Shame on US capital punishment

[Caina]

Death doesnt really teach anything to the person condemned. Prolonged torture is much better. Personally I think live organ donations as payment for crime is the best. Let a worthwhile member of society have a better shot, while the criminals can do with one less kidney or half a liver

 

[Mathematician]

They are already murderers or child molesters...

I presume he's talking about the fact deterrence [IE: being made an example of] isn't a good reason to kill someone, in which case I agree. It's not the murderer's fault others have killed. Deterrence can be used to justify capital punishment for any crime.

 

[lillitruthseeker]

i dont agree with capital punishment -- why shouldnt they have to think about what they did for the rest of their life? death seems the easy way out

 

[Caina]

i dont agree with capital punishment -- why shouldnt they have to think about what they did for the rest of their life? death seems the easy way out

Agreed, way to easy. A punishment should be enduring. Bring back public beating

 

[rojse]

I have several personal problems with the death penalty. Although I have every sympathy for the victims, I do not believe that legalised murder is the solution.

Firstly, can we ever be sure that a person charged for a crime is actually guilty of that crime? Sure, he or she may confess, but many people confess to crimes just to be the centre of attention, or for some other reason. Also, what about the evidence used against the criminal? Perhaps the evidence is analysed in the wrong manner, or is even falsified. I recommend reading John Grisham's "The Innocent Man." The main character (it is a true story) was in prison for twenty years for a crime he did not commit, and was later exonerated. There was fabricated evidence used against him, testimonies vouching for the man were ignored, and fabricated testimonies were used against him. He was supposed to get the death sentence, and it was only through the work of anti-death campaigners that he was freed.

Secondly, if a child molester, rapist, or murderer was sentenced to jail indefinitely, as compared to legalised murder, what is the difference to society? That person is not really going anywhere, are they? The only difference I see is that they are stuck inside a small cell for the rest of their lives, insted of receiving a lethal injection,

Lastly, my question about what would you do should we be able to completely rehabilitate a criminal. It was to see if any pro-death person could see another way that they could have legal closure besides the death penalty sentence. It is not a reality yet, though. I am glad at least one person tried to think about what I wrote. As for moral objections, changing the way people think and act would obviously draw objections, even if they are murderers or rapists or whatever else deserves the death penalty.

 

[Booko]

I sympathize with the victim's families. It seems that people don't take the emotions they might feel into consideration as I was pointing out to Mr. Guy. Also, how many slips do we let get by before people finally have enough? Many people consider the lives of children more valuable than the lives of child molesters.

Oh, I'd be a fool indeed not to take those feelings into account, nor would I suggest we just callously ignore the feelings of victim's families and suggest they just "get over it" or anything of that sort. It simply isn't that easy.

For me it was "What movie stars do you see on a daily basis,"

Oh, now I've never gotten that one, but then I don't live where you do either. I've seen plenty of rock stars, but that's because Gibson guitars were made in my old hometown, and plenty of them stopped by between gigs in Detroit and Chicago and picked up equipment.

"How many bedrooms is your mansion,"

I usually make a smart remark about how, living in Georgia, we don't have flush toilets in the house, but have a nice 2-holer outhouse out back. Evil, ain't I?

"You mean you don't like President Bush and support the war," and my favorite "Wow...you Americans are crazy (as they watch back to back episodes of Jerry Springer)"

It seems to be lost on many folks that, even among those that voted, at least half didn't vote for our current Prez. It's not a mathematically difficult fact to grasp, but then I've no idea how good a job the foreign press does in reporting stuff like that when it comes to US politics.

Nor did I say that it was always used. But DNA testing has cut the number of wrongly convicted down dramtically....making wrong convictions even more rare.

I'm delighted that it has had that effect. The project that exonerates the wrongly convicted has passed the 1000 mark by now. That in itself would give me reason to pause on the subject of capital punishment. That's 1000 people who would be dead now, if death row cleared out quicker.

I was always taught in school that we Americans were so much better because our legal system took the view that it was better to let 10 criminals go free than to wrongly convict 1 person.

But somehow, in discussions of capital punishment, that principle seems to be nearly absent in the views of the proponents.

Weird.

 

[Booko]

Sorry to hear you are in the victim associated group. I don't know your situation of course, but when I see things like a guy in his 30's pull an 8 yo girl into a toilet of a mall, rape her and mutilate her to death, then casually walk out of that toilet and hang around to watch the cops attend to the matter, I have no negative feelings at all to him being put to death.

The thing is, the more I find out about how the perp started out in life, the more I think "there but for the grace of God go I."

That doesn't for a minute make it okay to just forgive and forget and let someone who has *chosen* to commit such an act walk away. But I'm satisfied to see the person unable to commit any further acts.

The flip side is, I've also seen the guys sent away wrongly. It's bad enough they rot in jail for years because the legal system has some flaws (most particularly that certain jurors don't have a clue how to stand their ground on "reasonable doubt"). After dealing with that side of things, I'd rather err on the side of caution.

Although I must say, our recent case here in Atlanta of the guy who broke out of the Fulton County Courthouse, but only after killing a cop, a judge and another court official, well, if they decided he had demonstrated it was safer not to assume he could be kept in jail for a certainty, I would not complain loudly if the court decided capital punishment was warranted either.

 

[Booko]

Thanks for the reference, Mestemia. I don't think I've been around here long enough to put up links.
Your support is appreciated.

As of this reply, you've left 18 posts. I believe you can post links after 15 posts.

 

[Booko]

I have a question for those that support capital punishment. Imagine if we could rehabilitate a capital offender so that the offender would not be able to commit their crime again, through mental conditioning or sexual suppressants or however we manage to solve their problem. Would this be a moral thing to do? Would those that agree to capital punishment put an end to their support? Why or why not?

There was, in fact, quite a stink in my old hometown, as a member of the richest family in town was convicted of rape and was sentenced not to years in a nasty prison like any normal person, but was given house arrest and shots of Depo Provera as he was considered not a "common criminal" but just a guy with a physical problem.

"The rich are very different from you and me."

"Yeah. They have more money."

Oh dear. That was a digression. Sorry! As for your question, I'm not a supporter of CP, but I would point out that at this time our track record on rehabilitation is not exactly stellar.

While we should still try to do something to assist those who commit violent crimes, I'm still far far in favor or ensuring that we protect society. Protecting the sheep from the wolves should always be our first priority.

 

[Booko]

Death doesnt really teach anything to the person condemned. Prolonged torture is much better. Personally I think live organ donations as payment for crime is the best. Let a worthwhile member of society have a better shot, while the criminals can do with one less kidney or half a liver

You just reminded me of a short story written by an SF writer a long time ago about the logical end of such a system. In his story, the protagonist had been convicted of running a red light, so they were going to kill him for a few needed body parts... :cover:

(Who the heck was that author? Poul Anderson? Dang -- it was probably 30 years ago at least.)

 

[Callmepaul]

I was always taught in school that we Americans were so much better because our legal system took the view that it was better to let 10 criminals go free than to wrongly convict 1 person.

But somehow, in discussions of capital punishment, that principle seems to be nearly absent in the views of the proponents.

Weird.

:clap

 

[rojse]

I see your point in regards to rehabilitation. I would not be able to comment on the case myself as I am unaware of the circumstances or the psychiatrical history and so forth.

I was trying to postulate on the "imagine if we could completely rehabilitate a person" idea. I apologise, as I should have made this more clear. I asked so I could see if any pro capital punishment people could see another way that the families of the victims could be legally compensated.

There would have to be a defined rehabilitation procedure, and this would have to be overseen by an independent, trained observer so that someone cannot merely grease the wheels of the system to help themselves out. The acceptance procedure would have to have a defined criterion, too, not merely be for rich people, and not be restricted on the basis of a set number of people each year, as that would lead to problems.

I am sure that these problems could be overcome, but there would be great hurdles to cross, as you have correctly pointed out.

 

[Mister_T]

Oh, now I've never gotten that one, but then I don't live where you do either. I've seen plenty of rock stars, but that's because Gibson guitars were made in my old hometown, and plenty of them stopped by between gigs in Detroit and Chicago and picked up equipment.

Being an owner of a Gibson, that is something I never knew. God Bless Georgia

I actually have seen an occasional celebrity once in a while. My cousin and I were driving back to his house after getting lunch one day. We passed by a car wash next to his house and saw Kobe Bryant getting his Escalade washed. I saw Cheech and Jason Priestly in Las Vegas in April. There are celebrities all over Southern California so you're chance are pretty good that you'll run into one at some point.....although there are people who never do.

The places I visited overseas though, acted like I was tripping over this group of people everyday.

I usually make a smart remark about how, living in Georgia, we don't have flush toilets in the house, but have a nice 2-holer outhouse out back. Evil, ain't I?

That's a good one! I actually told a bartender in South Africa that we don't use porcelin for our toliets and that they're made out of gold. He gave me one of those half smiles.

It seems to be lost on many folks that, even among those that voted, at least half didn't vote for our current Prez. It's not a mathematically difficult fact to grasp, but then I've no idea how good a job the foreign press does in reporting stuff like that when it comes to US politics.

That was probably the biggest shocker to people. I didn't get a chance to watch the news when I was over there, so I'm not sure what kind of coverage U.S. politics were getting.

I was always taught in school that we Americans were so much better because our legal system took the view that it was better to let 10 criminals go free than to wrongly convict 1 person.

Really?! My how times have changed. When I took criminal justice in high school they taught us the opposite. And when I heard my teacher say that, I was disgusted.

 

[Callmepaul]

Really?! My how times have changed. When I took criminal justice in high school they taught us the opposite. And when I heard my teacher say that, I was disgusted.

I guess I'm confused. Are you saying you are disgusted at having 10 guilty people set free to protect 1 innocent person? I would like to believe that the rights of the individual were valued by most Americans. Unfortunately, it is whoever can afford the best lawyer that stands the best chance in our judicial system. The poor and marginalized are often convicted on circumstantial evidence alone.

 

[Mister_T]

I guess I'm confused. Are you saying you are disgusted at having 10 guilty people set free to protect 1 innocent person?

No. I'm disgusted at the notion of convicting 10 guilty even if that means that one innocent person is wrongly convicted. My Criminal Justice teacher was like "Oh well. Tough luck." Bet he wouldn't be saying that if he had to walk in those shoes.

 

[Caina]

You just reminded me of a short story written by an SF writer a long time ago about the logical end of such a system. In his story, the protagonist had been convicted of running a red light, so they were going to kill him for a few needed body parts... :cover:

(Who the heck was that author? Poul Anderson? Dang -- it was probably 30 years ago at least.)

I would love to give it a read, sure you cant remember?

 

[Ozzie]

"What? The land of the free, whoever told you that was your enemy"

Your free in the stars and stripes if you have the capital. Otherwise you get the punishment.

 

[Callmepaul]

No. I'm disgusted at the notion of convicting 10 guilty even if that means that one innocent person is wrongly convicted. My Criminal Justice teacher was like "Oh well. Tough luck." Bet he wouldn't be saying that if he had to walk in those shoes.

Thanks for clearing that up. The huge number of people who are free today based on DNA evidence not available at their trial undoubtedly feel the way you do. If there is such a thing as karma, perhaps your old teacher will find himself in those shoes one day. Let's hope he doesn't live in Texas and get gassed before he can undo the damage of a mediocre lawyer.

 

[Napoleon]

I don't understand why people make such a big deal about the death penalty considering the fact that the vast majority of convicts sentenced to death end up dying of natural causes in prison because they bury the State in appeals. Personally, I think Europeans should be more outraged at the crimes committed by these people instead of pitying the criminal. It's easy for Europeans to say that we should be giving them life sentences instead because they're not the ones paying for it. Maybe you consider me to be "selfish" but I can't justify allowing a man who brutally murdered his pregnant wife to kick his heels and enjoy free cable, food, and health care for life courtesy of the American taxpayer.

 

[joeboonda]

Only the most vile offenders receive capital punishment in America, and it is needed to protect us from them. Recently a woman killed her preacher husband, and basically got probation because he had been abusing her. But look at the man that murdered all those students at Va. Tech. If he was caught alive, he would surely be put to death, and rightfully so. Some people are so full of hate and evil, they must be stopped. If one doesn't think their are evil people, then why do we need police and jails? There must be penalties for crimes to fit the crimes, to deter people who may be disposed to commit murders. So, if you take a life, you lose yours in the USA, if you don't like it, MOVE! If someone thinks they are gonna come to America and murder people, they better think good and hard about it.