Self-realization/Enlightenment question.

[Windwalker]

namaskaram :namaste



when one has reached the state of toal absorbtion one is meditating all the time , therefore no effort to meditate need be made

Yes, but technically, meditation is an exercise in opening the mind. Once it's open, you're no longer practicing an exercise. It's just open.

 

[Vinayaka]

Did Ramana continue to meditate? Did Ramakrishna? I'm not familiar with their biographies.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram :namaste

Yes, but technically, meditation is an exercise in opening the mind. Once it's open, you're no longer practicing an exercise. It's just open.

there may be a system of preliminary excercises that we call meditation , but the true meaning and object of meditation is "to think about" , "to ponder upon" , thus we first tame the mind then we fix the mind on god , .......having stilled the mind and having contemplated god , having gone beyond interlectual understanding and realised god , does one not take that realisation everywhere with one ?

then one is constantly meditating , constantly mindfull of god :bow:

 

[ratikala]

Yes, but technically, meditation is an exercise in opening the mind. Once it's open, you're no longer practicing an exercise. It's just open.

may I ask you a question ...... if meditation is just an excercise in opening the mind , what is one opening it to ?

having attained clearness of mind , what does one perceive ?

having attained vission what does one see ?

 

[ratikala]

Only person who is steady in Self should write a commentary and that too if he gets direct orders from God. But here most commentaries are written from intellectual level and hence cannot uplift you to nirvikalp samadhi. Feeling inspiration and thinking that I am getting inspiration is not enough says Sri Ramakrishna. God has to appear before you and order you to write commentary and give discourses.

similarly one who wishes to receive the wisdom of such comentaries should seek the blessing of god other wise one does no more than aquire knowledge that one canot be conversant with .

Same was with Sri Ramakrishna and Sri Ramana Maharshi. They never interacted with any one during sadhana days. Same was with Buddha bhagavan. Only after establishing themselves steadily in Brahman, and after order form God, they began to teach or preach.

:bow:

Some upadeshas are only for advanced seekers and not for laymen. What will happen to a person who has just started his spiritual journey, never experienced detachment and is in sarira bhava, if the upadesha is told that - 'Who is the one who is meditating' - It is a disaster waiting to happen. He may leave his puja-path, etc and do as he pleases.

the advanced practitioner has a mind prepaired , and is sufficently surrendered to benifit , a lay practitioner needs first to prepair the ground ,
so yes, I agree a puja path is infinatly more suitable ,
and to think oneself a proper vheicle for more advanced knowledge is certainly a disaster waiting to happen .

 

[Amrut]

To describe it in my words as I have experienced this, what occurs as that the object of this desire, call it heaven, call it God, dissolves into you. It is no longer you reaching, communing, listening, learning from God, but there is nothing rising in the mind any more, and you just open your eyes and see. You are finished meditating, but not in a returning to the seeker who started meditation, but awakened through meditation into the world, into reality. Every flame of the candles are a living soul, air generates light in every molecule, a bird sings and there is life in everything, silence surrounds all activity, etc.

Namaste, My pranams to you if you have these experience. It is truly divine.

Many people think of shift in consciousness as Enlightenment and think that 'it's game over'.

But this does not remain permanent and subsides through time, but you have seen the potential of who you are to be realized. And each time you meditate is a further lesson towards realizing this as you uncover subtler and subtler understandings of reality in yourself. Step by step.

there is nothing to be un-covered. You only need to abide in Self and your mind which keeps waking and drag you into reality will finally destroy. to keep thinking about karma and exploration will keep mind active. so the emphasis is to be talk about a termination point. To calm down. To talk about a point of no return. But this teaching is not for masses and hence lectures are not given keeping silence as center.

I do not negate what you say. I am talking about approach as I always ask the question WHY? Why this upadesha is given AND for Whom it is given. Which point needs to be stressed. So I do not deny anything that you say

I would say it is the same wetness experienced that is in every wave, but to have the mind embraced by That fully, is what is that Realization.

Well this is something that cannot described. but final state one is about negation of this world. Later only when mind is destroyed and God brings you down to lower plane, then you see everything else as brahman.

Aum

 

[Twilight]

Namaste everyone :namaste:

So many replies!

Thank you everyone. I will read and re-read along my journey.
I am feeling slightly out of my depth to carry on participating in the conversation but am hoping it carries on for as long as it needs to. There is so much wisdom being shared.

 

[Amrut]

I will go against the majority and say since enlightenment is a timeless state that we have initially forgotten I do believe it is indeed possible to "reforget" and fall back into time. To say the self realization can never be forgotten is technically true but it is mostly poetry. The memory of enlightenment is not enlightenment.

Not after mind is destroyed. do you ever forget that you are human.?

Adi Shankaracharya also indicates the state isn't permanent or there is a risk of being distracted:

Important Advaitic texts, such as Pañcadasi (e.g. Chapter 7 verses 125 - 127) and Vivekachudamani (e.g. verses 327 - 329) speak of the risk of being distracted or falling, but also assert that this is temporal and with remedy of return. ref

I disagree with the interpretation on this verses.

Verses 325-326 talks about folks who identify with the object universe. Beginning of 327 says there is nothing worse for a knower of Brahman. The next few verses go onto talk about people who practice concentration who deviate from there true nature who fall.

Verse 336 is very clear that it is talking about seekers not knowers of Brahman.

+1

vivek chudamani

327. Hence to the discriminating knower of Brahman there is no worse death than inadvertence with regard to concentration. But the man who is concentrated attains complete success. (Therefore) carefully concentrate thy mind (on Brahman).

It clearly says that one who has discriminative knowledge meaning information. He also instructs one to concentrate on brahman. So it warns that if you think that just by reading and gaining knowledge, who are one with brahman, then you are under false impression. Now since you know that you have to meditate on brahman and still if you are careless about it, then you may fall.

Although I'm a Hindu bhaktar, and occasionally have mystical events happen, I refuse to even try to make attempts at commenting on something that goes beyond the intellect. Generally it ends in argument, and since I know nothing at all, other than a few regurgitated words, it only adds fuel to the fire.

I do believe, however, that I have been in the presence of a few self-realised beings, and that true self-realised beings are incredibly rare.

+1 I agree

Aum

 

[Amrut]

Namaste ratikala ji,

I agree with the comments you make for my posts

Regarding comments that you are making indicates that you are talking from practical standpoint.

Not everybody can have 100 % surrender and can leave responsibility. So I understand and will not contradict it.

All I can say is that you can have moderation in everything. Everything in excess sis poison.

What Windwalker ji is suggesting is that meditation becomes effortless and that one no more needs to meditate. The triad of observer, object of object of observation and process of observation AND duality like (material knowledge and ignorance, good and bad, etc dissolve.

what remains is only the observer and that is just you, as pure consciousness, where there is no fear, then is ananda. This cannot be described and only maun has a capacity to express that state of atma-sthiti.

Aum

 

[Amrut]

Did Ramana continue to meditate? Did Ramakrishna? I'm not familiar with their biographies.

Namaste Vinakaya ji

Yes both of them after Self Realization did not meditate. However in case of Sri Ramakrishna, as he wanted to establish, by practice, that all faiths lead to same truth and that all paths are divine, he went on to meditate with different bhavas and different types of sadhanas.

But even he, after having darshan (vision) of Maa Kali, did not went to temple to perform puja.

Aum

 

[chinu]

Self realization means knowledge of self, so once attained it can't be lost. At least in this life.

Is there any difference for you between "Self realization" and "Enlightenment" ?

 

[Amrut]

I will go against the majority and say since enlightenment is a timeless state that we have initially forgotten I do believe it is indeed possible to "reforget" and fall back into time. To say the self realization can never be forgotten is technically true but it is mostly poetry. The memory of enlightenment is not enlightenment.

Not after mind is destroyed. do you ever forget that you are human.?

continued ...

Sri Ramana Maharshi and Sri Ramakrishna both confirmed it.

Logical reason:

you are told to leave everything and take refuge in God. If at all the state is not permanent, then why will you leave everything?

some examples to better understand.

1. Pot and or brick

When the pot is wet, one can break it and can again re-make it. It does not go as a waste

Wet pot is jiva who is not realized. Breaking and re-making symbolizes repetitions of birth and death

When the pot is fully fired. it changes colour and it's properties. Though both wet and fired pot looks same, they are not same.

difference is that the fire (Jnanagni) has changed the properties. If you break the fired pot or brick, it goes a sa waste, it can no more be re-used i.e. re-make is impossible.

similarly an enlightened soul when quits body does not return back to this transient world.

मामुपेत्य पुनर्जन्म दुःखालयमशाश्वतम्।
नाप्नुवन्ति महात्मानः संसिद्धिं परमां गताः।।8.15।।

8.15 As a result of reaching Me, the exalted ones who have attained the highest perfection do not get rebirth which is an abode of sorrows and which is impermanent.

source: Select Text | Gita Supersite 2.0 (Beta)

2. Burning corpse.

Once the corpse is burned, it turns into an ash. the process is irreversible.

--> (pseudo Ego)

3. burned rope

If you have a thick rope and if you burn it. (many cigarette / bidi vendors have this rope burning to light cigarette)

the rope after burning retains the shape, but is of no use.

though it looks like a rope, it is not a rope. you cannot tie anything with it.

4. Potato

A green potato if buried under soil will result into a potato tree

i.e. karma --> fruti --> cycle of birth and death

But a fried potato cannot transform into a potato tree.

5. Touching of sword by philosophers stone.

when a sword is touched philosopher's stone, it turn into gold. though it retains the shape, it looses it's basic properties, as gold is a soft material. It no more can be used to fight in battlefield.

Gold is not corrupted and remains clean for every. It is a noble metal --> eternal nature.

--> mind is destroyed

6. camphor

Camphor is used to clean dirty water. One mixes it in water in circular motion. After the dirt sticks onto camphor, it no more floats on water, but sinks to the bottom

7. Fire

A fire after burning a corpse will calm down and extinguish. So does the mind after merging into source does not remain alive. same is with mantra. A mantra after taking mind into source itself silences.

Aum

 

[nameless]

similarly an enlightened soul when quits body does not return back to this transient world.

he wont or he cant?

 

[chinu]

Soul cannot realize enlightment while in body, to gain enlightment its complusory to leave the body, but when soul leaves the body to realize enlightment the body remains alive because still the connection between body and soul remains in a way which is beyond the limits of language to describe.

Its somthing like.. one is working on a PC, and another time working on server computer, and while working on sever computer one can remain connected with PC too.
Similarly, one can remain conneted with body after leaving the body, leaving body is equal to sitting infront of server computer (One becomes omnipreasent)

An enlightened person leaves the body compleatly only at the time of his/her natural death.

 

[Windwalker]

namaskaram :namaste




there may be a system of preliminary excercises that we call meditation , but the true meaning and object of meditation is "to think about" , "to ponder upon" , thus we first tame the mind then we fix the mind on god , .......having stilled the mind and having contemplated god , having gone beyond interlectual understanding and realised god , does one not take that realisation everywhere with one ?

then one is constantly meditating , constantly mindfull of god :bow:

Yes. I do grant this is true. I recall some teacher once said to his student who told him he practiced meditation for hours every day, that he should quit practicing and actually start meditating.

 

[Amrut]

he wont or he cant?

Both

EDIT: Why should he?

Will you get Self Realized if you keep thinking about this world which you earlier called and later experienced as mithya and temporary.

however, there is an catch: One returns back if God brings him down for lok-kalyan (good of all). But one should meditate as if he is permanently leaving this world and merge into God, loosing his own identity.

 

[Amrut]

Yes. I do grant this is true. I recall some teacher once said to his student who told him he practiced meditation for hours every day, that he should quit practicing and actually start meditating.

Good one
Nice to meet you :bow:

 

[Windwalker]

there is nothing to be un-covered. You only need to abide in Self and your mind which keeps waking and drag you into reality will finally destroy. to keep thinking about karma and exploration will keep mind active. so the emphasis is to be talk about a termination point. To calm down.

Oh yes, this is true that to calm down is the means. But what is uncovered in the way I mean it is exposing the layers of who we are more and more deeply from the surface features we normally look at and identify with, through all those layers in a path toward discovering our true Identity.

All the while, at each stage of this path the center of gravity of who we identify ourselves as becomes more an more subtle until there is nothing but purity itself. Each movement inward is a path of purification of mind and intention. The vessel has to be prepared, and it is a constant process of emptying of one's "self" to expose what has always been who we are truly.

To talk about a point of no return. But this teaching is not for masses and hence lectures are not given keeping silence as center.

I think the goal is important, but we also need to realize that the goal is not the end, but the direction. In following that direction, we become who we are in our true Nature, as a plant growing through the earth and unfolding its blossoms like the lotus. Radiant, constant unfolding of that vital life that emanates from the divine in us. We simply need to get out of the way and allow. And in allowing, to become.

I do not negate what you say. I am talking about approach as I always ask the question WHY? Why this upadesha is given AND for Whom it is given. Which point needs to be stressed. So I do not deny anything that you say

I am also learning wisdom, and I often make an error of assuming because something I have learned in my path that has opened me, now that I know this everyone else will get it too! I don't call myself wise at this point.

I think there is a Buddhist teaching that says "When the student is ready the teacher will appear", and I believe that is true. I think to speak truths is fine, and words that I may have heard for years were there the whole time, but I could not see them as they were, glistening jewels in the sands of my mind. Yet as illumination happens, these words embedded in the mind begin to sparkle and glisten in the sunlight. We see them and pick them up, "Oh how beautiful. I never saw this before!', we exclaim to ourselves. I cannot begin to say how every day I find yet another one of these jewels as the angle of the sun catches yet another for me.

I think the wisdom of teachers is to know where a student themselves are at and to not put the cart before the horse for them. Some eager young student wishing to instantly transcend could damage themselves going within this way. They would be unprepared for what is exposed to them, having the worlds turned over. Are they ready? Are they stable enough in their minds to go there? Some people are not ready.

Every step on my path is always met with that question to myself.

Well this is something that cannot described. but final state one is about negation of this world. Later only when mind is destroyed and God brings you down to lower plane, then you see everything else as brahman.

Aum

I tend to see it more as a constant unfolding, an exposure of what is always there all along. It's not so much we shut out the world and find God, but we grow towards God, and at the same time deeper and deeper into God in this world which is the expression of the divine. It is that plant from the earth, unfolding into the world from the life-giving vitality that runs through all things. We become consciously aware of our Life.

 

[Sumit]

Is there any difference for you between "Self realization" and "Enlightenment" ?

Both are same.

 

[Amrut]

@Windwalker

To sum up

What you are saying is 'Sarvam Khalu-idam brahman'

And I am talking about 'Brahma-satyaa jagat mithyA' and 'Tat Tvam Asi'

Both are same. I think we are talking about same thing, only way of expression is different.

Swami Ramdas (Papa Ramdas) has said, either you either you negate your 'I' till it vanishes or you expand it so that it becomes universal and infinite.

One experiences everything is brahman and then experiences that the world is not existent and only 'I' i.e Brahman exists (ajAta vAda).

Or someone will experience nirvikalp samadhi (ajAta vAda) first i.e. no existence of this world and mAyA, and then everything you see is brahman.

In either ways one is free, order is not important. Which experience happens first depends upon prakruti.

Yes we have to allow things to happen - Thats true for both ways.

I tend to see it more as a constant unfolding, an exposure of what is always there all along. It's not so much we shut out the world and find God, but we grow towards God, and at the same time deeper and deeper into God in this world which is the expression of the divine.

What you say is mostly happens to a Yogi, but it's not only that Yogis experience the same thing.

As mind becomes purified and more subtle (sukshma) one will have different experiences. Everything that is experienced is in mAyA, so even constant unfolding is also under mAyA, changless, formless, without attribute is supreme brahman.

But as I have said, negation of this world is not the only way and one can be one with God as you say

After realization, what you say that ' this is beautiful' as if you are looking for first time is also said by Swami Sukhbodhananda, mostly in Shiva Sutras.

So when destination and so the result is same, we can peacefully end this, else in the name of the one which is 'not expressible' we will keep expressing.

I hope you do not mind ending here.

Nice talking to you.

Aum