Sexuality and Choice...

[LittleNipper]

This passage is one that I have always had a terrible time understanding. IF the god of the bible is real, I do not want anything to do with him.

Start at verse 25, verses 25 - 27 RAPE = death

But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:
26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbor, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.

verses 28 - 29, Consensual Sex = marriage & dowary
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

"lay hold" means has sex, of course, this is the man's fault for a lack of control - but - the "virgin" consents.

"lay hold" is best described in today's language as "has his way with her" - though it is consenual in these two verses.

Also I find it interesting that the taker of virginity in a premarital act may not divorce her.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Whether or not it's genetic, It's a problem. at a very primal level, A genetic trait that promotes behavior contrary to the reproduction of the species is a genetic flaw or defect.

Artificial insimination, surrogate mothers, adoption... There's more than one way that a homosexual person can help with procreation. Direct sexual intercourse is not the only way to have children or start a family.

Even so, Genetics do not remove volition from the subject. You always have a choice whether or not to ACT on the said urges. It is the same as people who are born with genetic defects or flaws. For example, there are genetic traits that make people more susceptible to addictive behaviors, submissiveness, dominance, anger, depression or any other myriad of behavior variances from the center of the bell curve. Does that mean we should put rules in place to provide them with extra privileges based on behavioral desires? I do not believe so. You are free to act how you want, but forcing everyone to accept abnormal behaviors (whether based on choice or genetic predisposition) as "normal" I believe to be morally wrong.

What extra privileges are you referring to here? They simply want the exact same rights that are afforded to heterosexual couples. Neither are they "forcing everyone to accept abnormal behaviors". Would you prefer that the general public didn't allow you to worship as you see fit? I'm fairly sure that Latter Day Saints aren't considered "normal" by the general public.

 

[madhatter85]

Artificial insimination, surrogate mothers, adoption... There's more than one way that a homosexual person can help with procreation. Direct sexual intercourse is not the only way to have children or start a family.

Only due to heterosexual procreation. Give credit where credit is due[/quote]

What extra privileges are you referring to here? They simply want the exact same rights that are afforded to heterosexual couples. Neither are they "forcing everyone to accept abnormal behaviors".

I know what they want, However they are branding it as a "right" when it is not. the things they want are privileges.

Would you prefer that the general public didn't allow you to worship as you see fit? I'm fairly sure that Latter Day Saints aren't considered "normal" by the general public.

There is nothing to my knowledge, in my DNA that compels me to chose one religion over another. Gay rights activitst brand themselves as victims of nature by saying it's not a choice.

If you are stating Homosexuality is a choice we can debate your last statement (and a plethora of other issues with homosexuality being admitted as a "choice") . If you claim it is Genetic you cannot argue religious beliefs as DNA does not dictate religious affiliation.

 

[Kerr]

Whether or not it's genetic, It's a problem. at a very primal level, A genetic trait that promotes behavior contrary to the reproduction of the species is a genetic flaw or defect.

That is why we see so many homosexuals with children.

Even so, Genetics do not remove volition from the subject. You always have a choice whether or not to ACT on the said urges. It is the same as people who are born with genetic defects or flaws. For example, there are genetic traits that make people more susceptible to addictive behaviors, submissiveness, dominance, anger, depression or any other myriad of behavior variances from the center of the bell curve. Does that mean we should put rules in place to provide them with extra privileges based on behavioral desires? I do not believe so. You are free to act how you want, but forcing everyone to accept abnormal behaviors (whether based on choice or genetic predisposition) as "normal" I believe to be morally wrong.

To force someone to be "normal" for the sake of being "normal" is even more wrong, and to allow intolerance to lead to murders and crimes of hate is entierly unacceptable. Fact is we that fight homophobia are not doing it to force people into accepting something, we are doing it to allow an exposed minority to be able to live their lives just as everyone else.

 

[madhatter85]

That is why we see so many homosexuals with children.

As I stated to APC, Heterosexual procreation is currently the only way to produce offspring. Credit should be given where it is due.

To force someone to be "normal" for the sake of being "normal" is even more wrong, and to allow intolerance to lead to murders and crimes of hate is entierly unacceptable. Fact is we that fight homophobia are not doing it to force people into accepting something, we are doing it to allow an exposed minority to be able to live their lives just as everyone else.

I'm not saying to force anyone to "Be normal" rather, to behave as such.

It is no different than helping people with mental disorders, even if their behavior does not have any adverse affects on their environment except maybe a few hurt feelings, function normally in society through therapy or medical treatment.

 

[Zorro1227]

Start at verse 25, verses 25 - 27 RAPE = death

But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:
26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbor, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.

verses 28 - 29, Consensual Sex = marriage & dowary
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

"lay hold" means has sex, of course, this is the man's fault for a lack of control - but - the "virgin" consents.

"lay hold" is best described in today's language as "has his way with her" - though it is consenual in these two verses.

Also I find it interesting that the taker of virginity in a premarital act may not divorce her.

That is speaking of a betrothed woman though.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Start at verse 25, verses 25 - 27 RAPE = death

But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:
26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbor, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.

verses 28 - 29, Consensual Sex = marriage & dowary
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

"lay hold" means has sex, of course, this is the man's fault for a lack of control - but - the "virgin" consents.

"lay hold" is best described in today's language as "has his way with her" - though it is consenual in these two verses.

Also I find it interesting that the taker of virginity in a premarital act may not divorce her.

Ah.. here we go.

Verse 25 says "betrothed damsel" and verse 28 says "damsel that is a virgin", that is the only difference. So, in other words, verses 25-27 = DEATH when the woman is married. But if she's a virgin, it's all good.

As for the translation, I like how you chose the King James version to go with here. Let's look at some others, shall we?

New International Version
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver.

New American Standard
If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, 29then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.



English Standard Version
If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, 29then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.


I like how you went with the King James version. And I'm not sure how you define, "lay hold of her", but it sounds a lot like rape.

 

[Erebus]

I would love for somebody who insists that sexuality is a choice to teach me how to be bisexual. I would love to be attracted to men as well as women, it would give me so much more to choose from.

Anybody willing to teach me?

 

[Kerr]

As I stated to APC, Heterosexual procreation is currently the only way to produce offspring.

So, I take you never can never imagine a homosexual having sex with the oposite sex because they want to have children? And you have never heard of insimination (or how you spell it)? There is nothing hetrosexual by definition about any of them.

 

[madhatter85]

For those that believe that a person's sexual preferences is a choice rather than an innate trait...

1. What evidence do you have to support this assertation?
2. Why would someone choose to make a decision that quite often results in physical and social alienation from family and friends?
3. What evidence would you require to change your opinion that sexual preference is a choice?

So, to answer the last two questions:

2. They feel they have no other alternative than to submit to their desires?

3: There is no evidence that would change my mind regarding this subject.

 

[Kerr]

I'm not saying to force anyone to "Be normal" rather, to behave as such.

Why? Why is being normal so important? I never understood this, all I have seen when I have seen people trying to be normal are people who repress who they are.

It is no different than helping people with mental disorders, even if their behavior does not have any adverse affects on their environment except maybe a few hurt feelings, function normally in society through therapy or medical treatment.

We are talking about homosexuality, they don´t need any help. The ones who need help is the homophobes who don´t accept them or even beat them to death because they cannot pull their heads out of the sand.

 

[madhatter85]

So, I take you never can never imagine a homosexual having sex with the oposite sex because they want to have children? And you have never heard of insimination (or how you spell it)? There is nothing hetrosexual by definition about any of them.

Here I will make it simple for you. Seminal fluid comes from boys. Unfertilized eggs come from females. sexual reproduction (whether artificially produced through Insemination or natural means) is the only way to produce children to further the human race.

 

[madhatter85]

Why? Why is being normal so important? I never understood this, all I have seen when I have seen people trying to be normal are people who repress who they are.

You are confusing "being" with "behaving," they are separate.

We are talking about homosexuality, they don´t need any help. The ones who need help is the homophobes who don´t accept them or even beat them to death because they cannot pull their heads out of the sand.

I beg to differ that my head is in the sand. On the contrary, I have researched this and came to my conclusions from scientific means.

 

[Perfect Circle]

As I stated to APC, Heterosexual procreation is currently the only way to produce offspring. Credit should be given where it is due.

This is flat out wrong. Artificial insemination is not a product of heterosexual procreation. A man a woman do not have sex in order to produce a child in this scenario.

I'm not saying to force anyone to "Be normal" rather, to behave as such.

So you are advocating that we force homosexuals to act straight?

It is no different than helping people with mental disorders, even if their behavior does not have any adverse affects on their environment except maybe a few hurt feelings, function normally in society through therapy or medical treatment.

We don't force anyone with a psychological condition to get "help" unless they are a danger to them self or society. I can believe that I'm a talking tree all I want, so long as I don't hurt myself or others.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Here I will make it simple for you. Seminal fluid comes from boys. Unfertilized eggs come from females. sexual reproduction (whether artificially produced through Insemination or natural means) is the only way to produce children to further the human race.

There's no such thing as heterosexual reproduction. There's sexual reproduction, and asexual reproduction. Hetero and Homo are prefixes used to describe which sex the individual has an attraction too.

 

[Perfect Circle]

3: There is no evidence that would change my mind regarding this subject.

And what does that say about you?

 

[madhatter85]

This is flat out wrong. Artificial insemination is not a product of heterosexual procreation. A man a woman do not have sex in order to produce a child in this scenario.

See my response to this same question above in my previous post

So you are advocating that we force homosexuals to act straight?

No, I'm saying that if they chose to act that way we should make no special exceptions for them.

We don't force anyone with a psychological condition to get "help" unless they are a danger to them self or society. I can believe that I'm a talking tree all I want, so long as I don't hurt myself or others.

They do end up in therapy even when they are not a danger.

 

[madhatter85]

And what does that say about you?

That I have already researched this and the evidence is not compelling as to why would should make provisions for behavioral abnormalities.

 

[madhatter85]

There's no such thing as heterosexual reproduction. There's sexual reproduction, and asexual reproduction. Hetero and Homo are prefixes used to describe which sex the individual has an attraction too.

Sexual reproduction requires a member of each opposing sex to participate. Boy parts and Girl parts are designed to work one way only

 

[bayezid3]

For those that believe that a person's sexual preferences is a choice rather than an innate trait...

1. What evidence do you have to support this assertation?
2. Why would someone choose to make a decision that quite often results in physical and social alienation from family and friends?
3. What evidence would you require to change your opinion that sexual preference is a choice?

I say it is not an innate feature of
The evidence that they were not widespread in ancient times, but it spread to modern civilization
Because the day when children come to life, see the girl in the whole physical charms
Begins Libido devote their at the age of early and be the media of video, television, mixing tradition and movies sexual help them do this
And the instinct in humans to satisfy all of the multiple ways
This works a negative impact on humans
Rights, leading to a loss of desire has the main Vitr to take Viagra pills
This works a further negative impact
And this is the human dimension of his fatigue from too many desires satiated Alrthysip
Transformed into homosexuality to satisfy his instinct of other