Secularists--Would You Eliminate All Religion, If You Could?

[Starfish]

I not only celebrate Christmas; I have no problem with attending a Christmas service at a church. It's not as if I'm afraid of Christianity or something. But neither my personal preferences about religious holidays, nor yours, nor anybody else's, ought to be adopted by the government.

How has the government adopted any religious preferences concerning holidays?

 

[Smoke]

The majority voted against interracial marriage as well.

That's one of my beefs with Obama. When he was born, his parents' marriage was illegal in 22 states. He should know better.

 

[Smoke]

How has the government adopted any religious preferences concerning holidays?

Just saying they shouldn't.

 

[Storm]

That's one of my beefs with Obama. When he was born, his parents' marriage was illegal in 22 states. He should know better.

Alas Midnight, I cannot frubal you again.

 

[Starfish]

No, we'd just like believers to stop shoving their religions down our throats. And actually, that's how I felt about it when I was a believer, too. No religion that's at all worthwhile has to resort to compulsion.

As a rule, they're not. That's because we live in a secular country, with a secular system of government. What I'm saying is, let's keep it that way. Do you agree?

Well, maybe you're not familiar the Dominionist or Reconstructionist movement, which seeks to make the United States a Christian theocracy, in which all religions other than conservative Christianity would be banned, and Biblical law would be the law of the nation? You can read more about them here.

It's about a movement that seeks much more than that, a movement that wants to make the U.S. a country in which their brand of Christianity is mandatory, in which Wiccans would be executed, sodomy punishable by death, and so forth.

The battles now are being fought over things like ten commandment monuments on courthouse lawns, mandated teaching of creationism a.k.a. intelligent design, Air Force Academy officers pressuring cadets to convert to Christianity, and other issues.

Are the groups that are "shoving religion down throats" really that large? Or is it just a few noisy ones?
I've never heard of the Dominionists or Reconstructionists--are they really that powerful?
It seems that small groups on both sides of the issue make enough noise that everyone thinks everyone is involved. Whereas in fact, most people are very reasonable and not very militant at all. At least this is my guess.

I've never shoved my beliefs down anyone's throat. The only time my opinion has affected anyone is in an election, with my vote. And everyone has the right to vote
according to what they believe. Yet I feel like I'm being blamed for something--though I'm not quite sure what.

On the other side of the coin, I do feel a lot of objectionable stuff shoved down my throat.

 

[Smoke]

I've never shoved my beliefs down anyone's throat. The only time my opinion has affected anyone is in an election, with my vote. And everyone has the right to vote according to what they believe.

If you have ever voted for any of the many referenda and initiatives prohibiting same-sex marriage, you are guilty of shoving your religious beliefs down the throats of others, and of causing harm to your neighbor.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How has the government adopted any religious preferences concerning holidays?

They've instituted the Christian ones as public holidays, for one. Why do we get Christmas and Easter off work if not for religious preferences?

Also, on a smaller but more frequent scale is the legal treatment of Sunday as different from all other days. When I was a kid, this meant that most retail stores were closed all day; these days in some places, there are still restrictions on liquor sales and that sort of thing.

 

[Magic Man]

They've instituted the Christian ones as public holidays, for one. Why do we get Christmas and Easter off work if not for religious preferences?

Also, on a smaller but more frequent scale is the legal treatment of Sunday as different from all other days. When I was a kid, this meant that most retail stores were closed all day; these days in some places, there are still restrictions on liquor sales and that sort of thing.

Up until fairly recently the vast majority of the country was Christian. Almost everybody held the view that Sunday was a rest day, and they observed the Christian holidays. Over the last 50 or so years we've seen a huge difference in the number of stores open on Sundays and even those religious holidays. Eventually I think the specialness of those days will cease to be completely.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

On the other side of the coin, I do feel a lot of objectionable stuff shoved down my throat.

Such as what, exactly?

 

[Starfish]

Such as what, exactly?

Since you asked . . .
Almost everytime I turn on the TV I am assaulted with immorality. Through commercials, movies, sitcoms. I hear the Lord's name used commonly--disrespectfully constantly. Magazine covers, store window displays and to find a novel to read without cuss words--a challenge. Trying to choose a movie to rent that isn't R rated.
Yes, I can turn off the TV, never rent movies, stay out of the mall, never stand in a grocery store check out line, stay away from high school campuses, . . . and basically stay away from public and live on a deserted island. I suppose I do have that choice.

My own personal sense of modesty and decency is assaulted all the time. And I hate that I am becoming desensitized by it more and more.

 

[Autodidact]

How has the government adopted any religious preferences concerning holidays?

Well, here in Colorado it's illegal to sell cars or alcohol on Sunday, for example.

 

[Autodidact]

Are the groups that are "shoving religion down throats" really that large? Or is it just a few noisy ones?

They are a significant voting bloc.

I've never heard of the Dominionists or Reconstructionists--are they really that powerful?

Yes. Perhaps you've heard of Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell?

It seems that small groups on both sides of the issue make enough noise that everyone thinks everyone is involved. Whereas in fact, most people are very reasonable and not very militant at all. At least this is my guess.

And yet sometimes countries go in very negative directions, and the U.S. is not immune to this possibility. It's imperative that everyone who values our Constitutional system of separation of Church and State fight against the Rod Parsleys of the world who are actively opposed to it. One of the ways they do this is to spread the lie that it is not part of our system of government, even though it's one of the main reasons our ancestors came here and fought for independence. I hope you will join in this fight.

I want to make a point about "both sides." They are not really equivalent. If someone were seeking to mandate atheism, and someone else to mandate Christianity, that would be two opposing sides. What we have is one side that is seeking to mandate Christianity, and another side that is fighting to keep the system neutral. Remember, secular means neutral, not anti-religion.

It's similar to the way they repackage creationism as "Intelligent Design", slur a scientific theory (evolution) by calling it a religion, and ask that both sides be taught. They slur a movement for neutrality (secularism) with calling it a religion, when it's the opposite, and then ask for a balance between both sides as though that were nuetrality. A compromise between neutrality and theocracy means only a partial theocracy. Secularism is the compromise, under which everyone is treated equally.

I've never shoved my beliefs down anyone's throat. The only time my opinion has affected anyone is in an election, with my vote. And everyone has the right to vote
according to what they believe. Yet I feel like I'm being blamed for something--though I'm not quite sure what.

It depends how you vote. For example, if you supported the Republican taxpayer-funded vote-buying machine that is the Office of Faith-Based Initiatives, then you're using my tax dollars to recruit new members to your church. Do you think that's fair? If you oppose my right to marry because you think it violates your religious rules, then yes, you're trying to shove your religion down my throat.

 

[Autodidact]

Since you asked . . .
Almost everytime I turn on the TV I am assaulted with immorality. Through commercials, movies, sitcoms. I hear the Lord's name used commonly--disrespectfully constantly. Magazine covers, store window displays and to find a novel to read without cuss words--a challenge. Trying to choose a movie to rent that isn't R rated.
Yes, I can turn off the TV, never rent movies, stay out of the mall, never stand in a grocery store check out line, stay away from high school campuses, . . . and basically stay away from public and live on a deserted island. I suppose I do have that choice.

My own personal sense of modesty and decency is assaulted all the time. And I hate that I am becoming desensitized by it more and more.

Well I feel the same way but since I have a remote control, I just change the channel. The difference here is that it's not government mandated. It's all private choice, in short, freedom. Which is what we're supposed to be about. Nobody's making you watch it. You don't have to turn it off, just change the channel. If nobody watched this stuff, it wouldn't be on. And please don't try to tell me that all movies are rated R, because that's not true. Again, the movie companies are making the movies people want to see. Do you think you should be able to prohibit them from making movies that offend you? Why do you hate America? (joke)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Since you asked . . .
Almost everytime I turn on the TV I am assaulted with immorality. Through commercials, movies, sitcoms. I hear the Lord's name used commonly--disrespectfully constantly. Magazine covers, store window displays. Trying to choose a movie to rent.
Yes, I can turn off the TV, never rent movies, stay out of the mall, never stand in a grocery store check out line, stay away from high school campuses, . . . and basically stay away from public and live on a deserted island. I suppose I do have that choice.

So... basically, you have an issue with people exercising the freedom of expression that you demand, just in a way that you personally don't agree with.

None of those things deal with civic secularism. The magazines, stores, TV broadcasts, and malls are all the products of private individuals or businesses acting as they see fit within the bounds of the law. What's wrong with that?

I'd personally never have a problem with, say, a Christian bookstore in the mall, even if they had displays of bumper stickers that made fun of atheists. I probably wouldn't choose to be a customer of the store, but I wouldn't try to close it.

And if the mall owner wants to put a display of the Ten Commandments up in the middle of the mall by the fountain, well, I recognize that it's his right to do so... even if I personally find it distasteful and inappropriate.

OTOH, if I heard a person disparage religion while acting in his capacity as a public official, I would have a problem with that.

My own personal sense of modesty and decency is assaulted all the time. And I hate that I am becoming desensitized by it more and more.

My own personal sense of modesty and decency is assaulted by the claim on many church signs, television shows and the like that I'm a bad person because I don't believe that Jesus died for my sins. What do you think I should do about my feeling of being affronted?

 

[Starfish]

Well I feel the same way but since I have a remote control, I just change the channel. The difference here is that it's not government mandated. It's all private choice, in short, freedom. Which is what we're supposed to be about. Nobody's making you watch it. You don't have to turn it off, just change the channel. If nobody watched this stuff, it wouldn't be on. And please don't try to tell me that all movies are rated R, because that's not true. Again, the movie companies are making the movies people want to see. Do you think you should be able to prohibit them from making movies that offend you? Why do you hate America? (joke)

So... basically, you have an issue with people exercising the freedom of expression that you demand, just in a way that you personally don't agree with.

None of those things deal with civic secularism. The magazines, stores, TV broadcasts, and malls are all the products of private individuals or businesses acting as they see fit within the bounds of the law. What's wrong with that?

I'd personally never have a problem with, say, a Christian bookstore in the mall, even if they had displays of bumper stickers that made fun of atheists. I probably wouldn't choose to be a customer of the store, but I wouldn't try to close it.

And if the mall owner wants to put a display of the Ten Commandments up in the middle of the mall by the fountain, well, I recognize that it's his right to do so... even if I personally find it distasteful and inappropriate.

OTOH, if I heard a person disparage religion while acting in his capacity as a public official, I would have a problem with that.


My own personal sense of modesty and decency is assaulted by the claim on many church signs, television shows and the like that I'm a bad person because I don't believe that Jesus died for my sins. What do you think I should do about my feeling of being affronted?

Did I say I was trying to get any of this closed or outlawed? No. I know it's legal, and it will stay legal. But I can hardly walk out the door or turn on anything electronic without being offended. We all have to live with stuff that we don't like, and I'd bet I have a lot more to put up with than you.

I've yet to see a religious display at a mall, and any TV show that might promote Jesus is rare and easily avoided. Yes, there are movies with other ratings, but not many and you still get to look at all the "lovely" pictures as you walk past.
My church never puts up message boards, nor do I wear my religion on my sleeve, as they say. I don't even wear a cross, in case that offends you. I am really tired of the "just turn the channel" argument because it's often the commercials and previews that are the worst. Several companies have tried to offer edited movies to rent, like the one's shown on airplanes, and Hollywood takes them to court. And the internet--don't get me started.

What I see here is a lot of complaint but very little actual civic involvement. Most government involvement seems more and more to lean away from the "religious right." So the throat-cramming complaint goes both ways.

BTW--where did the term "freedom of expression" get started? I've always wondered this.

 

[Autodidact]

Did I say I was trying to get any of this closed or outlawed? No. I know it's legal, and it will stay legal. But I can hardly walk out the door or turn on anything electronic without being offended. We all have to live with stuff that we don't like, and I'd bet I have a lot more to put up with than you.

I doubt it, if you're heterosexual and Christian.

I've yet to see a religious display at a mall,

Really, my local mall has a Christian bookstore.

My church never puts up message boards, nor do I wear my religion on my sleeve, as they say.

Well yours might not, but many do. They're all over my town. Here's a particularly offensive one:

\

How do you think I feel about that.

I don't even wear a cross, in case that offends you.

Millions do, that's the ponit.

I am really tired of the "just turn the channel" argument because it's often the commercials and previews that are the worst. Several companies have tried to offer edited movies to rent, like the one's shown on airplanes, and Hollywood takes them to court. And the internet--don't get me started.

So you want to restrict other people's freedom of expression? Would you like to have that done to you?

What I see here is a lot of complaint but very little actual civic involvement. Most government involvement seems more and more to lean away from the "religious right." So the throat-cramming complaint goes both ways.

No, it doesn't. Please cite an instance of government mandated, encouraged or sponsored atheism. That is, the government saying, in effect, there is no God.

 

[Starfish]

I doubt it, if you're heterosexual and Christian.

Really, my local mall has a Christian bookstore.
Well yours might not, but many do. They're all over my town. Here's a particularly offensive one:

\

How do you think I feel about that. Millions do, that's the ponit. So you want to restrict other people's freedom of expression? Would you like to have that done to you?

No, it doesn't. Please cite an instance of government mandated, encouraged or sponsored atheism. That is, the government saying, in effect, there is no God.

The malls around here just get the Victoria Secret and Abercrombie & Finch pictures and models. How lucky are we!
No, I don't like that billboard either. Those are the extremists that give us all a bad name. (My state doesn't allow billboards, thank goodness.)

Can teachers in public school teach about or even mention God?

Again, the freedom of expression thing. Where does that come from?

 

[Smoke]

Since you asked . . .
Almost everytime I turn on the TV I am assaulted with immorality. Through commercials, movies, sitcoms. I hear the Lord's name used commonly--disrespectfully constantly. Magazine covers, store window displays and to find a novel to read without cuss words--a challenge. Trying to choose a movie to rent that isn't R rated.
Yes, I can turn off the TV, never rent movies, stay out of the mall, never stand in a grocery store check out line, stay away from high school campuses, . . . and basically stay away from public and live on a deserted island. I suppose I do have that choice.

My own personal sense of modesty and decency is assaulted all the time. And I hate that I am becoming desensitized by it more and more.

So, you feel that people are imposing on you by not following your personal and religious standards? That when you go out in public or turn on the tv or watch a movie, you should find everyone behaving according to your wishes?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Did I say I was trying to get any of this closed or outlawed? No. I know it's legal, and it will stay legal. But I can hardly walk out the door or turn on anything electronic without being offended. We all have to live with stuff that we don't like, and I'd bet I have a lot more to put up with than you.

So... what course of action would you want, then?

I've yet to see a religious display at a mall, and any TV show that might promote Jesus is rare and easily avoided.

Really? We have the Knights of Columbus and the Salvation Army doing things in our malls all the time; they (or other religious groups) don't do promotion or fundraising at the mall where you are?

And at least here, the Federal government actually requires cable companies to carry certain channels in their "basic cable" package, including a few religious channels. It's actually illegal to have cable TV in Canada and not have Vision TV and CTS pumped into your home.

Yes, there are movies with other ratings, but not many and you still get to look at all the "lovely" pictures as you walk past.

Consumer products are market-driven. The only reason that there aren't many movies that you would want to see is that there isn't much of a market for them. The only reason that the "lovely" pictures you mention (what do you mean by that, BTW?) are there is because people buy them.

My church never puts up message boards, nor do I wear my religion on my sleeve, as they say. I don't even wear a cross, in case that offends you.

You listed your religion as LDS, so I'd be surprised if you told me that you did wear a cross.

Do you contribute to LDS missionary work?

I am really tired of the "just turn the channel" argument because it's often the commercials and previews that are the worst.

You can't change the channel during commercials?

Most commercials and previews I see have content that's geared toward the programming/film that they accompany. Are you actually getting Hooters commericals during the Backyardigans or something?

Several companies have tried to offer edited movies to rent, like the one's shown on airplanes, and Hollywood takes them to court. And the internet--don't get me started.

The writers, producers and directors take people to court when they modify their movies without their permission because the people who modify them don't have the legal right to do so. Partly, this is because they're protecting their right to their property, but also it's because that editing can ruin their films, and they care about the quality of their creation.

There's no law against making a "clean" version of a movie. There are laws against doing it without the agreement of the copyright holder. Come up with an edited version of a movie that the studio likes and/or back up a big enough dump truck full of money to their front door, and you can put out the sanitized version just about any movie you want.

And there are plenty of "safe surfing" internet filter packages available.

What I see here is a lot of complaint but very little actual civic involvement. Most government involvement seems more and more to lean away from the "religious right." So the throat-cramming complaint goes both ways.

What do you mean? How are any of the problems I listed before not "civic involvement"?

And how does "leaning away from the religious right" create a "throat-cramming complaint"?

 

[Starfish]

So, you feel that people are imposing on you by not following your personal and religious standards? That when you go out in public or turn on the tv or watch a movie, you should find everyone behaving according to your wishes?

I'm just saying it goes both ways.