Shaivism - Discussion Thread

[Vinayaka]

Nope ji,not from B'lore but some relatives live there.

Indians and their relatives who live somewhere! Some days I think everybody knows everybody ... the beauty of the large Indian families, and how they stay connected ... into cousins, second cousins, friends of wife's cousins, and the list goes on. From the people I know here, I could stay for free forever in TN. Last time we went we had a brother's driver from Madurai drive us, an old friend at Chidambaram be our guide, and an uncle who worked for Palani Devasthanam take us around at Palani. One collects a lot of useful connections in many years with a community. The hospitality of the Hindu is unparalleled. All Siva's work, providing a dharmic guideline for humanity.

 

[kalyan]

Which chapter and verse? I'll go look. It's pretty long to try to find anything specific.

Not sure really but the Tirumoolar siddha work has been organized into Thantrams I believe..He establishes the whole saiva siddhanta in those 3000 verses of his.

 

[Vinayaka]

Not sure really but the Tirumoolar siddha work has been organized into Thantrams I believe..He establishes the whole saiva siddhanta in those 3000 verses of his.

I have the Ramakrishna Mission older version. There are a couple of newer ones, I believe. It is often referred to as 'The Fountainhead of Saiva Siddhanta" . It's kind of difficult to read because he uses so many analogies and esoteric language. Translations are also difficult because it has to go from Old Tamil to New Tamil to English. But even skimming a few pages gives the sense that, "Boy, this fellow really knows a ton of inner stuff!" He is the founder of the lineage I follow.

 

[Bhadr]

Not sure really but the Tirumoolar siddha work has been organized into Thantrams I believe..He establishes the whole saiva siddhanta in those 3000 verses of his.

Kalyan ji,
Shaiva Siddhanta existed much before Sri Tirumoolar,it is found in the scriptures known as Siddhanta Agamas or the Shaiva Agamas(28 in number).The philosophy spoken in these Agamas itself is Shaiva Siddhanta.

Sri Tirumoolar refers to these Agamas in his work,

The Sivagamas the Lord by Grace revealed;
In number a billion-million-twenty-eight
In them the celestials the Lord's greatness gloried;
Him, I too shall muse and praise.

(The Tirumantiram consists of 9 Tantras)

The Agamas(along with the Vedic scriptures) formed the core scriptures of many Shaiva traditions.Sri Tirumoolar represents one such glorious lineage based on the Agamas,other notable traditions being the Dualistic Shaiva Siddhanta,Kashmiri Shaivism,Virashaivism,Shivadvaita.Even the Puranas elaborate on the subjects mentioned in these Agamas only.For all these traditions,the 28 Siddhanta Agamas are the most important texts.

 

[Vinayaka]

,the 28 Siddhanta Agamas are the most important texts.

And the reason why the temples are referred to as 'Agamic temples' as they are built according to scripture. I forget which agama it is, but the details of the architecture, priesthood, ingredients to use, and more are very elaborately laid out.

 

[Bhadr]

It is often referred to as 'The Fountainhead of Saiva Siddhanta" . It's kind of difficult to read because he uses so many analogies and esoteric language. Translations are also difficult because it has to go from Old Tamil to New Tamil to English.

The language of the Tirumantiram is quite mystical in nature.It was transmitted from Saiva Siddhas to Siddhas in a coded language,so insider knowledge and insight are required to decode.Translations are disappointing to say the least.

And the reason why the temples are referred to as 'Agamic temples' as they are built according to scripture. I forget which agama it is, but the details of the architecture, priesthood, ingredients to use, and more are very elaborately laid out.

Indeed,the Agamic way is the only way to build any temple.You could ask the Sivacharya at your temple,my guess is it is Sri Kamikagama.It is very long therefore it is popular with the priests.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I have great faith in Sacred-texts.com. They have a section on Tantra: http://www.sacred-texts.com/tantra/index.htm. It also discusses Kashmir Shaivism.

.. into cousins, second cousins, friends of wife's cousins, and the list goes on.

Sure. We are all friends here. Anyone coming to Delhi can stay at my place.

 

[Vinayaka]

The language of the Tirumantiram is quite mystical in nature.It was transmitted from Saiva Siddhas to Siddhas in a coded language,so insider knowledge and insight are required to decode.Translations are disappointing to say the least.

Have you browsed this one? http://www.hindu-blog.com/2014/01/tirumantiram-in-english-download.html

As for temples, it is the sthapatis that really know, not so much the priests. The one I go to was designed by the late V. Ganapati Stapati. These days it has become unfortunate because for a few dollars the traditions are susceptible to change. If one stapathi refuses to do something because its not in accordance with scripture, the temple board just goes out and finds one who will do their bidding. Then they all say 'according to Agamas. but in reality it isn't. It just sounds nice.

 

[Bhadr]

Have you browsed this one? http://www.hindu-blog.com/2014/01/tirumantiram-in-english-download.html

I've this one and a printed version with short comments.

As for temples, it is the sthapatis that really know, not so much the priests. The one I go to was designed by the late V. Ganapati Stapati. These days it has become unfortunate because for a few dollars the traditions are susceptible to change. If one stapathi refuses to do something because its not in accordance with scripture, the temple board just goes out and finds one who will do their bidding. Then they all say 'according to Agamas. but in reality it isn't. It just sounds nice.

Ganapathi Sthapathi ji probably designed hundreds of temples,luckily you had the guidance of an expert.

Nowadays there is this shameful concept of cramming as many deities as possible in the available space disregarding all Agamic stipulations on placement of deities at their appropriate location.I don't like syncretic temples at all,they are so haphazard.In some places there is no proper path for pradakshina or there is no space for devotees to sit for a few minutes or all people crowd in front of the small area before sanctum doors and block the view of those at the rear.In an true Agamic temple these kind of issues aren't supposed to occur.
Why exactly do some temple boards do so?Do they want to spend less or is it cos of greed to earn more?

 

[Aupmanyav]

As for temples, it is the sthapatis that really know, not so much the priests. The one I go to was designed by the late V. Ganapati Sthapati.

Yes, it was serious business. That is why the old temples look so beautiful.

Do they want to spend less or is it cos of greed to earn more?

Spending less in the temple leaves more to be looted. Moreoever, just like in case of building a house, people think that they too can do it. Disregarding that it is a specialized job. My son spent a lot of money on construction of his house. Had he accepted the services of an architect, the house would have been of better design and would have cost him less. But what is done is done, no use crying over it.

 

[Vinayaka]

Why exactly do some temple boards do so?Do they want to spend less or is it cos of greed to earn more?

It's financial mostly(Speaking for the west situation) The reasoning is that one community or sect isn't big enough to support a temple, so they compromise, compromise, taking a bit from here, a bit from there, not realising that milk, orange juice, and coconut water all mixed together loses something of each one. Each temple is different though. My city is one of the luckier ones.

The other thing is that they don't realise it all starts with worship. You invite the Gods, and They build the temple for you. Many think its the other way around ... the people build the temple, then invite the Gods.

 

[Vinayaka]

In Saiva Siddhanta, there can be no discussion without Murugan, the God of yoga, known for austerities, often termed the God of the Tamil people. This weekend we get to go to a conch-laying (beneath the moolasthanam during construction) for a new temple here. The maha kumbabhishekham is to be later this summer.

 

[Chakra]

So @Bhadr , you are a follower of Shaiva Siddhanta?

 

[kalyan]

I've this one and a printed version with short comments.


Ganapathi Sthapathi ji probably designed hundreds of temples,luckily you had the guidance of an expert.

Nowadays there is this shameful concept of cramming as many deities as possible in the available space disregarding all Agamic stipulations on placement of deities at their appropriate location.I don't like syncretic temples at all,they are so haphazard.In some places there is no proper path for pradakshina or there is no space for devotees to sit for a few minutes or all people crowd in front of the small area before sanctum doors and block the view of those at the rear.In an true Agamic temple these kind of issues aren't supposed to occur.
Why exactly do some temple boards do so?Do they want to spend less or is it cos of greed to earn more?

yes nowadays it has become a fashion to cram all the deities to attract more people I believe which translates to earning more money......The temples have become purely commercial. The Tirumala itself has lost its sanctity because of the money hunger pujaris and it gives the feeling of a club and not to mention SriSailam as well which has become a joke with those special tickets and thousands of varieties of poojas to leech the money from the people, ofcourse people with all their desires succumb

 

[Bhadr]

Moreoever, just like in case of building a house, people think that they too can do it. Disregarding that it is a specialized job.

Aupji,
100 % Truth.

It's financial mostly(Speaking for the west situation) The reasoning is that one community or sect isn't big enough to support a temple, so they compromise

In these kinds of situations, especially in the west, it could be difficult to construct proper shrine.

The other thing is that they don't realise it all starts with worship. You invite the Gods, and They build the temple for you. Many think its the other way around ... the people build the temple, then invite the Gods.

I didn’t get it,could you tell more?

This weekend we get to go to a conch-laying (beneath the moolasthanam during construction) for a new temple here. The maha kumbabhishekham is to be later this summer.

I would like to go to a Mahakumbhabhishekam but never got an opportunity.I came to know of Chidambaram Mahakumbhabhisekam(took place last year) after I saw it in the news and so I couldn’t attend.

I attended a Ganesha murthi pratishta done at a relative’s place.There was homa,Yantra worship,purification of the murthi(not a big one,maybe less than 2 feet,made of black stone(granite?) and twas surprisingly heavy for its size).The rituals began early in the morning and got done by noon. I think it wasn’t very complex or long as the Ganesha was meant for private puja.They did put some valuable items in the place where the murthi sits but there wasn’t a conch.Is the conch placed there forever or removed before the Murthi is placed?

earning more money..... have become purely commercial.

Kali Yuga!

 

[Vinayaka]

I didn’t get it,could you tell more?

I would like to go to a Mahakumbhabhishekam but never got an opportunity.I came to know of Chidambaram Mahakumbhabhisekam(took place last year) after I saw it in the news and so I couldn’t attend.

Generally proper temples start out with either a vision, or devotion. So, because of the mystical way Ganesha works, the very first thing you should do is establish devotion. In the temple I was involved in, first we had a murthi gifted to us. (By Satguru Subramuniyswami, who also served as temple spiritual advisor fro the entire process) For the first year satsangs were held in devotee's homes once a month. Then we rented a small room, where it became once a week. This lasted for nearly 10 years. It grew. To start was maybe 10 families, but by the time we left that room festivals were getting 200 people. No room in the room. So we bought land, and proceed as much as we could without debt. The land came with a house, so the next 10 years had the temple in that house. A priest was brought over, and pujas switched from twice a week to twice a day. So it grows. The hundi gets more and more.

Imagine this like the way an entrepreneur starts and builds a business. Does he start by building a million dollar warehouse, just hoping he will find customers, or does he start with a small home-run business, working on a prototype of the product, and then let it grow?

The other way, but not completely, is to ignore worship, and think too much a bout the end building, the design, the fundraising, etc. Fundraising in itself is extremely difficult this way, because nobody really believes it might actually be successful. In the other way, progress is a continuum, and people can see it, so are much more willing to donate.

A Mahakumbhabhishekham is the one and only first one, the grand opening of the temple, the prana pratishta, eye-openings. After that there are kumbabhishekhams once every 12 years, for re-cleansing, alterations, etc. The deities are moved out (in kumbhams) into a temporary structure so renovations can occur.

 

[Chakra]

I really hope this thread doesn't die out.

 

[Vinayaka]

Aum ... for a virtual pilgrimage and tour of any of the famous Siva temples (and many other sites) this website has great 360 degree photos and maps of them. Its like going there ... almost.

http://www.dinamalar.com/360view_main_eng.asp

 

[Vinayaka]

Chakra, maybe you inspired this. thanks.

Lately I've been really wondering more about the 4 yogas concept, as summarised here: http://www.swamij.com/four-paths-of-yoga.htm
Sivananda, although by his name sounds like he was a Saivite, actually wasn't. He was a Smarta, Advaita Vedantin. Many people mistakenly think He was a great Saivite. Great Guru, yes, and his work is remarkable, but not a Saivite in the traditional sense.

Personally, I prefer more balance, and for some people, I think that approach may almost be less fulfilling that it could be. I love serving people, doing volunteer work. I love my temple. I love sitting, reflecting, and I love when insights come from within. I don't like discussing philosophy much, the article Sivananda explains 'knowledge' in the same 'jnana' way Saivas understand it. Maybe its when I see other people following 'one' of the yogas, I kind of feel sorry for them, like their missing out on some aspect of life. Then again, it's just a personal observation coming from a personal bias.

Thoughts, anyone? Is putting too much focus on one 'yoga' actually a detriment to spiritual progress?

More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_of_Synthesis

 

[Aupmanyav]

Moreoever, just like in case of building a house, people think that they too can do it.

Continuing .. I think the 'garbhagruha' style is old and it needs a revision in modern times when the numbers visiting the temples have increased hundred fold because of increase in population and ease of transportation. We numbered 390 million in 1947 and now number 1289 million. There should be a larger access for 'darshana'. Because of the constricted design, overcorwding is a major problem at all temples. IMHO, Sthapatya Shastra needs a re-writing.