Secularists--Would You Eliminate All Religion, If You Could?

[Storm]

i agree, but i would still want religious education to be taught in schools.

Me, too.

 

[Starfish]

By contrast don't impose it into our judicial system, public schools and personal lives. We mind you imposing on those of us who couldn't care less about your God or your religion by mandating it in schools, courts, laws and public policies.

But don't pursue those ends through government thus mandating on those of us who couldn't care less about Jesus or his beliefs.

I'm sorry I keep asking for examples. I'm really trying to understand this better. How is religion being imposed into the judicial system, etc.?

I belong to what would probably be classified as a "dogmatic" religion. However, I don't expect prayer in public school. I just don't want it banned-- if a group in school all agree they want to pray together, I think they should be allowed. But I wouldn't expect it in class or in an assembly, etc.
I don't mind evolution taught in school, because I'm capable of teaching my kids another view at home. In fact I think my kids were all taught evolution and are creationists today.
I don't mind Christmas focusing on snowmen and Santa, but I don't want Christ banned from the holiday in a public setting. Nor do I mind other religions honoring their holidays publicly either.
I do mind abortion, because someone needs to speak up for the voiceless child.
Gay marriage--I'd rather marriage stay the way it always has been. (I do see why this one can be a sore spot. I kind of see your point here. However, the majority of the population in the U.S. prefers the traditional concept.)

But I'm confused where else the imposition is happening, exactly.

 

[Autodidact]

If secularism was a religion, couldn't you say they were imposing their views on others as well--not allowing prayer in school, banning Creationism, or banning any form of religion in the public place?

Secular means a nuetral playing field, no religion or lack of religion favored. It doesn't mean atheism. It means that everyone gets to practice their religion or lack thereof, and no one gets to use the government to impose their religion or lack thereof on others. It is pretty much the opposite of a religion. A secular system is best for religionists as well as non-religionists.

 

[Autodidact]

Do you have examples of civic religion? Or do you mean the same as in post 13?

Civic religion = Saudi Arabia.

 

[Fluffy]

I would like everybody to believe that having justified beliefs is more important than having true beliefs. What people will end up believing about the truth will be dictated by what the truth is and I have no preference over whether that ends up being theism or atheism.

Essentially what I am saying is that I would not want everybody to believe in secularism if theism is, in fact, more justified.

I don't understand why anybody would wish anything other than this.

 

[Storm]

I don't mind Christmas focusing on snowmen and Santa, but I don't want Christ banned from the holiday in a public setting. Nor do I mind other religions honoring their holidays publicly either.

I'd rather that there were no religious holidays honored in a civic setting. If a church or individual wants to put up a manger display, that's fine, but not the government. However, this particular issue isn't really a big deal.

I do mind abortion, because someone needs to speak up for the voiceless child.

I'm preo-choice myself, but I don't really see this as a religious issue, personally.

Gay marriage--I'd rather marriage stay the way it always has been. (I do see why this one can be a sore spot. I kind of see your point here. However, the majority of the population in the U.S. prefers the traditional concept.)

The idea that marriage as it's currently practiced in the US is how it's always been is just a myth though. Even if you pay no attention to the fact that marriage was historically polygamous, marriage for love has barely been around for a century.

That issue aside, if the government is going to bestow legal rights on marriage, which I already have HUGE issues with, those rights need to be available to all citizens.

 

[Autodidact]

I'm sorry I keep asking for examples. I'm really trying to understand this better. How is religion being imposed into the judicial system, etc.?

I belong to what would probably be classified as a "dogmatic" religion. However, I don't expect prayer in public school.

Many do.

I just don't want it banned-- if a group in school all agree they want to pray together, I think they should be allowed. But I wouldn't expect it in class or in an assembly, etc.

This is the current law, under our secular system. Anyone can pray in school, including in a voluntary prayer group, and there should be no prayers in class, assembly, before sports events or other school sponsored event. You are advocating secularism.

I don't mind evolution taught in school, because I'm capable of teaching my kids another view at home. In fact I think my kids were all taught evolution and are creationists today.

Well that's fine for you (not so great for your kids not to know the truth) but right now there are million of Christians fighting to have creationism taught as science in the public schools.

I don't mind Christmas focusing on snowmen and Santa, but I don't want Christ banned from the holiday in a public setting. Nor do I mind other religions honoring their holidays publicly either.

How about the government? Should the government honor Christ at Christmas? The issue is not public, it's civic. See the difference?

I do mind abortion, because someone needs to speak up for the voiceless child.

But I'm confused where else the imposition is happening, exactly.

We live under a secular system in the U.S., because of our Constitution. However, millions of Christian dominionists are trying to change this to impose Christianity as our state religion. That is what we need to resist--you agree?

 

[Autodidact]

So, I am not in any way trying to make atheism required, or to outlaw religion. I am seeking that our secular system of government in the U.S. be maintained. Because I believe that reason favors my position, I am willing to bet that in the free market of ideas, atheism will eventually predominate. Some religionists seem to fear that if the playing field is flat, they will lose adherents. This seems to me to indicate that they know their position is weak.

 

[Storm]

BTW, Starfish, what does CTR stand for?

 

[Starfish]

How about the government? Should the government honor Christ at Christmas? The issue is not public, it's civic. See the difference?
We live under a secular system in the U.S., because of our Constitution. However, millions of Christian dominionists are trying to change this to impose Christianity as our state religion. That is what we need to resist--you agree?

How is our government honoring Christ at Christmas?

Public / civic -- yes, I see what you're saying. But I don't see what those Christian dominionists are doing exactly to impose their beliefs civily. (Unless we covered it all in the previous posts.)

I mean, is this all about prayer in the Senate, the phrase on our coins, and the Pledge of Allegiance?

 

[Starfish]

BTW, Starfish, what does CTR stand for?

Choose The Right.

 

[Storm]

I mean, is this all about prayer in the Senate, the phrase on our coins, and the Pledge of Allegiance?

Those are examples of the small issues. The larger ones are tings like gay marriang and creationism in science classes.

 

[Storm]

Choose The Right.

Thanks.

 

[Starfish]

So does the government honor Christ at Christmas? (Just a small point I'd like to get out of the way.)

 

[Storm]

So does the government honor Christ at Christmas? (Just a small point I'd like to get out of the way.)

In all honesty, I can't think of an example of them trying, and that's a good thing to my secularist mind.

 

[Magic Man]

So does the government honor Christ at Christmas? (Just a small point I'd like to get out of the way.)

No, and that's my problem with people wanting to get rid of anything Christmas-y in public/government places. At this point, for a lot of people, Christmas has taken on a life of its own outside of Christianity. I'm atheistic, and I still celebrate it, as do several of my friends who are Jewish. As you say, I don't honor Christ, just the idea of a holiday as a time of togetherness and giving.

 

[Starfish]

So, if I understand this correctly, the only real complaints of imposition of religion, are about evolution VS creationism taught in public schools, and same-sex marriage. The other stuff is minor.

Is this correct, or did I forget something?

 

[Storm]

So, if I understand this correctly, the only real complaints of imposition of religion, are about evolution VS creationism taught in public schools, and same-sex marriage. The other stuff is minor.

Is this correct, or did I forget something?

It's correct as far as I"m concerned. Other people might have other issues they deem important. (Others probably also consider abortion a religious issue, and that would be a majr one.)

 

[Starfish]

It's correct as far as I"m concerned. Other people might have other issues they deem important. (Others probably also consider abortion a religious issue, and that would be a majr one.)

So if this is correct then I'm more confused than ever. How are theists imposing on atheists? It appears that secularism is what we've got.

1. Evolution is being taught in schools.
2. Abortion is legal.
3. Gay marriage is coming, in spite of the fact that it has been defeated in every state that voted on it, most by a wide margin. So here the majority is being imposed upon by the minority.

More than ever, I don't understand what secularists have against religion. Other than in a few minor cases, such as our coins, the secularists seem to have their way. What am I not seeing here?

 

[Fluffy]

3. Gay marriage is coming, in spite of the fact that it has been defeated in every state that voted on it, most by a wide margin. So here the majority is being imposed upon by the minority.

In what way does gay marriage impose upon the majority? Is it in any sense comparable to the imposition placed upon homosexuals who wish to marry but cannot?

More than ever, I don't understand what secularists have against religion. Other than in a few minor cases, such as our coins, the secularists seem to have their way. What am I not seeing here?

It just seems like whenever one of these issues is mentioned, there is an overwhelming feeling from Christians (not theists) that these things should not happen and that it is fine to have prayer sessions as part of the daily routine or to have the 10 commandments displayed in the law courts.

Atheists don't wish for a secular society because they feel that atheism is right. They wish for a secular society because they think it is fair for all faiths and none. They also wish that all theists wished for it as well.