as to whether Paul contradicted Jesus when that research that has already been done? I am not a Bible scholar, so I rely on people who are scholars.

Are you hunting for scholars though who agree with you?

 

[Trailblazer]

Are you hunting for scholars though who agree with you?

No, I am not doing that, but I'd like to see any scholars who say that Paul did not change the course of Christianity, or that Paul never contradicted what Jesus said.

You will not find any scholars who say that because it is not true. You will only find Christians who say that, but they have no leg to stand on.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Jesus never claimed to be God in the flesh and Jesus never said that He rose from the dead. Men wrote those resurrection stories about Jesus.

That is right .. there are varying opinions .. and that goes for the opinions of authors
included in the Bible canon.
I believe that Paul/Saul was a sincere convert in as much as he believed Jesus is the Jewish
Messiah .. many beliefs expressed in Pauline works are those of his own, and often misunderstood..
..taken out of context.

Paul/Saul was not a prophet, despite his visions/dreams. He didn't claim to be.
He was a teacher .. he taught non-Jews.

 

[Truthseeker]

Interesting thought I had today @Trailblazer. Maybe since Paul expected Christ to return in his lifetime, and I know that Paul wrote that before the Gospels were written, the scripture that seems to indicate that Christ was saying He would return in some people's lifetime was influenced by what Paul said.

16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
(King James Bible, Matthew)

 

[Truthseeker]

I believe that Paul/Saul was a sincere convert in as much as he believed Jesus is the Jewish
Messiah .. many beliefs expressed in Pauline works are those of his own, and often misunderstood..
..taken out of context.

Paul/Saul was not a prophet, despite his visions/dreams. He didn't claim to be.
He was a teacher .. he taught non-Jews.

I agree with everything you said here.