Servants - yes or no?

[Draka]

would you be happy with cleaning someone else's toilets for minimum wage or less?

how about working in a factory for $2/day?

A minimum wage job is a minimum wage job. If someone agrees to that pay then there is really no issue. As for being paid less than that or the ridiculous $2/day factory work ... what on earth do they have to do with the price of tomatoes in Japan?

How many times must you be told by people that they either don't have or would not have, or haven't had issue with working as a housekeeper or the like? There are those of us here who have either worked as such or would have no problems working as such, or even are interested in finding such work, that have told you that those jobs aren't that bad at all. There are those here who are by no means "lazy" "Richie-Rich" "spoiled" types who have admitted to also employing servants such as housekeepers and gardeners and so on. They are not whip-cracking slave-drivers lazing about on their butts thinking they are better than others and should have people wait on them hand and foot. They are hardworking, busy people who have simply decided to take a little off their plates by employing others to do certain chores for them. They lessen their load AND provide employment for others.

All in all, get off your high horse because if anyone is acting like they are better than anyone else here, if anyone is looking down their nose at anyone else here, it is you. You sit in judgement of others, content in your stereotypes and generalization, with your haughtier than thou attitude like you are so much wiser and better than anyone else because YOU see having servants as a travesty, a wrong to be righted, and YOU are the better and more enlightened person for seeing this "truth" you have concocted in your head. Get over yourself.

 

[s2a]

If you really think about it, anyone who has an employee for any reason could consider that employee a servant. That would mean that we are all servants in one way or another.

You may be channeling Bob Dylan and not realize as much

 

[nnmartin]

I wouldn't pay someone minimum wage to clean my toilet. And I wouldn't run a factory employing anyone working for less than a living wage.

ok, but how about the people that do run these factories and pay very low wages.

what do you think of them?

 

[nnmartin]

If you really think about it, anyone who has an employee for any reason could consider that employee a servant. That would mean that we are all servants in one way or another.

unfortunately that is a tired old yawn that is way past it's bed time.

A completely facile analogy that has no place in this thread.

 

[nnmartin]

A minimum wage job is a minimum wage job. If someone agrees to that pay then there is really no issue. As for being paid less than that or the ridiculous $2/day factory work ... what on earth do they have to do with the price of tomatoes in Japan?

quite a lot actually - why do you think we live nice comfortable lives in the West?

partly because of sweat-shop labour in the 3rd World.

They are hardworking, busy people who have simply decided to take a little off their plates by employing others to do certain chores for them. They lessen their load AND provide employment for others.

just like I provide food and employment for my slave.

 

[Draka]

quite a lot actually - why do you think we live nice comfortable lives in the West?

partly because of sweat-shop labour in the 3rd World.



just like I provide food and employment for my slave.

Sweat shop labor has nothing to do with working as a housekeeper/maid nor employing one.

One does not provide employment for a slave. One owns a slave. They have no choice and they do not get paid nor any freedom (I don't believe I'm having to explain this on yet another thread). So, again, this has nothing to do with employing a servant.

Oh, and just loving that out of everything I said in that post the only things you can bring yourself to respond to are those little snippets. :sarcastic

 

[Draka]

nnmartin

 

[InsurgoInsurgiInsurrect]

If I need a landscaper, or gardener, or housekeeper, and someone wants to apply for that job, and we agree on a mutually beneficial arrangement, and I treat that person with respect and honesty and appreciation, how on earth is that in violation of the Golden Rule?

Because you are not both negotiating from a platform of equal ground.

If you both made the same cash and had similar living situations than your argument makes sense otherwise its just feudalism. However you want to rationalize it.

And there are quite a few ways. (I have a landscaper but I rationalize it would cost me the same to do his job plus my time and he because of whole sale discounts can get the materials cheaper and thus do the job for free labor but the guy he sends to work on my lawn is making $10 an hour...)

So I have to ask myself... do I think $10 an hour is a fair wage? Its better than minimum so I can start rationalizing yeah... But for the same cost I could just do it myself but then what about my lawn guy? Is he now making $0 an hour?

This problem is more complex than you probably realize. Whether or not I treat my landscape guy with respect seems to miss the point entirely but does help in rationalization.

 

[Pegg]

Have you not heard of the Silver Rule - it is very similar to the Wiccan Rede and Biblical code.

'do not do to others what you don't wish done to yourself' - or words to that effect.

that is the opposite to the 'golden' rule that Jesus highlighted.

He said to DO to others what you want done to yourself.

This encourages positive actions/expression to go forth from oneself first.

 

[nnmartin]

Oh, and just loving that out of everything I said in that post the only things you can bring yourself to respond to are those little snippets. :sarcastic

why should I bother to respond to your emotional ranting?

It has little to do with the subject at hand.

Martin is far too mighty to involve himself in pointless personal analysis

 

[Draka]

why should I bother to respond to your emotional ranting?

It has little to do with the subject at hand.

Martin is far too mighty to involve himself in pointless personal analysis

You'd like for it to be emotional ranting, but it wasn't. It was just calling it honestly. You have clearly decided not to listen to anyone who has any counter-points to your ridiculous assertions. You have effectively shoved your fingers in your ears and hummed your way through this entire thread. You have concocted a "truth" in your own head that only you see and because of that you have put yourself on a pedestal above everyone else. With every post you come off as condescending and haughty.

 

[nnmartin]

Well, someone has to attack the hypocrisy, lies and self-serving ego brigade.

I am happy to do so.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, someone has to attack the hypocrisy, lies and self-serving ego brigade.
I am happy to do so.

Like a snake eating its own tail?


Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!

 

[nnmartin]

perhaps...

 

[Kathryn]

ok, but how about the people that do run these factories and pay very low wages.

what do you think of them?

I think that I am only responsible for living my life and treating others as I want to be treated - and voting my conscience.

I try to steer clear of generalizations when I'm assessing the character of others.

 

[Kathryn]

Because you are not both negotiating from a platform of equal ground.

If you both made the same cash and had similar living situations than your argument makes sense otherwise its just feudalism. However you want to rationalize it.

LOL I didn't know I was a feudal lord. When did I get that promotion? I must have missed the whole "inherit the kingdom" bit, because I've worked very hard all my life for the lifestyle I enjoy now. No one ever GAVE me anything I own. (Unless you count a few pieces of jewelry from my husband, but even then I've earned those!)

And the guys that do my yardwork work hard for their money as well. I appreciate that and don't consider their prices to be exorbitant, even though it does cost me more to pay them than it does for me to do my own yard.

And there are quite a few ways. (I have a landscaper but I rationalize it would cost me the same to do his job plus my time and he because of whole sale discounts can get the materials cheaper and thus do the job for free labor but the guy he sends to work on my lawn is making $10 an hour...)

So I have to ask myself... do I think $10 an hour is a fair wage? Its better than minimum so I can start rationalizing yeah... But for the same cost I could just do it myself but then what about my lawn guy? Is he now making $0 an hour?

LOL, I don't know about where you live, but where I live, no landscaper would work for nothing.

I don't set their prices - they do.

This problem is more complex than you probably realize. Whether or not I treat my landscape guy with respect seems to miss the point entirely but does help in rationalization.

I disagree. Mutual respect is an important element of successful business transactions. If I don't treat my landscaper with respect, he won't do work for me in the future. HASSLE. I need him.

And he needs me. So he treats me with respect.

It's a win -win scenario.

 

[nnmartin]

LOL I didn't know I was a feudal lord.

It would be a feudal Lady - methinks.

Queen Kathryn perhaps?...

 

[LongGe123]

It's impressive how long this debate has gone on - but I think it's probably because martin refuses to see any reasoning that is put before him. The way I see it, this issue is pretty simple - the service industry cannot just be swept away because it is a key source of employment for tens of thousands of people. Second, abuse of ones position as a receiver of services is a separate issue and cannot be used as an argument to abolish it. As Kathryn has pointed out on numerous occasions, there's no reason you can't be served in some way and treat the person with respect. Martin's idea that all servants are downtrodden and ill-treated is total nonsense. The people who do treat others that way deserve to be scolded and snubbed, and they're just total tools, but that's no reason to deny the rest of us the luxury that the service industry provides.

As for the whole "ego-trip" angle - I have to profoundly disagree here too. IMO the main reason people would hire domestic workers or other "servants" would be for time and energy saving reasons. If we are successful and have lots of money, we can use it to make our lives easier. At the same time we can provide people with fair and equitable employment. Now, if I pay my domestic workers a fair wage, and treat them with the dignity and respect they deserve, what possible reason do you have for telling me I'm "wrong" to hire them?

 

[ChristineES]

You may be channeling Bob Dylan and not realize as much

Oh, wow! I must be. I forgot all about that song "You Gotta Serve Somebody"- Bob Zimmerman (Dylan) has a lot of wisdom.

 

[ChristineES]

unfortunately that is a tired old yawn that is way past it's bed time.

A completely facile analogy that has no place in this thread.

Well, EXCUSE ME. :faint:My opinion is as valid as yours.

What I said is the truth- servants who work as housekeepers, butlers, landscaping, etc. are employees. They get paid at least minimum wage (legally) and that is the same or as close as the same as someone who works at McDonald's. When a person works, they work for another person who pays them. Do you think a maid or a janitor or whatever is less valuable than a VP of some company? If they didn't have people who clean up at office buildings, the VP would be cleaning the toilets in the rest room him or herself, wouldn't he or she? That makes the cleaning crew pretty important, wouldn't you say? But the point is, the VP still has to answer to someone else- A CEO or a President of the company or the stockholders or whatever. That makes them servants.