Sexual Abuse in religion

[mikkel_the_dane]

Abuse by police get close. For those who were raised to have a strong faith in God, where security is tied to their faith, it is a new level of upheaval when abuse is tied to a belief system.

Have you ever heard about the children's homes in Rumania?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I think there is something unique with religion here - it is a higher form of betrayal trauma.

Imagine being abused at home, but having strong faith and turning to prayer for comfort.

Now imagine abuse that comes from "God's servants" - no prayer for comfort, it is a betrayal of faith and belief in God in addition to betrayal of your physical body.

My experience involves kids abused by a high priest in the Mormon faith - abused for years and years and years. Authorities knew about this high priest - it ended his first marriage, and the first wife was blamed. They sealed him in the temple again telling lies to 2nd wife, and this guy was given support groups by untrained volunteers that were supposed to help - if wife just says their prayers, reads their scriptures, goes to the temple, everything should be fine - taught to fogive 70X70 - his work finally turned him in, hard-drives full of child porn - 18 years of videos he made on just one thumb drive. Through these years he served in bishopric, served overseeing children, served as high priest in many capacities while everyone knew about his problems - had faith in their predator support groups - his wife served as relief society president - was considered faithful for enduring well. He is in jail, they are still sealed for all eternity, and she is considered a good and faithful godfearing wife for it. In religious beliefs - you are rewarded for turning the other cheek 70X7, and staying quiet about it.



Not just fail the victims, but blame the victims. It is their fault to not fulfill their duties, and force the priesthood to drastic measures when the priesthood's needs are not taken care of.



I think the boys scouts are handing everything well right now - they have amazing new policies and training, are actually supporting victims, the opposite of most organizations.

That we may differ over the emphasis, does not in any way diminish the atrocity wherever it takes place or with whomever has initiated it. But I think it does not matter where the abuse stems from, whether a parent, teacher, respected friends or religious leader, the point is that people that are trusted and organizations that are trusted abuse that trust. Or facilitate the abuse of that trust.

But I do agree that how many of us are raised to see our religious institutions does make it seem that the breaking of trust there is individually unique. It also reflects how many of us seem to find ourselves equating a church organization as a part of God and thus some see that as no God to turn to for comfort. I can see that especially happening for young minds that haven't had the years of experience to come to greater understanding.

Personally, I have come not to equate churches and religious organizations as ordained extensions of God and perhaps that makes the difference. They are just groups of people with similar views and practices. In my understanding, God may not even be in some of them. It is practically impossible to know. Yet, even within those organizations are people that want to make things right, but are often outnumbered by those that don't care or don't want to rock the boat. That may be the biggest problem in such organizations. No longer knowing who you can trust.

 

[KW]

Is it more important to find the winner in an inglorious contest of which organization has the greatest sexual abuse record against children or to find ways to stop this abuse and covering up for abuse?

To me it matters that this exists and needs to be dealt with to protect children regardless of the nature of the organization involved.

The premise I was debunking is that religious groups are more subject to this than other groups.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

The premise I was debunking is that religious groups are more subject to this than other groups.

Attempting to debunk. You haven't yet. Clearly, the evidence indicates that more abuse occurs in public schools than in the Catholic church, but the Catholic Church is not all religion in the US. The OP is based on experience observed in the Mormon faith.

Do you think that it takes the onus off of religious groups if they are found to be in second place in this "contest"?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Have you ever heard about the children's homes in Rumania?

I do not know of specific examples outside of the use in recent fictional movies, but I can imagine the advantage taken on children displaced by political upheaval could be enormous and very disheartening.

 

[idea]

Unhealthy views on sex seem to be traced back to dominance and ownership. I am a sex-repulsed asexual but I would legalize sex work in a heartbeat because the people who engage in it need rights.

That we may differ over the emphasis, does not in any way diminish the atrocity wherever it takes place or with whomever has initiated it. But I think it does not matter where the abuse stems from, whether a parent, teacher, respected friends or religious leader, the point is that people that are trusted and organizations that are trusted abuse that trust. Or facilitate the abuse of that trust.

But I do agree that how many of us are raised to see our religious institutions does make it seem that the breaking of trust there is individually unique. It also reflects how many of us seem to find ourselves equating a church organization as a part of God and thus some see that as no God to turn to for comfort. I can see that especially happening for young minds that haven't had the years of experience to come to greater understanding.

Personally, I have come not to equate churches and religious organizations as ordained extensions of God and perhaps that makes the difference. They are just groups of people with similar views and practices. In my understanding, God may not even be in some of them. It is practically impossible to know. Yet, even within those organizations are people that want to make things right, but are often outnumbered by those that don't care or don't want to rock the boat. That may be the biggest problem in such organizations. No longer knowing who you can trust.

You learn to trust yourself - no borrowed light - no one with "authority", no "priests", no prophets, no apostles - no authority figures, everyone finds God within themselves, becomes their own authority - is one answer.

 

[idea]

The premise I was debunking is that religious groups are more subject to this than other groups.

Are you trying to restore faith in religious organizations through this argument? It is like saying racist religious practices - like Mormons banning blacks from the priesthood - is excused because "everyone is doing it". Does the "everyone does it" argument work?

I thought the point of religious groups was to not follow the crowd...

 

[Dan From Smithville]

The "shame" culture around abuse - to be embarrassed to talk about it, social stigma around it - the moral purity culture is what is to blame. In the OP - "shewed gum" - that is what you are if not a virgin in the church - you are ABC gum. It would require a change in fundamental beliefs about purity culture - to healthy discussion on sex - to end it. Teach people how to masturbate, teach everyone to take care of their own needs as a healthy thing, a fundamental change in how everyone views "purity" is needed.

I mean - if you get in a fist fight, it is a temporary thing, it is over and done usually. The emotional harm for sexual abuse is from society's purity beliefs - that if you are not "pure" you are trash. Purity beliefs are the problem.

All gender stereotypes need to be removed to address the problem.



I would legalize sex work as part of a solution too.

I have read some accounts of how various religious groups handle accusations and investigations where it is clear that part of the intent is to shame the victim or use the shame to shut the victim up and wrap up the issue quietly.

Religious groups do seem to be organized in ways to more readily facilitate cover ups and abuse even if the main issue is still one of trust that goes beyond religion.

I am definitely not a fan of the purity culture as it is rolled out to young people in many churches. We may or may not agree on details to address it, but I find in my view it imprisons people emotionally and demeans women in particular. I rather like the view that the church I attend seems to take on it. At least as I understand the view the minister mentioned some sermons ago. If it is to be taken at face value, it is a surprising view for an evangelical church to take, even in a small part.

 

[idea]

I do not know of specific examples outside of the use in recent fictional movies, but I can imagine the advantage taken on children displaced by political upheaval could be enormous and very disheartening.

Religious missionaries destroying indigenous traditions, taking kids away from families - rabbit proof fence comes to mind, google "mass graves of indigenous children"... very sad.

If organizations admit, repent, change beliefs - that is one thing.

If organizations do not admit, do not repent, hide history, rationalize history, continue "the prophet will never lead you astray and has never led anyone astray" rhetoric, that organization is still at fault.

Admit beliefs of church were wrong, admit leaders were evil - change beliefs. Most religious groups do not change their beliefs- stiff necked pharasees, they will kill Jesus before changing.

The boy scouts changed.

 

[idea]

I have read some accounts of how various religious groups handle accusations and investigations where it is clear that part of the intent is to shame the victim or use the shame to shut the victim up and wrap up the issue quietly.

Religious groups do seem to be organized in ways to more readily facilitate cover ups and abuse even if the main issue is still one of trust that goes beyond religion.

I am definitely not a fan of the purity culture as it is rolled out to young people in many churches. We may or may not agree on details to address it, but I find in my view it imprisons people emotionally and demeans women in particular. I rather like the view that the church I attend seems to take on it. At least as I understand the view the minister mentioned some sermons ago. If it is to be taken at face value, it is a surprising view for an evangelical church to take, even in a small part.

The lgbtq community has done wonders to remove sexism and allow people to be defined on their mind and character rather than defined by their body. A beloved family member of mine who raised me is deformed - missing facial features... I grew up understanding it's not what you look like that counts.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

You learn to trust yourself - no borrowed light - no one with "authority", no "priests", no prophets, no apostles - no authority figures, everyone finds God within themselves, becomes their own authority - is one answer.

Trust is a difficult and risky business. I spent the last 15 years trusting only myself and it turns out my trust was in a very angry and bitter person. So, you have to be careful of who you trust even when it is yourself.

I think I understand you though. You can correct me if not. But a person must find strength in themselves and strength in their personal faith to deal with traumatizing experiences and the breaking of trust. In my personal view, a person must recognize the personal peace and love associated with faith regardless of what others say, interpret or try to use against them. Building on the peace of understanding that can be critical in finding ones way through the obstacles of life even terrible obstacles. Even if others are acting horribly, it can be a sort of personal salvation to adhere to the values that we hold and trust in ourselves or recognize that we have lost sight of them and need to return to them.

Of course, that is all how an individual my find the spiritual and personal strength to persevere having suffered trauma, but it does not overturn the issues of trust and sexual abuse that exist in large organizations or with individual perpetrators in those organizations.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Religious missionaries destroying indigenous traditions, taking kids away from families - rabbit proof fence comes to mind, google "mass graves of indigenous children"... very sad.

If organizations admit, repent, change beliefs - that is one thing.

If organizations do not admit, do not repent, hide history, rationalize history, continue "the prophet will never lead you astray and has never led anyone astray" rhetoric, that organization is still at fault.

Admit beliefs of church were wrong, admit leaders were evil - change beliefs. Most religious groups do not change their beliefs- stiff necked pharasees, they will kill Jesus before changing.

The boy scouts changed.

I was speaking specifically of the reference to Romania. I do know of historical events in much of the world regarding how missionaries were used to soften up populations prior to conquest or after. This is a different form of abuse and in my view constitutes abuse to the religion as well as to victims of the actions of the religion. Though, that may likely be true of the abuse we are discussing too.

From a larger perspective, you could be describing the difference between nationalism and patriotism. The former ignores self-reflection and growth, while the latter embraces it in my opinion. You are advocating the same attitude by religious organizations that I hold for patriotism.

Sorry for taking this some steps out of the subject. I have a fondness for comparing and contrasting different views and the extension of positions of differing scope. It is not my intention this to be a lead in to derailing your topic.

 

[firedragon]

FwdFwd: A documentary being pitched by a friend I went to BYU with. It’s about the sexual assault epidemic in utah that continues to get buried by the church and BYU.

You can vote for "chewed gum" to help her receive funding to finish the documentary.

2022 DocPitch

I have seen the above, it is why I left the Mormon church. I know it is a problem in many faiths. Why do you think that is?

I could support the abused victims and the so called "institutional coverups", but your heading relating it to religion is absurd. So in my opinion you have given the whole scenario bad credibility by yourself.

 

[robocop (actually)]

FwdFwd: A documentary being pitched by a friend I went to BYU with. It’s about the sexual assault epidemic in utah that continues to get buried by the church and BYU.

You can vote for "chewed gum" to help her receive funding to finish the documentary.

2022 DocPitch

I have seen the above, it is why I left the Mormon church. I know it is a problem in many faiths. Why do you think that is?

I don't know why so many religions do this.

I am not for it. I am only for the good that the religions do.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It seems to me there is nothing unique about religion here. It's the abuse of power of some kind, to obtain sexual favours. It's as old as humanity itself. We've got cases going through the courts involving the police and also lots of horror stories about our members of Parliament. And we've recently had an exposé of the same thing in showbiz and in the music industry too. And in sport as well. It's everywhere, sad to say.

One problem in the churches is they tend to close ranks and hush up these scandals, whereas in many professions you are more likely to find that peers of the abuser will blow the whistle and call in the law. The churches - and sport - seem to me to have been particularly lacking in professionalism in the systems they have to report and stamp out corruption, including abuse. Too much of an amateur culture.

I think both of the issues you mention speak to things that make religion especially stand out, even if they aren't completely unique to religion.

You touched on abuse of power. Well, religion gets - and often seeks out - formal and informal power and influence unlike most other human organizations. A garden club or even the Boy Scouts don't have the political power to shield their members the way that religions do.

As for the lack of professionalism we see in religions: this comes straight from the in-group/out-group mentality inherent to religion, IMO.

This issue usually gets raised here in terms of exclusion of outsiders, but the other side of this sort of tribalism is unwarranted trust of insiders.

This is why religious organizations have been so slow to enact youth protection policies and the like: not only were they seen as not necessary, but enacting a policy that implies that members don't get automatic trust just because they're members often strikes at the core of the religion itself.

Sexual predators do well in churches for the same reason that Bernie Madoff targeted synagogues... and the reason why is inherent to religion.

 

[savagewind]

I have been formulating an hypothesis (I do not declare it to be unique or original) that organizations arise for certain reasons, but once they reach some critical size, the emphasis shifts some or a lot to the perpetuation of the organization rather than whatever reason the organization was original formed for. Anything that threatens the continuation of the organization is dealt with even in ways that contradict the very reasons for the existence of the organization. This can be exploited by anyone aware of the condition and even be a reason why some might seek power in the organization.

It is just a thought, but it seems to have significant real world evidence in support of it.

I think that you are intuitive and well said.

 

[savagewind]

It is a problem everywhere.

Public schools are worse.

That is sad news to me.

 

[idea]

Trust is a difficult and risky business. I spent the last 15 years trusting only myself and it turns out my trust was in a very angry and bitter person. So, you have to be careful of who you trust even when it is yourself.

I think I understand you though. You can correct me if not. But a person must find strength in themselves and strength in their personal faith to deal with traumatizing experiences and the breaking of trust. In my personal view, a person must recognize the personal peace and love associated with faith regardless of what others say, interpret or try to use against them. Building on the peace of understanding that can be critical in finding ones way through the obstacles of life even terrible obstacles. Even if others are acting horribly, it can be a sort of personal salvation to adhere to the values that we hold and trust in ourselves or recognize that we have lost sight of them and need to return to them.

Of course, that is all how an individual my find the spiritual and personal strength to persevere having suffered trauma, but it does not overturn the issues of trust and sexual abuse that exist in large organizations or with individual perpetrators in those organizations.

I realize I had unrealistic expectations of others when I "relied on arms of flesh". Low expectations lead to an end of anger for me. The Buddhist "empty boat" parable was very healing to me. We are all imperfect humans. Changing beliefs that no authority is needed for blessings, no authority is needed for salvation, no outside authority is needed for baptism, or anything - within Mormonism, women are not bishops, cannot bless, cannot lead, are forced to rely on others - that belief is crippling to abuse victims who are left without hope if those beliefs persist. Changing beliefs around authority, and claiming authority for yourself was the first step in healing for me. Separate "priests" from God - NOT from God - that was huge. An end of anger at God was start of claiming my own authority.

 

[KW]

Attempting to debunk. You haven't yet. Clearly, the evidence indicates that more abuse occurs in public schools than in the Catholic church, but the Catholic Church is not all religion in the US. The OP is based on experience observed in the Mormon faith.

Do you think that it takes the onus off of religious groups if they are found to be in second place in this "contest"?

All groups of adults working with children should be monitored.

 

[idea]

I could support the abused victims and the so called "institutional coverups", but your heading relating it to religion is absurd. So in my opinion you have given the whole scenario bad credibility by yourself.

I should have given title "organized religion", sorry, not a semantics expert - if there is a mod who can change title of thread?