Setting The Bible Reader Straight

[Shaul]

Oh brother, here we go. All of your so called objections are nonsuch and have been rebutted before. Simply put you are just regurgitating long since debunked pablum.

More to the point you are simply displaying openly your own baseless hostility towards scripture. It is actually pretty sad.

 

[3rdAngel]

What it comes down to is that Bible readers aren't about to go sifting through Christian apologetics to see who has an acceptable explanation for every Biblical anomaly they come across, but instead they're typically willing to take as true just about everything they read. So, is what Bibles are telling the reader about hares true or not? If not why not? Obviously no Bible has gone to the trouble of explaining why a modern word is used to describe an outdated concept, each with very different meanings, but instead these Bibles are content to mislead the reader. Hares chew cud and bats are birds. But why? Why doesn't god (it is His book after all) care that he's misleading the reader? OR, perhaps it's that those in charge of informing Christians don't care. Those who print Bibles an those who use them to sell their brand of Christianity.

In any case, regardless of the reasons, these Bibles remain in error about what they're telling their readers.

Bats are not birds
Hares do not chew cud
Grasshoppers walk on six legs
Mustard seeds are not the smallest of all seeds
​

Nonsense! All your doing is repeating yourself without addressing any of the content in the posts provided to you that show why you are in error. You have been shown why your claims are in error in posts posts # 16; post # 17; post # 18 and post # 19. Your response is to ignore these posts and run away and will not address the posts shared with you that show why your claims are in error. I guess for you it is hard to see what you do not want to. All you have done is shown why God's Word is true and for this we thank you .

 

[Skwim]

Clearly you do. In fact, you seem curiously addicted to bible-bashing. The overall effect is somewhere between sad and underwhming as in: poor guy, he's at it again.

I could say that it saddens me that so many people are so incredibly needful that they will buy into the most unreasonable guff, but it doesn't. That so many people leave themselves open to accept just about anything their gurus tell them, and then unthinkingly repeat it as fact is what interests me. That and their reasoning, or more precisely, their lack thereof, which is why I posed the thread I did here. Just what will they come up with to explain away these four errors. And, who, out of apparent lack of ability, will feel forced to resort to ad hom attacks.

.

 

[3rdAngel]

A bit of searching in the Bible Gateway would prove how wrong you are. But. You wouldn't believe it anyway-- it'd be a complete waste of time.

Your claims in red....

1. The earth is flat - Isaiah 24:1 and Matthew 4:8

Let's look at your scripture proofs...

ISAIAH 24:1 [1], Behold, the LORD makes the earth empty, and makes it waste, and turns it upside down, and scatters abroad the inhabitants thereof.

MATTHEW 4:8 [8], Again, the devil takes him up into an exceeding high mountain, and shows him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them.

Which says the earth is flat????? Yep ZERO; NONE; ZILCH; UNO; NISTICA; NULA; NUL; NUNADA; μηδέν; số không; 不存在

One down..

2. The earth doesn't move - Chronicles 16:30

1 Chronicles 16:27-33 [27], Glory and honor are in his presence; strength and gladness are in his place.
[28], Give to the LORD, you kindreds of the people, give to the LORD glory and strength. [29], Give to the LORD the glory due to his name: bring an offering, and come before him: worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness. [30], Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved. [31], Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice: and let men say among the nations, The LORD reigns. [32], Let the sea roar, and the fullness thereof: let the fields rejoice, and all that is therein. [33], Then shall the trees of the wood sing out at the presence of the LORD, because he comes to judge the earth.

Added some more text and context for you. Which one says that the earth does not move????
Yep ZERO; NONE; ZILCH; UNO; NISTICA; NULA; NUL; NUNADA; μηδέν; số không; 不存在

Two down..

3. The earth rests on pillars - 1 Samuel 2:28

1 Samuel 2:28 [28], And did I choose him out of all the tribes of Israel to be my priest, to offer on my altar, to burn incense, to wear an ephod before me? and did I give to the house of your father all the offerings made by fire of the children of Israel?

Where does it say the earth rests on pillars??? Yep ZERO; NONE; ZILCH; UNO; NISTICA; NULA; NUL; NUNADA; μηδέν; số không; 不存在

Three down..

4. The sun goes round the earth - Joshua 10:13

Joshua 10:13 [13], And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves on their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the middle of heaven, and hurried not to go down about a whole day.

Where does it say the sun goes around the earth??? Yep ZERO; NONE; ZILCH; UNO; NISTICA; NULA; NUL; NUNADA; μηδέν; số không; 不存在

Four down..

5. The stars are lights set in a dome over the earth - Genesis 1:16-17

Genesis 1:16-17 [16], And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. [17], And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light on the earth.

Where does it say the stars are lights set in a dome over the earth??? Yep ZERO; NONE; ZILCH; UNO; NISTICA; NULA; NUL; NUNADA; μηδέν; số không; 不存在

5 down..... DEBUNKED!

Thankyou for your help in proving the scriptures true

 

[3rdAngel]

I could say that it saddens me that so many people are so incredibly needful that they will buy into the most unreasonable guff, but it doesn't. That so many people leave themselves open to accept just about anything their gurus tell them, and then unthinkingly repeat it as fact is what interests me. That and their reasoning, or more precisely, their lack thereof, which is why I posed the thread I did here. Just what will they come up with to explain away these four errors. And, who, out of apparent lack of ability, will feel forced to resort to ad hom attacks.

What saddens me is that people are just trying to help you but you cannot see it. So you close your eyes and ears to anything that does not agree with you and that shows why you maybe in error. Perhaps it is time to examine yourself and what it is you believe?

 

[Salvador]

Oh you mean like in Genesis where god talks about dry land.

Genesis 1:10
God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
​

.

The English Standard Version translation of the Bible reads differently than the New International Version English translation of Genesis 1:10, which reads as follows:

"God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good. "

Even if we were to accept poorly translated verses of the English language version of the Bible that'd read as scientifically inaccurate claims; according to the religion followed by me, Swedenborgianism, the first five books of the Bible are not meant to be taken so literally. The books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy are neither historic accounts nor scientific hypothesis,; however, they contain metaphors or mythological story tales, these scriptures have significant spiritual meanings as understood by Emanuel Swedenbor

Many of the world’s population believe that this book called the Bible is actually the Word of God. Whether you believe this or not, there's no denying the power of the Bible’s influence around the globe—in both good and bad ways. Emanuel Swedenborg’s spiritual experiences and resulting philosophies reveal deeper, spiritual messages contained within the Bible. Throughout his writings, Swedenborg takes what many consider to be a book of outdated moral lessons and turns them into modern, timeless messages of love and hope for people of all genders, races, and religions.

On our own we know nothing of heavenly and spiritual affairs, so we learn about them from divine revelation, which is the Word. —Secrets of Heaven

There's biblical revelation of every era of humanity that Swedenborg described in his writings. From the beginning of the human race, which was very close to heaven and had direct communication with God, all the way to the eighteenth century, when Swedenborg was writing.
By that point in human history, much evil had been done in the name of God and religion. Swedenborg said the revelation for our modern era is a new understanding of the true meaning of scripture. As portrayed in this animated excerpt from True Christianity, Swedenborg actually had a defining vision for a new spiritual mindset for humanity.

Immediately after experiencing this life-changing vision, Swedenborg then had an interaction with an angel who explained how he should explore the hidden meanings of the Bible to learn and share the truths about the Lord.

From that point on it became Swedenborg’s mission to study the literal words within the Bible to uncover the internal sense of the Word of God.

Swedenborg became so passionate about his new mission that his first and largest title, called Secrets of Heaven, was a verse-by-verse exposition on the books of Genesis and Exodus.

It is characteristic of the Word’s style that there is something holy in every statement, even in every word, even at times in the letters themselves; so the Word unites us to the Lord and opens heaven…The Word fills us with good desires that come from love and truths that lead to wisdom, provided we read it with the help of the Lord and not just on our own. It fills our will with good desires that come from love and fills our understanding with truths that lead to wisdom. As a result, we gain life by means of the Word. —Sacred Scripture

Swedenborg was so diligent in his explorations of the Bible that he discovered the many times things are paired together over and over again, and he even offered an explanation for the dualities of the Bible.

Swedenborg says these things are paired together purposefully to symbolize the union of the heart (love) and the mind (wisdom) as one. It’s a powerful revelation that serves as the basis for Swedenborg’s theory about the Bible’s main message.

There are three different types of narratives Swedenborg described within each book of the Bible from Genesis to Revelations:
Genesis 1-11: Fictional narratives that are full of symbolic lessons

Rest of Old Testament: Historical and prophetical content with meaning that’s both concealed and unconcealed

New Testament: Historical stories of Jesus’s life that have concealed internal meaning

Essentially, Swedenborg says that even through all the violent and vengeful words of the Bible, the hidden message is about love for the Lord and others. He says that even the Ten Commandments convey this internal meaning and significance

If God wanted to provide us with a printed form of communication to last for eternity, then why would he obscure its true meaning behind complex symbolism? Why wouldn’t the text just mean exactly what it says? Curtis Childs of the Swedenborg Foundation well-explains Swedenborg’s philosophy about how divine concepts require earthly containers like the Bible and introduces an animated excerpt from Sacred Scripture to explain the concept further.

We can tell from this that in its literal meaning the Word is really the Word. There is spirit and life within; the spiritual meaning is its spirit and the heavenly meaning is its life. This is what the Lord said: “The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life” (John 6:63). The Lord said his words to the world and said them in their earthly meaning. Apart from the earthly meaning, which is the literal meaning, the spiritual and heavenly meanings are not the Word; [without it] they are like a spirit and life without a body—and like a palace that has no foundation to rest on. —Sacred Scripture 39

We can see an example of Swedenborg’s philosophy about literal v. internal through his interpretation of the prophesy about Egypt, Israel, and Assyria becoming one. Swedenborg says that the prophesy represents scholarly study, rational thinking, and spirituality become one—and is the future of science and spirituality working together for the best of humanity.

The Word in Heaven
Indeed, without the Word no one would know anything about the Lord, about love and faith, redemption, or any of the other secrets of heavenly wisdom. In fact, without the Word there would not be a heaven, just as in the world there would not be a church without the Word —The Word of the Lord 14

Swedenborg says the Bible does exist in heaven, but the Word in the spiritual world or afterlife is not the same as the word in the physical world or earth. Spirits and angels have an almost immediate revelation or understanding of the deepest spiritual sense of the Word in heaven so there’s no need for historical narratives and metaphors. In fact, there are different levels of understanding the Word amongst angels depending on the level of heaven they occupy. Chara Daum, a translator for the New Century Edition, explains how angels understand the Bible on different levels.

There are five excerpts from Swedenborg’s writings shedding some more light on the differences between the literal and spiritual meanings of the Word. Throughout his writings, Swedenborg reveals how the Bible is more of a spiritual tour of heaven than a book of moral instructions.

The inner meaning gives the Lord’s Word life. That meaning is like a soul whose body is the superficial sense. The case resembles that with human beings; when our body dies—when we join the angels—our soul comes alive, and when our soul lives, we no longer know anything of bodily affairs. By the same token, we no longer know what the literal meaning of the Word is, only what its soul is. —Secrets of Heaven 1143

Enlightenment

If you believe there’s both a literal and internal sense of the Word, you can gain access to the deeper level of understanding. According to Swedenborg, it’s possible to connect with the Word even if you have never read the Bible, are not Christian, and have never followed his teachings on the internal sense.

Swedenborg says the way to connect with the Bible’s spiritual message is to live it—or practice what you preach.
You can be connected to the spiritual Word simply by living a life of love because love for the Lord and others is the core message of the Bible.

In his mercy the Lord accepts and saves anyone anywhere on the globe who has lived a good life, because goodness itself is what accepts truth. A good life is the actual soil in which seed, or truth, is planted. An evil life positively does not accept the seed.—Secrets of Heaven 2590

 

[whirlingmerc]

These are really trifling exceptions to take with the text, in my opinion. I understand that they are mistakes/errors, yes, but that should be expected since the writers were ignorant of a crap-ton of things... as we are likely ignorant of a crap-ton of things even now.

The same sort of thing will be seen in some of our writings of today, I would imagine, when people of future generations are reading some of our texts. Particularly medical or psychological information, if I had to guess at some of the things we're currently not producing "the best" documentation of.

In the end, it just points to the idea that you should NEVER point at a written text and expect it to "stand the test of time" or claim that it is "perfect." That is just a dumb idea that is held by people willing to portray themselves as dumb.[/QUOTE

The Bible is true in the sense of the literature. We have many figures of speech and they may imply a rule of thumb or an estimate. Wooden literalism isn't necessarily the correct way to take the Bible. Best to look at the context and how listeners would understand it.

But the faith was central to the point being made, not the seed.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Your claims in red....

1. The earth is flat - Isaiah 24:1 and Matthew 4:8

Let's look at your scripture proofs...

ISAIAH 24:1 [1], Behold, the LORD makes the earth empty, and makes it waste, and turns it upside down, and scatters abroad the inhabitants thereof.

MATTHEW 4:8 [8], Again, the devil takes him up into an exceeding high mountain, and shows him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them.

Which says the earth is flat????? Yep ZERO; NONE; ZILCH; UNO; NISTICA; NULA; NUL; NUNADA; μηδέν; số không; 不存在

One down..

2. The earth doesn't move - Chronicles 16:30

1 Chronicles 16:27-33 [27], Glory and honor are in his presence; strength and gladness are in his place.
[28], Give to the LORD, you kindreds of the people, give to the LORD glory and strength. [29], Give to the LORD the glory due to his name: bring an offering, and come before him: worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness. [30], Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved. [31], Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice: and let men say among the nations, The LORD reigns. [32], Let the sea roar, and the fullness thereof: let the fields rejoice, and all that is therein. [33], Then shall the trees of the wood sing out at the presence of the LORD, because he comes to judge the earth.

Added some more text and context for you. Which one says that the earth does not move????
Yep ZERO; NONE; ZILCH; UNO; NISTICA; NULA; NUL; NUNADA; μηδέν; số không; 不存在

Two down..

3. The earth rests on pillars - 1 Samuel 2:28

1 Samuel 2:28 [28], And did I choose him out of all the tribes of Israel to be my priest, to offer on my altar, to burn incense, to wear an ephod before me? and did I give to the house of your father all the offerings made by fire of the children of Israel?

Where does it say the earth rests on pillars??? Yep ZERO; NONE; ZILCH; UNO; NISTICA; NULA; NUL; NUNADA; μηδέν; số không; 不存在

Three down..

4. The sun goes round the earth - Joshua 10:13

Joshua 10:13 [13], And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves on their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the middle of heaven, and hurried not to go down about a whole day.

Where does it say the sun goes around the earth??? Yep ZERO; NONE; ZILCH; UNO; NISTICA; NULA; NUL; NUNADA; μηδέν; số không; 不存在

Four down..

5. The stars are lights set in a dome over the earth - Genesis 1:16-17

Genesis 1:16-17 [16], And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. [17], And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light on the earth.

Where does it say the stars are lights set in a dome over the earth??? Yep ZERO; NONE; ZILCH; UNO; NISTICA; NULA; NUL; NUNADA; μηδέν; số không; 不存在

5 down..... DEBUNKED!

Thankyou for your help in proving the scriptures true

Sorry, but I see that you failed geometry in high school. On a spherical Earth only a small fraction of it can be seen from the highest mountain. But on a Flat Earth one could see all of it. The Matthew verses tell usthat the Earth is flat.

 

[Salvador]

Sorry, but I see that you failed geometry in high school. On a spherical Earth only a small fraction of it can be seen from the highest mountain. But on a Flat Earth one could see all of it. The Matthew verses tell usthat the Earth is flat.

Theoretically, a person could see approximately 140,000 square miles from the top of Mt. Everest on perfectly clear day, with perfect vision and without any obstacles.

Source reference: https://www.quora.com/If-the-view-w...-the-horizon-before-the-Earths-curve-hides-it

 

[sojourner]

Nonsense. Your making this up. The Hebrew word used for firmament or sky in GENESIS 1:8 is H7579 רקיע; râqı̂ya‛ From H7554; the meaning is properly an expanse, that is, the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky: - firmament

Check again. The meaning is “a hammered bowl.”

Nonsense. Who said the earth stopped. No one your reading into the scriptures something it does not say so your argument is a mute point

If the sun appeared to stop in the sky, the earth would necessarily have to have stopped turning.

Sure it does. The poster was claiming science knows more than God and that the created has more knowledge than then the creator

No the poster is claiming that science knows more than the biblical writers, and that modern humanity has more knowledge of science than the ancients.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Theoretically, a person could see approximately 140,000 square miles from the top of Mt. Everest on perfectly clear day, with perfect vision and without any obstacles.

Source reference: https://www.quora.com/If-the-view-w...-the-horizon-before-the-Earths-curve-hides-it

Thanks, that is less than one tenth of a percent of the Earth's surface.

 

[3rdAngel]

Sorry, but I see that you failed geometry in high school. On a spherical Earth only a small fraction of it can be seen from the highest mountain. But on a Flat Earth one could see all of it. The Matthew verses tell usthat the Earth is flat.

Not at all. I see you have failed history and geography. Nothing in the scripture you or your friend have provided says the earth is flat. That is your assumption. The scripture only says he was taken to the highest part of a mountain and shown the kingdoms of the world. During Jesus’ time on earth (28–30 CE), the Roman Empire was at its prime, covering all of the known world at that time, from Lusitania (ie, Portugal) and North Africa in the west to Mesopotamia (ie, Iraq) in the east, including Judea, which, for nearly a century, had lain under the mastery of Rome, as well as Gaul (ie, France), Greece and Egypt, the both of them having lost their own renowned empires long before the Roman Republic. How this was shown to JESUS is not recorded.

Hope this helps

 

[3rdAngel]

Check again. The meaning is “a hammered bowl.”

No need I already provided you the correct Hebrew word and definitions the first time. The Hebrew word used for firmament or sky in GENESIS 1:8 is H7579 רקיע; râqı̂ya‛ From H7554; the meaning is properly an expanse, that is, the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky: - firmament. Seems you do not believe it.

If the sun appeared to stop in the sky, the earth would necessarily have to have stopped turning.

If God made the world according to the scriptures. What makes you think God cannot control what happens in it?

No the poster is claiming that science knows more than the biblical writers, and that modern humanity has more knowledge of science than the ancients.

Depends if you believe God's Word is the Word of God. Seems you do not despite claiming that you do.

 

[Salvador]

Thanks, that is less than one tenth of a percent of the Earth's surface.

Not at all. I see you have failed history and geography. Nothing in the scripture you or your friend have provided says the earth is flat. That is your assumption. The scripture only says he was taken to the highest part of a mountain and shown the kingdoms of the world. During Jesus’ time on earth (28–30 CE), the Roman Empire was at its prime, covering all of the known world at that time, from Lusitania (ie, Portugal) and North Africa in the west to Mesopotamia (ie, Iraq) in the east, including Judea, which, for nearly a century, had lain under the mastery of Rome, as well as Gaul (ie, France), Greece and Egypt, the both of them having lost their own renowned empires long before the Roman Republic. How this was shown to JESUS is not recorded.

Hope this helps

So then, atop the Earth's highest mountain with the most ideal viewing conditions, almost 99.9 percent of the Earth's surface could not be seen by a human being. I'm guessing the territorial size of the Roman empire in the First Century had amounted to somewhere around a couple million square miles; hence, territory far less than 10 percent the size of the Roman Empire's territory could've even been possibly seen atop the world's tallest mountain.

 

[3rdAngel]

So then, atop the Earth's highest mountain with the most ideal viewing conditions, almost 99.9 percent of the Earth's surface could not be seen by a human being. I'm guessing the territorial size of the Roman empire in the First Century had amounted to somewhere around a couple million square miles; hence, territory far less than 10 percent the size of the Roman Empire's territory could've even been possibly seen atop the world's tallest mountain.

That was the known kingdoms of the earth at that time. You did not read what you were responding to did you

 

[Salvador]

That was the known kingdoms of the earth at that time. You did not read what you were responding to did you

I was looking at your map, which showed me the Roman Empire. ...

 

[Subduction Zone]

Not at all. I see you have failed history and geography. Nothing in the scripture you or your friend have provided says the earth is flat. That is your assumption. The scripture only says he was taken to the highest part of a mountain and shown the kingdoms of the world. During Jesus’ time on earth (28–30 CE), the Roman Empire was at its prime, covering all of the known world at that time, from Lusitania (ie, Portugal) and North Africa in the west to Mesopotamia (ie, Iraq) in the east, including Judea, which, for nearly a century, had lain under the mastery of Rome, as well as Gaul (ie, France), Greece and Egypt, the both of them having lost their own renowned empires long before the Roman Republic. How this was shown to JESUS is not recorded.

Hope this helps

And once again you failed at geometry and geography. Even from the top of Everest you would see less than one tenth of a percent of the Earth's surface area. Nowhere near even the redefined world that you tried to use. That verse only applies to a flat Earth. Then of course there is the "circle of the Earth" verse which is even worse for you in its original Hebrew. That can only describe a flat Earth.

Try again.

Edit: Ironically you even claimed in effect that Jesus was not God and only cared about the small part of the world he knew of. Either way you end up losing this argument.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Your claims in red....

1. The earth is flat - Isaiah 24:1 and Matthew 4:8

Let's look at your scripture proofs...

ISAIAH 24:1 [1], Behold, the LORD makes the earth empty, and makes it waste, and turns it upside down, and scatters abroad the inhabitants thereof.

MATTHEW 4:8 [8], Again, the devil takes him up into an exceeding high mountain, and shows him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them.

Which says the earth is flat????? Yep ZERO; NONE; ZILCH; UNO; NISTICA; NULA; NUL; NUNADA; μηδέν; số không; 不存在

One down...

Nope. Mathematically-speaking? You cannot see the entire surface from a high place on a ball/sphere-- Matthew only works, if the world is flat.

YOU LOSE. BIGLY. Since that seems to be the character of your "argument"?

A big "Is not" repeated with your fingers firmly in your ears? I will simply ignore the remainder, as being of the same nonsense.

 

[YoursTrue]

I’ll address these first two together. Genesis calls the sky raqiya. Raqiya literally means a hammered out bowl. If a bowl were placed over the earth as a sky-cover, geometry tells us that the earth would have to be disc-shaped in order to be covered by this bowl. Hence, Genesis infers a flat earth.

If this bowl were indeed hammered out, as the terminology explicitly states, it would need to be rigid. Hence, the rigid dome of the biblical sky.

...

No, it doesn't. There is nothing to conclude from that statement that the earth was thought of as flat.

 

[YoursTrue]

Nope. Mathematically-speaking? You cannot see the entire surface from a high place on a ball/sphere-- Matthew only works, if the world is flat.

YOU LOSE. BIGLY. Since that seems to be the character of your "argument"?

A big "Is not" repeated with your fingers firmly in your ears? I will simply ignore the remainder, as being of the same nonsense.

There are some things that are poetic, or metaphorical in expression. There are other things in the Bible that are written as figurative and not literal.