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Servants - yes or no?

LongGe123

Active Member
No. No one should make you feel guilty. Frankly if you are not angry and disgusted than you just haven't been paying attention.
Some minor Examples:
[youtube]16K6m3Ua2nw[/youtube]
The most honest three and a half minutes of television, EVER... - YouTube
[youtube]Irw7SRv-l44[/youtube]
North Korean film exposes Western propaganda - Part 9 of 10 - YouTube
But if you are doing well and are effectively distracted enough to be enjoying your life than why care about anything else? Enjoy life and you should probably read up on Ayn
Rand as I feel like your thought line is closely mirrored by hers.

Are you implying that I don't know enough about the world or something? Are you actually suggesting that my last defence reveals that I am a do-nothing layabout who doesn't care about what's going on in the world? And what exactly do you think YOU know? Perhaps you know just the things you watch in videos on Youtube.

FYI, I've been to North Korea, and actively donate to LiNK (Liberty in North Korea), and have even applied to work for them. I also engage in DPRK-related debates on a weekly basis with a collection of DPRK apologists I know in Beijing. What on earth gives you the right to presume you know ANYTHING about what I care about or know about? That's utterly ridiculous. How dare you.

Ayn Rand? Are you high? I'm a fervent Social Democrat! Why would I listen to a word SHE said? And another thing - if I'm enjoying my life, it's because I do have some knowledge of what else is going on in the world and I consider myself lucky to be free of the mess. But how then do you link that to me being either indifferent or ignorant? Ridiculous.
 
Are you implying that I don't know enough about the world or something?

No.. I assume I do not know enough about the world but I do not discount the fact that you might know more about the "world" than I do.

Are you actually suggesting that my last defence reveals that I am a do-nothing layabout who doesn't care about what's going on in the world?

Is that what I said? I said "Frankly if you are not angry and disgusted than you just haven't been paying attention."

And what exactly do you think YOU know? Perhaps you know just the things you watch in videos on Youtube.

That would seem illogical but where are you going with this rant?

FYI, I've been to North Korea, and actively donate to LiNK (Liberty in North Korea), and have even applied to work for them. I also engage in DPRK-related debates on a weekly basis with a collection of DPRK apologists I know in Beijing. What on earth gives you the right to presume you know ANYTHING about what I care about or know about? That's utterly ridiculous. How dare you.

Wow... Oh I dare. At this point you are just trapped in rage and posting what I presume to be things you assume and could rationalize which is nothing but a point of view you have not really disclosed and seems to have nothing to do with what I have been talking about.

But you keep on keeping on. You create and argue with whatever nonsensical strawman arguments your little heart desires.

In case you are sane when you read this I will add this: Hiring servants is not more acceptable if you have visited North Korea nor is donating money to LiNK make having servants more ok than not donating to LiNK. My argument has nothing to do with who you donate to or why. The idea that I contribute funds to whatever organization and have visited north korea therefore I can employ a woman I respect and pay well to do work I would rather not do myself but can afford to have others do for me is not substantiated. Its not logical. Its just silly.

You don't even seem to comprehend my perspective but instead have created a fantasy version of my argument and have become emotionally invested in attacking a figment of your imagination. One plausible reason for your irrational response that comes to mind is that you are deep down personally conflicted and don't want to deal with that.

Deal with what you want when you want mate but if you want to argue with me than try to figure out what all those ASCII characters mean in English and come at me with that.
 

Mr. Skittles

Active Member
And for hard working rich people.
And for middle & upper middle class people.

Eh...I am middle class. I own a house and a 3 car garage. I work hard so I can own these things. I mow my own lawn and paint my house. I also clean my house and my garage I look at things based on finances. I am a penny pincher so I think in terms of the less cash I am shelling out the more in my bank account.

Now the exception to the rule is if you have donald trump money and have a house that is thousands of square feet then sure I can see a person having a servant but it you live in a cul de sac and have a 1 or 2 story house that is maybe a few hundred of square feet then wh get a servant?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Eh...I am middle class. I own a house and a 3 car garage. I work hard so I can own these things. I mow my own lawn and paint my house. I also clean my house and my garage I look at things based on finances. I am a penny pincher so I think in terms of the less cash I am shelling out the more in my bank account.
One does what one wants, & hires out the rest.

Now the exception to the rule is if you have donald trump money and have a house that is thousands of square feet then sure I can see a person having a servant but it you live in a cul de sac and have a 1 or 2 story house that is maybe a few hundred of square feet then wh get a servant?
Some people in modest homes don't like mowing, cleaning, or snow shoveling.
So they hire it out. We don't have to all like or dislike the same things.
 

Wirey

Fartist
It's a personal thing. Compared to most people, I'm pretty well off, but I do most things myself. Except carpentry. Man, I hate that crap. Other than that, I prefer to do it myself.
 

LongGe123

Active Member
In case you are sane when you read this I will add this: Hiring servants is not more acceptable if you have visited North Korea nor is donating money to LiNK make having servants more ok than not donating to LiNK. My argument has nothing to do with who you donate to or why. The idea that I contribute funds to whatever organization and have visited north korea therefore I can employ a woman I respect and pay well to do work I would rather not do myself but can afford to have others do for me is not substantiated. Its not logical. Its just silly.

I WASN'T linking the two things, I was pointing out to you that I am not some ignorant who knows nothing and thus is content with my own life. It is YOU who have made the link there. Talk about strawman arguments. Why don't you drop the patronizing tone, I'm not a child. It's a bit rich that you would come at me with that kind of turd speech without actually addressing any point.

If you want to comprehend someone else's point of view, then comprehend this. There is NOTHING inherently wrong with hiring someone to do work, whatever the work might be, pay them a fair wage for it, and treat them with respect. There isn't a single possible argument against that. If you want to fight against ill treatment of workers, or exploitation, then go ahead, I'll support you. But you can't label everyone who hires domestic workers as the same thing. That's hogwash.

You don't even seem to comprehend my perspective but instead have created a fantasy version of my argument and have become emotionally invested in attacking a figment of your imagination. One plausible reason for your irrational response that comes to mind is that you are deep down personally conflicted and don't want to deal with that.

Wasn't your argument against the hiring of domestic workers? What more do I need to know? IMO, there are NO arguments against hiring people to do a job. I believe in respect and fairness, what's wrong with that? I never treat my domestic workers as inferior to myself, because they're not. I pay them well, and give bonuses for a job well done. Where's the inherent evil there?

Your view that "if you are not outraged, then you don't know enough", is based on what? Why do we all need to be so outraged all the time? Don't you think that life is too short to be so outraged at everything? The world will never be completely right, there'll always be something to rant and rave about. But does not getting in a big huff about the world mean we don't care? Does it mean we can't still actively help? Of course not. I do what I can to help people, and as an individual I'm not sure what else I can do. Why should I accept being called evil or immoral? Why should I stand by and let people like you dub it some kind of insecure childish justification with no merit. I could very well say that your attack on my situation constitutes an even more childish and immature streak on your part!
 

Mr. Skittles

Active Member
One does what one wants, & hires out the rest.


Some people in modest homes don't like mowing, cleaning, or snow shoveling.
So they hire it out. We don't have to all like or dislike the same things.

Your right....Ok ok let me change my position and say that its just lazy people......lol
 
I WASN'T linking the two things, I was pointing out to you that I am not some ignorant who knows nothing and thus is content with my own life. It is YOU who have made the link there. Talk about strawman arguments. Why don't you drop the patronizing tone, I'm not a child. It's a bit rich that you would come at me with that kind of turd speech without actually addressing any point.

You missed the point but that doesn't seem to be new but also you claim not not be content because you are not ignorant while simultaneous claiming in the same post that we should be ignorant and content because there will always be something to rant and rave about.

Why do we all need to be so outraged all the time? Don't you think that life is too short to be so outraged at everything? The world will never be completely right, there'll always be something to rant and rave about.

If you want to comprehend someone else's point of view, then comprehend this. There is NOTHING inherently wrong with hiring someone to do work, whatever the work might be, pay them a fair wage for it, and treat them with respect. There isn't a single possible argument against that.

There have actually been several presented in this thread that you have either glossed over and ignored in lieu of just stating there nothing wrong with hiring someone to do work. I have myself presented a few in this thread such as the doorman and the housekeeper.

If you want to fight against ill treatment of workers, or exploitation, then go ahead, I'll support you. But you can't label everyone who hires domestic workers as the same thing. That's hogwash.

Isn't that just a generalization of my statement?

Wasn't your argument against the hiring of domestic workers? What more do I need to know? IMO, there are NO arguments against hiring people to do a job. I believe in respect and fairness, what's wrong with that? I never treat my domestic workers as inferior to myself, because they're not.

You can not by definition pay them equally to what you earn which means you can not treat the work they do as equal in value to the work you do. Your statement is logically false.

I pay them well, and give bonuses for a job well done. Where's the inherent evil there?

I have presented a few thought experiments to reason out why. The door man, 10 people on an island where 9 work to serve 1 while also providing for themselves. Its not something someone can just tell you in my opinion. you have to take the time to figure it out for yourself.

But does not getting in a big huff about the world mean we don't care? Does it mean we can't still actively help? Of course not. I do what I can to help people, and as an individual I'm not sure what else I can do. Why should I accept being called evil or immoral? Why should I stand by and let people like you dub it some kind of insecure childish justification with no merit. I could very well say that your attack on my situation constitutes an even more childish and immature streak on your part!

Did I call you evil or immoral?

I said

The idea that some people should be entitled to luxury at the expense of others for whatever reason is something many will rationalize in detail but is obviously wrong.

There are actually circumstances where some should enjoy luxury at the expense of others and that could be right.

You seem to be emotionally tied up and unable to comprehend my posts in this thread but I will try an easy american example.

If you hire a maid for 5 years while she is going to school to get a job which offers her healthcare and a retirement plan than that is probably a good thing right? You are helping her get to the same level of wealth you currently have and attain the same status you enjoy. (Like most Au pair services - you pay them, house them, let them use your car and pay for their education AND you treat them with respect.)

If on the other hand you hire a maid and treat her with respect for 15 years and pay her well but don't offer her a retirement plan, workers comp, paid vacation days or health care and neither do the other 12 families she works for then aren't they exploiting her inability to find a better job for their personal benefit? (What is she gets sick or someday wants to retire or her hands break down from doing manual labor every day and she is unable to work...)

In one instance you have a servant and its helpful and in the second you have a servant and you are enabling and taking advantage of someone who is basically a forever second class citizen. The situation has recently become exasperated by having a limited number of jobs and a very poor lower education system and a higher education system that is basically financially not feasible for most of america. 50% of americans own 1% of its wealth.

Its a complicated situation. Most people that work at walmart suffer the same fate and your argument seems to be well I pay them better than walmart and treat them better to boot so therefore I am doing something good for these people. My answer to that is more nuanced than you paint it and indeed just as some people might benefit from working at walmart or as a maid some people may not and may end up exploited.
 
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LongGe123

Active Member
None of these things are tantamount to such an overhaul of the system as proposed by the OP.

The issues you are bringing up are valid ones. But IMO the flaws come in the many assumptions that you make. Of course it's unjust that so few people control so much wealth. I agree whole-heartedly with that, but that's not what this thread is really about. So, I'll leave that one, I believe that a more regulated (but not planned) economy can help remedy this situation, including ideas on a salary cap and whatnot. But I think that discussion is for another thread.

With regard to your point on hiring domestic workers. I think you're marrying the public and private elements in such a way as to create a kind of smokescreen as to what's really going on. I come from the UK, so we already have a decent system of social welfare in place. If I hire a domestic worker, I don't need to offer health plans or education plans because the national framework in place already offers this to everyone. I realize this might sound like a cop-out, since it doesn't apply everywhere, so I won't leave it at that.

I don't consider myself to be a conservative person, but sometimes I do think that elements of Thatcherism and conservatism dwell within my soul, perhaps because my entire family is conservative so there is some unshakable influence they cast over me when I was growing up. Anyway, the point I'm making is that I truly believe in people realizing their own potential when they have the opportunity to. And saying that every member of a certain part of society definitely has no such opportunity is a fallacy in my mind. On the other hand there certainly are people that don't, and so it comes down to the state to provide the framework to provide for those who are unable to provide a decent-enough standard of living for themselves. This being the case, private enterprises, from a legal standpoint, can't be so demonized for not providing such comprehensive benefit to all its workforce.

That sounds weird. Even I think so now that I've written it. It's the social democrat side of me coming out and saying NO! Let me try and make it more relevant to what you were saying. The assumption you make is that the employer is hiring the domestic worker full-time. This is actually more often not the case. The person hiring the domestic worker is not the one who should be demonized for a system where people are unable to make better their situation in life. What you seem to be saying is that I should be either outraged or guilty (? maybe) that I hire someone but don't provide healthcare, retirement plan and whatnot, because in doing so I am perpetuating a system that keeps downtrodden citizens as "second class".

This is the sentiment that I cannot accept. The way I see it, it's not down to me, but down to the state to provide that framework of social welfare. Therefore, I don't see the inherent wrong in hiring people to do a job you want done if you're compensating them financially and with whatever else. I know in Beijing, people with full-time domestic workers usually also provide accomodation, particularly if that worker is from outside Beijing. On that level, if the worker is paid and treated with decency and respect, then on that level the employer is doing everything they are obligated to do.

Your argument on the other hand is taking the employer to the level that IMO should be occupied by a much grander presence, IE the state. In addition, I don't think it's right or fair that you use words like "take advantage", because you're implying that all people who hire others are harbouring sinister motives, a kind of sincere disdain or a desire to keep people downtrodden. This is something I simply do not accept. I come from a middle class family that has been an employer since the 1970s. We provided workers with a decent wage, food and where it was required, accommodation. In your mind, we were exploiting these people for our own benefit. But in my mind, we were performing an exchange --- money and benefit for goods and/or services --- oldest exchange in the world.

Finally, I think we can drop the bizarre personal attacks on each other. I doubt we know anywhere near enough about each other to start making below-the-belt jibes as we have been. I apologize for any of that and any offence I might have caused. I AM a somewhat defensive individual --- in my mind it comes from growing up as the youngest in my family. If you're the youngest too you might understand how utterly frustrating it can be, always being talked to as the "baby", when in fact you're the only child with a stable job and income, the most mature and the most independent. Sigh...I'll save that rant for another thread. Anywho, let's carry on this discussion without the poking and jibing. I apologize again for my part in that.
 
Your argument on the other hand is taking the employer to the level that IMO should be occupied by a much grander presence, IE the state. In addition, I don't think it's right or fair that you use words like "take advantage", because you're implying that all people who hire others are harbouring sinister motives, a kind of sincere disdain or a desire to keep people downtrodden. This is something I simply do not accept. I come from a middle class family that has been an employer since the 1970s. We provided workers with a decent wage, food and where it was required, accommodation. In your mind, we were exploiting these people for our own benefit. But in my mind, we were performing an exchange --- money and benefit for goods and/or services --- oldest exchange in the world.

I think I explained my nuanced view and almost all states in the US have no obligation to provide healthcare... There are a few bright spots but for the most part that is pipe dream. People are trying to survive and definitely some people hiring them are helping them out but its not fixing the systemic problem. That is what I am driving at. Your idea that we can't get up in arms about everything because something will always be wrong seems silly in this instance as I see something that is wrong that everyone should be incredibly angry about. I can fast path to a doctor in front of bleeding to death peons because I have healthcare. Am I smarter than them? More important? No... I just have insurance... therefore I am prioritized... My wife is having issues with a baby latching on? BOOM! Lactation Consultant and she will visit not just my room but my house. My neighbor who says she is still in pain and has no idea if her baby will latch and had a C section is headed home after day 1 because why? (My wife is kept for 6 days standard) How can people not see what is actually happening here... I'm not calling you out as you seemingly don't live in America but just stating what I see as obvious.

Finally, I think we can drop the bizarre personal attacks on each other. I doubt we know anywhere near enough about each other to start making below-the-belt jibes as we have been. I apologize for any of that and any offence I might have caused. I AM a somewhat defensive individual --- in my mind it comes from growing up as the youngest in my family. If you're the youngest too you might understand how utterly frustrating it can be, always being talked to as the "baby", when in fact you're the only child with a stable job and income, the most mature and the most independent. Sigh...I'll save that rant for another thread. Anywho, let's carry on this discussion without the poking and jibing. I apologize again for my part in that.

I don't think I have ever resorted to personally attacking you. Sorry if you you see things that way. When I see injustice I try to make others see the injustice as I see them.
 

LongGe123

Active Member
Right but still it doesn't address the OP which is that people who hire others to do jobs they don't want to do are doing something inherently immoral. This is the aspect I think is just putting negative spin on something perfectly innocent.

As for "getting in a rage" - I draw a distinction between what you're actually talking about, and the wording in quotation marks here. Simply getting angry is never enough, and will be painted as mindless agression or even worse....terrorism (although that was more a feature of Bush's era). It's one thing to take affirmative action on things, and another simply to be enraged about them. IMO, calmly and collectedly taking the appropriate action proves an excellent move in the long term.

A fleeting glance at the history of British democracy affirms this idea. Now, I'm not saying our development was perfect, but it was a good model of stable, incremental democratization which created a fair and moral system over time --- "evolutionary democracy" --- and proved crucial to the nation's development as a whole. The country never descended into revolution during that period, much to our long-term benefit, and the government was run calmly yet firmly, and in the end we got much better lives.

Of course you are correct that creating employment does not fix the systemic problems of wealth inequality and prejudice based on social standing and status. But, private individuals cannot be witchhunted and demonized as in the OP, since it is down to the state to create a framework in which people can sustain a decent standard of living, and regardless of misfortune will always be able to live well enough. No batch of people is entirely perfect, and that's why the world always ends up kind of crappy in places, even after so-called "revolutions" sweep away the old and bring fresh new hope to a region. Human nature eventually takes its majestic course...sigh...

I think there are threads on healthcare in the US --- it is certainly something we Europeans scratch our heads about, since it's an absolutely non-controversial issue in many countries here. As Tony Benn put it, "As non-controversial as votes for women!"
 

LongGe123

Active Member
I don't think I have ever resorted to personally attacking you. Sorry if you you see things that way. When I see injustice I try to make others see the injustice as I see them.

Merely thinly veiled (and misinterpreted) jibes at my maturity, knowledge and mental security. And yet, now, water under the bridge. The important thing is that we maintain a good debate.
 
Right but still it doesn't address the OP which is that people who hire others to do jobs they don't want to do are doing something inherently immoral. This is the aspect I think is just putting negative spin on something perfectly innocent.

As for "getting in a rage" - I draw a distinction between what you're actually talking about, and the wording in quotation marks here. Simply getting angry is never enough, and will be painted as mindless agression or even worse....terrorism (although that was more a feature of Bush's era). It's one thing to take affirmative action on things, and another simply to be enraged about them. IMO, calmly and collectedly taking the appropriate action proves an excellent move in the long term.

A fleeting glance at the history of British democracy affirms this idea. Now, I'm not saying our development was perfect, but it was a good model of stable, incremental democratization which created a fair and moral system over time --- "evolutionary democracy" --- and proved crucial to the nation's development as a whole. The country never descended into revolution during that period, much to our long-term benefit, and the government was run calmly yet firmly, and in the end we got much better lives.

Of course you are correct that creating employment does not fix the systemic problems of wealth inequality and prejudice based on social standing and status. But, private individuals cannot be witchhunted and demonized as in the OP, since it is down to the state to create a framework in which people can sustain a decent standard of living, and regardless of misfortune will always be able to live well enough. No batch of people is entirely perfect, and that's why the world always ends up kind of crappy in places, even after so-called "revolutions" sweep away the old and bring fresh new hope to a region. Human nature eventually takes its majestic course...sigh...

I think there are threads on healthcare in the US --- it is certainly something we Europeans scratch our heads about, since it's an absolutely non-controversial issue in many countries here. As Tony Benn put it, "As non-controversial as votes for women!"

So simplify it and forget the nation or laws. Think about what you are arguing. If 10 people exist and 1 person was wealthy and employed 4 people and provided a means for them to have their needs and wants met that those 4 should then have the remaining 5 serve them since those 5 are not lucky or capable enough to serve the 1. (Or simply not needed) When you really boil the system down to 10 people on a desert Island I think people can clearly see whats wrong as compared to when millions are involved and people are more readily able to venerate some while villainizing others and can clearly see how that helps them rationalize how they envision the injustice that is plainly visible but always seemingly easily explained away.
 

LongGe123

Active Member
So simplify it and forget the nation or laws. Think about what you are arguing. If 10 people exist and 1 person was wealthy and employed 4 people and provided a means for them to have their needs and wants met that those 4 should then have the remaining 5 serve them since those 5 are not lucky or capable enough to serve the 1. (Or simply not needed) When you really boil the system down to 10 people on a desert Island I think people can clearly see whats wrong as compared to when millions are involved and people are more readily able to venerate some while villainizing others and can clearly see how that helps them rationalize how they envision the injustice that is plainly visible but always seemingly easily explained away.

So if that's how you see things, what do you propose?
 

LongGe123

Active Member
The question also must be asked - why the leap in logic? Why must the remaining 5 be made to serve the 4? You're over-simplifying the problem, and making too many assumptions. At least, that's how I see it.
 
The question also must be asked - why the leap in logic? Why must the remaining 5 be made to serve the 4? You're over-simplifying the problem, and making too many assumptions. At least, that's how I see it.

That is the right question. Its not my assumption though its how america works right now. (And actually just 5 of 10 is unrealistic and optimistic.)

You might see this as oversimplifying while missing the point that now you are actually seeing what is going on and asking the right questions. I'm not making a whole lot of assumptions here as the financial state of the US and its people is pretty much an open book...
 

LongGe123

Active Member
Indeed. But generalizing all employers as the problem is inaccurate and unfair. And also, regarding the post above the one I made last...

What do you propose we do?
 
Indeed. But generalizing all employers as the problem is inaccurate and unfair. And also, regarding the post above the one I made last...

What do you propose we do?

I thought we concluded you were not from america but what do we do is not an impossible question.

Lawrence Lessig: How Money Corrupts Congress and a Plan to Stop It - The Long Now

Is one recent example.

Let me level set america politics in a few sentences... The Senators and Congressmen are not the best and brightest of us americans but they are the elected officials to represent america. Their number one concern is to be re-elected and to be re-elected they need money. So they spend 30-70% of their time on average shaking hands, chit chatting and trying to get money to fund their next campaign... Who funds that process? Its not the people of america but rather corporations, pacs and superpacs...

So your senator is not taking paper bags full of money to put in their office safe anymore but is now working to get re-elected and to defeat their opponent who might be sponsored by a super-pac.... In the last month before re-election maybe his opponents super pacs drops a few million in advertising which is proven to drastically influence public opinion without a public response in kind which the senator has neither the time or funds to do so... The senator sees this as an issue and befriends a superpac to get insurance that should this happen they will step in and provide last minute funds to counteract . How do they secure such insurance? But supporting some large percentage of the superpacs chart of issues they will pay to defend.

This is not at first glance an issue but if you think about it your government of the people, by the people and for the people has been subverted to a government of the pacs that finance reelection and that employ lobbyists to influence and help government officials so long as it serves their interests...

What to do to solve that is not hard. Its really off topic but I just don't see your question as a stump question. If you were asking rather than how do we morally employ people as servants then I would say work with everyone else that employs your servants and insure they have a retirement plan, health care and that working for you for 15 years is not a death sentence if they contract cancer or some other debilitating disease and even if they don't and grow old healthy than they know they can retire based on the retirement plan you provided for them.

Even if you don't do that you can insure they are being educated to provide for themselves later and are not full time dedicating themselves to you and their clients while neglecting investment in themselves and ultimately spending their lives as a permanent second class citizen.

Treating people with respect is not something that justifies anything or that should be rewarded... It is the expectation.
 
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