stvdv
Veteran Member
You forget to mention here that "this is your opinion"
Strange enough you do declare "that Biblical God has opinions"
At least "Biblical God" seems to be humble, having an opinion
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Sex before marriage?????
- Thread starter Riders
- Start date
Strange enough you do declare "that Biblical God has opinions"
At least "Biblical God" seems to be humble, having an opinion
stvdv
Veteran Member
Yes, I agree there is a lot of guesswork about the "Historical Jesus"
So I am a bit confused that you have a picture of the gravestone of the Father of Jesus?
arthra
Baha'i
Baha'is do not endorse sexual relations outside marriage... As to dating and socializing that's up to the people involved. They are free to choose a prospective mate. Baha'i marriage requires the consent of the living parents of the prospective bride and groom.
Read more about Baha'i marriage at
Marriage, Bahá'í
stvdv
Veteran Member
Very good one. I just can't believe that people try to prove the Bible by using Bible verses. That makes no sense at all.
This looks like bootstrapping. Pull yourself up using your own boots. I never saw that happen
For example, there can be more important things to do, like spread the Gospel.
There is little doubt he existed as a person. Just not the person depicted in the bible.
Some stories depict him as a terrorist, and anarchist. Some have him as a zealot and member of the fourth philosophy and the sicarii assassin's
Hebrew scriptures tell us the father of Jesus was a roman soldier of greek decent named Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera. His gravestone was found in Bingerbrück, Germany.
Typical circular reasoning "the bible is.... Because the bible says so"
stvdv
Veteran Member
Oooooooooooooooh. I thought you meant "Father of Jesus" picture ... God. Above makes a little
more sense, coming from the ChristineM I "know"
ecco
Veteran Member
You imply that we folks don't do our homework. I take that to mean you have.
Do any of those books show any writing from the time Jesus was alive? I have never heard of any except thoroughly falsified claims that the Gospels were first-hand accounts.
Well, rather than await your response, I went and looked at "The Historical Jesus," by scholar Dr. Gary Habermas; on Amazon.
Here is an excerpt from the Conclusion:
The disciples sincerely believed that Jesus rose from the dead and had appeared to them.
...
...
This argument has proven effective. For one thing it makes the conversation more interesting for the skeptics who probably thought we were going to say, “The Bible says it, I believe it.
...
...
This argument has proven effective. For one thing it makes the conversation more interesting for the skeptics who probably thought we were going to say, “The Bible says it, I believe it.
Problem #1. There is no contemporaneous evidence recording what the disciples said, believed or saw. A controversial preacher is crucified, buried, and returns to life. At that time no one writes a single word about it. So, no. The arument has not proven to be effective.
Problem #2. The condescending, self-serving comment about skeptics. No skeptic expects apologists to make that spurious argument.
Habermas is just preaching to the choir. He makes his living preaching and writing about Jesus' Ressurection. It isn't skeptics spending money on his books (except those that read them to counter his "arguments").
The core problem with the Resurrection
Now compare this story to the Resurrection of Jesus. Our earliest written accounts of Jesus’ Resurrection (1) were written only by Christian evangelists, (2) were compiled 20-70 years after the events they describe, (3) are so old they cannot be confirmed by physical evidence from the time, (4) come from a superstituous age of many similar mystery cults, (3) are internally contradictory, (4) and are contradictory between sources, too.
We have much better evidence than that for the angel Moroni’s revelation to Joseph Smith, the Hindu milk miracle of 1995, visitation by space aliens, the dancing sun at Fatima, and many other modern phenomena. And yet most Christians do not believe those were genuine events.
Why not? After all, the evidence is much better for these than for the ancient Resurrection of Jesus!
Now compare this story to the Resurrection of Jesus. Our earliest written accounts of Jesus’ Resurrection (1) were written only by Christian evangelists, (2) were compiled 20-70 years after the events they describe, (3) are so old they cannot be confirmed by physical evidence from the time, (4) come from a superstituous age of many similar mystery cults, (3) are internally contradictory, (4) and are contradictory between sources, too.
We have much better evidence than that for the angel Moroni’s revelation to Joseph Smith, the Hindu milk miracle of 1995, visitation by space aliens, the dancing sun at Fatima, and many other modern phenomena. And yet most Christians do not believe those were genuine events.
Why not? After all, the evidence is much better for these than for the ancient Resurrection of Jesus!
ecco
Veteran Member
You are Italian/American and your grandmother was betrothed at age 7? I am aware of that practice in Italy. But at age 7??
My apologies about your Vulcan comment. I was not aware of that occurring.
Oops! I just read Aupmanyav's post. It seems I've gotten posts from two different people completely conflated.
My humblest apologies to both.
ecco
Veteran Member
Please see my post #190.
ecco
Veteran Member
You are a funny man, or maybe you are serious.
So do you think there will be sex in hell? There might be thinking about it but there won’t be any doing it.
So, in addition to everything else, you also have intimate knowledge of Hell. How do you do it?
ecco
Veteran Member
Then it isn’t orgasm, unless you know something I don’t know.
More accurately, I should have stated orgasm can be brought about with no physical stimulation whatsoever.
ecco
Veteran Member
Most children learn to take secular teaching with a grain of salt at an early age. Especially those children who attend secular schools but come from very religious parents. Parents who instill into those children that secular teachings are wrong if they conflict with religious teachings.
Who ever tells children that the Sunday School instructers are untrustworthy?
"We have a curriculum in our Sunday Schools, Auxiliary meetings, Seminary and Institute classes." Indoctrination.
"We also encourage daily personal study." - More indoctrination.
My grandparents came to the US as adolescents in the early 1900s when their parents died. I don't know how they met.
ecco
Veteran Member
So, it's not that "The scriptures teach that we are to come to know the truths of the Gospel and related principles for ourselves." You read scriptures. You discuss scriptures, You come to a group consensus on what the scriptures mean. That is not coming to know the truth yourself.
When you were younger, you were influenced into how to interpret scriptural verses. When you got older, you became one of the influencers.
ecco
Veteran Member
As much as you try to avoid it, people like Warren Jeffs hold closer to the original practices than people like Mitt Romney. Your comment chooses to ignore your distant and not so distant history.
Your religion has done little to solve the world's problems.
ecco
Veteran Member
Is that a response you got from studying scripture or a response provided by elders?
ecco
Veteran Member
You said, "The teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ are eternal and unchanging" and "Both the New Testament and the Book of Mormon (Golden Plates) contain the same teachings and Gospel". If they are the same, why were the Golden Plates even necessary?
Is this what your understanding is:
Golden plates - Wikipedia
Translating the plates
See also: Life of Joseph Smith from 1827 to 1830
Smith said that the plates were engraved in an unknown language, and he told associates that he was capable of reading and translating them.[100] The translation took place mainly in Harmony, Pennsylvania (now Oakland Township), Emma's hometown, where Smith and his wife had moved in October 1827 with financial assistance from a prominent, though superstitious, Palmyra landowner Martin Harris.[101]The translation occurred in two phases: the first, from December 1827 to June 1828, during which Smith transcribed some of the characters and then dictated 116 manuscript pages to Harris, which were lost. The second phase began sporadically in early 1829 and then in earnest in April 1829 with the arrival of Oliver Cowdery, a schoolteacher who volunteered to serve as Smith's full-time scribe. In June 1829, Smith and Cowdery moved to Fayette, New York, completing the translation early the following month.
A 21st-century artistic representation of Joseph Smith translating the golden plates by examining a seer stone in his hat.
Smith used scribes to write the words he said were a translation of the golden plates, dictating the words while peering into seer stones, which he said allowed him to see the translation. Smith's translation process evolved from of his previous use of seer stones in treasure-seeking.[102] During the earliest phase of translation, Smith said he used what he called Urim and Thummim, two stones set in a frame like a set of large spectacles.[103] Witnesses said Smith placed the Urim and Thummim in his hat while he was translating.[104]
After the loss of the first 116 manuscript pages, Smith translated with a single seer stone, which some sources say he had previously used in treasure-seeking.[105] Smith placed the stone in a hat, buried his face in it to eliminate all outside light, and peered into the stone to see the words of the translation.[106] A few times during the translation, a curtain or blanket was raised between Smith and his scribe or between the living area and the area where Smith and his scribe worked.[107]Sometimes, Smith dictated to Harris from upstairs or from a different room.[108]
Smith's translation did not require the use of the plates themselves.[109] Though Smith himself said very little about the translation process, his friends and family said that as he looked into the stone, the written translation of the ancient script appeared to him in English.[110] There are several proposed explanations for how Smith composed his translation. In the 19th century, the most common explanation was that he copied the work from a manuscript written by Solomon Spaulding.[111] That theory is repudiated by Smith's preeminent modern biographers.[112] The most prominent modern theory is that Smith composed the translation in response to the provincial opinions of his time,[113]perhaps while in a magical trance-like state.[114] As a matter of faith, Latter Day Saints generally view the translation process as either an automatic process of transcribing text written within the stone[115] or an intuitive translation by Smith, assisted by a mystical connection with God, through the stone.[116]
Translating the plates
See also: Life of Joseph Smith from 1827 to 1830
Smith said that the plates were engraved in an unknown language, and he told associates that he was capable of reading and translating them.[100] The translation took place mainly in Harmony, Pennsylvania (now Oakland Township), Emma's hometown, where Smith and his wife had moved in October 1827 with financial assistance from a prominent, though superstitious, Palmyra landowner Martin Harris.[101]The translation occurred in two phases: the first, from December 1827 to June 1828, during which Smith transcribed some of the characters and then dictated 116 manuscript pages to Harris, which were lost. The second phase began sporadically in early 1829 and then in earnest in April 1829 with the arrival of Oliver Cowdery, a schoolteacher who volunteered to serve as Smith's full-time scribe. In June 1829, Smith and Cowdery moved to Fayette, New York, completing the translation early the following month.
A 21st-century artistic representation of Joseph Smith translating the golden plates by examining a seer stone in his hat.
Smith used scribes to write the words he said were a translation of the golden plates, dictating the words while peering into seer stones, which he said allowed him to see the translation. Smith's translation process evolved from of his previous use of seer stones in treasure-seeking.[102] During the earliest phase of translation, Smith said he used what he called Urim and Thummim, two stones set in a frame like a set of large spectacles.[103] Witnesses said Smith placed the Urim and Thummim in his hat while he was translating.[104]
After the loss of the first 116 manuscript pages, Smith translated with a single seer stone, which some sources say he had previously used in treasure-seeking.[105] Smith placed the stone in a hat, buried his face in it to eliminate all outside light, and peered into the stone to see the words of the translation.[106] A few times during the translation, a curtain or blanket was raised between Smith and his scribe or between the living area and the area where Smith and his scribe worked.[107]Sometimes, Smith dictated to Harris from upstairs or from a different room.[108]
Smith's translation did not require the use of the plates themselves.[109] Though Smith himself said very little about the translation process, his friends and family said that as he looked into the stone, the written translation of the ancient script appeared to him in English.[110] There are several proposed explanations for how Smith composed his translation. In the 19th century, the most common explanation was that he copied the work from a manuscript written by Solomon Spaulding.[111] That theory is repudiated by Smith's preeminent modern biographers.[112] The most prominent modern theory is that Smith composed the translation in response to the provincial opinions of his time,[113]perhaps while in a magical trance-like state.[114] As a matter of faith, Latter Day Saints generally view the translation process as either an automatic process of transcribing text written within the stone[115] or an intuitive translation by Smith, assisted by a mystical connection with God, through the stone.[116]
ecco
Veteran Member
No, it really isn't.
There are many grand religious edifices in the world. Who gave the money for their construction to the religious leaders?
Who instructs their children into the same religious beliefs that they have?
Actually, it is religions that hammers people down. Perhaps LDS does not preach guilt, sin, and redemption. Many religions do.
The media tries to spread the truth. In counties where the media has been diminished, it is the central government that disseminates information. Do you know that most Chinese under age 20 have no idea what happened in Tiananmen square?
Secularism has eliminated smallpox, landed men on the moon, discovered the origins of humankind, etc, etc, etc.
When people make bigoted, racist, homophobic, xenophobic comments, they should be called bigoted, racist, homophobic, xenophobic.