Second Coming

[Truthseeker]

No, I am not doing that, but I'd like to see any scholars who say that Paul did not change the course of Christianity, or that Paul never contradicted what Jesus said.

I agree that he did change the course of Christianity. However I don't think that was his intention. It was later Christians that exalted his opinions to be equal to what Christ said, though not equal in station. They don't believe that he was equal in station. It's analogous to Abdu'l-Baha and Baha'u'llah for most of us. Sometimes he was wrong, and that changed the course of Christianity. Sometimes he was misunderstood and that changed the course of Christianity. For instance how Martin Luther misunderstood him to be saying that grace alone saved, not works at all. Paul had said the works of the law didn't save, by which I believe he meant Jewish law. After all, he was a Jew, and those of that time understood that when he said law, he meant Jewish law. Luther was filled with guilt about being a sinner (I've read about Luther), and this doctrine he came up with relieved his guilt. Quite a good incentive for believing as he did.

Another misunderstanding was about original sin. It wasn't until the early 5th century that Augustine came up with that doctrine based on his understanding of Paul.

I don't know if he said anything that explicitly contradicts what Jesus said, but he did say things that contradicts what Baha'i teaches. After all, Christ didn't say very much on the record. There was wriggle room to believe a lot of things. Probably he did, but I don't know enough.

 

[Muffled]

We will be.

1 Corinthians 15
New Living Translation
The Resurrection Body

35 But someone may ask, “How will the dead be raised? What kind of bodies will they have?”

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.
41 The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory.
42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever.
43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength.
44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

I believe a body is not a spirit and a spirit is not a body, so there can be no such thing as a spiritual body. What it can be is a body that is quite different from the one now and Paul is reaching for some way to describe it.

 

[Muffled]

That is right .. there are varying opinions .. and that goes for the opinions of authors
included in the Bible canon.
I believe that Paul/Saul was a sincere convert in as much as he believed Jesus is the Jewish
Messiah .. many beliefs expressed in Pauline works are those of his own, and often misunderstood..
..taken out of context.

Paul/Saul was not a prophet, despite his visions/dreams. He didn't claim to be.
He was a teacher .. he taught non-Jews.

I believe there is no contrary opinion in the Bible and Paul has the Holy Spirit to help him with his theology.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe a body is not a spirit and a spirit is not a body, so there can be no such thing as a spiritual body. What it can be is a body that is quite different from the one now and Paul is reaching for some way to describe it.

I believe a body is not a spirit and a spirit is not a body, but that does not mean that there can be no such thing as a spiritual body.
A spiritual body is a body that is quite different from the one we have now and it cannot be described because we don't know what it will be like.

 

[Fool]

When Do you think he’ll arrive? Where do you think he’ll show up?

behold I AM with you always.

the kingdom comes from within you

 

[Fool]

People have been say that for the almost 2000 years.

and some have not tasted death before that great and terrible(terrific) day

 

[Fool]

I believe a body is not a spirit and a spirit is not a body, but that does not mean that there can be no such thing as a spiritual body.
A spiritual body is a body that is quite different from the one we have now and it cannot be described because we don't know what it will be like.

but is a spirit some how a physical thing?

 

[Trailblazer]

but is a spirit some how a physical thing?

No, a spirit is not physical, nor is a spiritual body physical.

A spiritual body is a body that is different from the one we have now.

1 Corinthians 15
New Living Translation
40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

 

[Fool]

No, a spirit is not physical, nor is a spiritual body physical.

A spiritual body is a body that is different from the one we have now.

1 Corinthians 15
New Living Translation
40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

bodies are generally seen as types of matter vs antimatter, or energy.

being implies movement, thus the name of god is a verb. a verb is an action..... in the case of the name, it's an infinitive.

 

[Trailblazer]

bodies are generally seen as types of matter vs antimatter, or energy.

A spiritual body is not energy with no form, it is made of something.

Physical bodies are made of physical matter. Heavenly bodies are made of heavenly matter.

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 27-28

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I believe a body is not a spirit and a spirit is not a body, but that does not mean that there can be no such thing as a spiritual body.
A spiritual body is a body that is quite different from the one we have now and it cannot be described because we don't know what it will be like.

No, a spirit is not physical, nor is a spiritual body physical.

A spiritual body is a body that is different from the one we have now.

I agree with you about the spiritual body, but I think it can be described by those who have seen spirits. I'm referring to genuine psychic mediums or even people without mediumship who have encountered spirits, such as paranormal investigators or others who were in the right place at the right time or in the wrong place at the wrong time, depending on the type of encounter it was. In response to yours posts, I'd like to repost what I wrote on a similar topic.

The following is what I previously wrote on this subject.

This is what I believe and have personally experienced. As I've mentioned in previous posts (including this one), the majority of the earthbound human spirits that I visually see are translucent, and they typically manifest themselves as they perceived themselves prior to death, including the clothing that they associated most closely with their identity in life. I've seen the spirits of Union and Confederate soldiers manifest and appear in their uniforms, as well as other spirits manifest in the clothing of the era in which they died. In my experience encountering these spirits, they are often mistaken for historical reenactment actors or local residents who are dedicated to the history of the location. I understand that such an encounter can be shocking to the living.

Read my post here for further details about my past experiences with these spirits.

Full-body apparitions are the closest I've ever seen to earthbound human spirits that resemble living humans. These spirits can accumulate enough energy to manifest into more than a spectral image. They can appear and feel like a real living person, but then they will totally shock the hell out of living people by walking through a solid wall or door, vanishing right before their eyes, or vanishing without a trace in a matter of seconds. I've seen these extraordinary spirits mostly in homes from the Civil War era, in Civil War museums, and on Civil War battlefields. My husband has also seen a couple of these spirits. In fact, he had a shocking encounter with one that literally changed his personal perspective of the Bible's depictions of the afterlife. It truly changed his life.

I've shared the story of his encounter in these prior posts: post #1 and post #2.

I've often said that the primary distinction between us and the earthbound spirits all around us is that they are dead and we are still alive. And although most living people may never visually see a spirit (a.k.a., a ghost), their bodies will certainly react to being close to one. The goosebumps on a person's arm, the standing hair on their arms and the back of their neck, and the dreaded feeling of being watched when no one else is present are commonly believed in the paranormal field to be our physical bodies' reaction to encountering something metaphysical, like earthbound spirits, whether human or non-human. However, it is becoming increasingly normal for living people to freely acknowledge that there is more to our physical world than meets the eye. In fact, belief in the paranormal, such as in ghosts and hauntings, is more widely accepted than in years past. It's more acceptable to talk about it.

I further explained this favorable trend and provided current statistics in my previous post here.

Personally, I find this information to be pretty positive, and I'm really pleased with it. As someone who lives with paranormal phenomena on a daily basis and has since I was a small child, I can honestly say that I believe it is a small step in the right direction. Poltergeist activity is very common in my house, and it doesn't frighten me or my family. It's not unusual to hear footsteps in the hallway in the middle of the night when everyone is in their room, to hear knocking on the walls, to hear disembodied voices coming from an empty bedroom or from the living room in the middle of the night, or to see a partial or full body apparition. If the activity becomes annoying, such as returning home to find the cabinet doors and drawers open in the kitchen, I'll fuss about it, and it won't happen again for a while. It's usually the new spirits who cause this activity, though. I consider the resident spirits in my house to be family because they have been here for a long time. In fact, my family and these spirits live peacefully in my home. Most of these spirits followed me home and opted to stay, or they have a connection to my house or the land. We're not afraid of the activity because we understand what it is and why it's happening.

 

[Muffled]

I believe a body is not a spirit and a spirit is not a body, but that does not mean that there can be no such thing as a spiritual body.
A spiritual body is a body that is quite different from the one we have now and it cannot be described because we don't know what it will be like.

I believe you are having trouble understanding English.

 

[Muffled]

behold I AM with you always.

the kingdom comes from within you

I believe that is true spiritually but not physically.

 

[Muffled]

and some have not tasted death before that great and terrible(terrific) day

I believe that will be true of the generation that is alive when Jesus returns but if you want to believe the "You" are the people he is talking to then it would be them reincarnated.

 

[Feedmysheep]

You are so far off the mark, I'm not bothered in the least.

Okay.

 

[Feedmysheep]

Paul/Saul was not a prophet, despite his visions/dreams. He didn't claim to be.
He was a teacher .. he taught non-Jews.

Do you think to be a prophet means one must predict some future event?
Paul encouraged the believers to prophesy one by one. I don't think he was telling them
to do something he himself did not do.

For you can all prophesy one by one that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
And the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;

To prophesy (be a prophet) is also to speak words of godly encouragment to men from God's presence with you.
Certainly the Apostle Paul did that.

To edify the congregation of Christian believers Paul encouraged all Christians to seek this gift of prophesying.
He surely was not advizing them to do something he himself did not do.

Pursue love, and desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. (1 Cor. 14:1)

I desire that you all speak in tongues, but especially that you would prophesy; and greater is he who prophesies than he who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, that the church may receive building up. (v.5)

So you see Paul sometimes functioned as a prophet. And he desired Christians to do the same.
The believers build up themselves and build up one another's faith when speaking for God.

But if all prophesy and some unbeliever or unlearned person enters, he is convicted by all, he is examined by all; (v.24)

 

[Feedmysheep]

Every one was a false Christ except Baha'u'llah, who never claimed to be Christ.

Trailblazer, if I understand you rightly, you are claiming Baha'u'llah to be Christ.
You're doing that for him. And he must have taught you to follow his teaching.

If I understand you, you're saying the "another Comforter" Jesus said would be given to His disciples is Baha'ullah.
Am I right?

The "another Comforter" Jesus said would be with the disciples forever. Baha'u'llah died.

And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever, (John 14:16)

This Spirit of truth Jesus said would be with the disciples forever. And the Apostle John also said the truth would be with the
Christian believers forever.

For the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever: (2 John 2)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The "another Comforter" Jesus said would be with the disciples forever. Baha'u'llah died.

So did Jesus die, but he is alive in Christ to Billions of followers today.

Baha'u'llah is of the same One Holy Spirit and is just as alive today, as Jesus the Christ is.

This is the meaning of the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, the Alpha and Omega.

Regards Tony

 

[muhammad_isa]

So you see Paul sometimes functioned as a prophet. And he desired Christians to do the same..

That makes little sense .. it's about authority .. and the "sons of G-d" are special, in as much
as they are chosen by G-d to be closer to Him .. more Holy .. authoritative.

We can't all be self-proclaimed prophets, with our own opinions and claiming authority.
That leads to falsehood and disaster.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer, if I understand you rightly, you are claiming Baha'u'llah to be Christ.

Baha'u'llah never claimed to be Jesus Christ. He claimed to be the return of the Spirit of God.

“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.”
(Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 246)

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 246-249

“We, in truth, have sent Him Whom We aided with the Holy Spirit (Jesus Christ) that He may announce unto you this Light that hath shone forth from the horizon of the will of your Lord, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, and Whose signs have been revealed in the West. Set your faces towards Him (Bahá’u’lláh) on this Day which God hath exalted above all other days, and whereon the All-Merciful hath shed the splendour of His effulgent glory upon all who are in heaven and all who are on earth.” (Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 18)

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 17-23

“This is, truly, that which the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) hath announced, when He came with truth unto you, He with Whom the Jewish doctors disputed, till at last they perpetrated what hath made the Holy Spirit to lament, and the tears of them that have near access to God to flow….”
(Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 19)

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 17-23

“The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty.” (Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 84-85)

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 83-86

“Ye make mention of Me, and know Me not. Ye call upon Me, and are heedless of My Revelation…. O people of the Gospel! They who were not in the Kingdom have now entered it, whilst We behold you, in this day, tarrying at the gate. Rend the veils asunder by the power of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Bounteous, and enter, then, in My name My Kingdom. Thus biddeth you He Who desireth for you everlasting life…”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 91

“WE, verily, have come for your sakes, and have borne the misfortunes of the world for your salvation. Flee ye the One Who hath sacrificed His life that ye may be quickened? Fear God, O followers of the Spirit (Jesus), and walk not in the footsteps of every divine that hath gone far astray… Open the doors of your hearts. He Who is the Spirit (Jesus) verily, standeth before them.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 92

Baha'u'llah says WE because He is referring to Himself and Jesus Christ. Both of them have borne the misfortunes of the world for our salvation.

You're doing that for him. And he must have taught you to follow his teaching.

Baha'u'llah did not teach me anything. I taught myself by reading what He wrote.

If I understand you, you're saying the "another Comforter" Jesus said would be given to His disciples is Baha'ullah.
Am I right?

Yes, you are right. Jesus was a Comforter because He brought the Holy Spirit from God, which comforts us...
Baha'u'llah was another Comforter because He brought the Holy Spirit from God, which comforts us...

The "another Comforter" Jesus said would be with the disciples forever. Baha'u'llah died.

And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever, (John 14:16)

The Comforter is the Holy Spirit but the Comforter is a 'title' for the man who brought the Holy Spirit from God.
The Holy Spirit will be with the disciples forever.

This Spirit of truth Jesus said would be with the disciples forever. And the Apostle John also said the truth would be with the
Christian believers forever.

For the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever: (2 John 2)

The Comforter and the Spirit of truth are titles that refer to the same person who brought the Holy Spirit from God.
I believe that person was Baha'u'llah.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.