sharia and honour killing

[asa120]

It's haram. Unjust killing of a human is like killing of entire mankind.


Because some people are bad and/or ignorant.


Sorry to say but that is true to a small extent. Or at least I should say the louder scholars of Islam (who are few in number but loud) often say that.


Yep. It is such a contradiction. There are several Islamic rulings that even the most hardline "Muslim" countries don't implement. For example rulings on interest in banking (which is very much practiced in Saudi Arabia). Rulings on the punishment for lying (which so many politicians in Iran and Saudi do without remorse) which is strictly forbidden in Islam. And much more ... it only goes to show whether Islam is their real motivation or just personal egos.

thanks tariqkhwaja at least you shut him up

 

[gnostic]

thanks tariqkhwaja at least you shut him up

I don't know what your problem is, but you have a chip on your shoulder.

I have no problem with dealing with reasonable replies from tariqkhwaja, and when I have time to answer him, I will. I will answer him in my own times, because I don't always have time to check every threads I have posted.

And I have apologised several times already for mis-reading your posts, in public on this forum. And I have apologised that you have found my topic to be offensive to you. I do not expect forgiveness from you. Nor do I expect an apology from you when you have personally insulted me. However, matter should have been settled with my expressed apologies by you simply walking away from this topic.

Do you want to read the apologies again?

I am sorry that I have misread your post earlier. I am sorry that I have offended you.

What more do you want from me?

Right now, you're being utterly unreasonable, and you are not helping your cause (or the cause of Islam) with the way you're acting.

 

[gnostic]

It's haram. Unjust killing of a human is like killing of entire mankind.

I would not go that far with "mankind", but I do understand what you mean. I would agree with you that it is a terrible loss to the victim and to those that have to deal with the loss (unless the entire family or community condone or support the horrendous acts).

Sorry to say but that is true to a small extent. Or at least I should say the louder scholars of Islam (who are few in number but loud) often say that.

Few as they may seem, the scholars and clerics have powerful voices within the society and within the law and authorities. It is why I believe that there should be separation between the state and religion. Religion shouldn't interfere with the law and government policies.

When the clerics justified the killing as acceptable, the courts and polices are reluctant to challenge the clerics in those communities.

It would be just as terribly unfortunate should the victim survive the attack, because she (or he) would not find support among her (or his) family and friends, community or with the law, because the cleric would have condemned her or him.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Right on with BOTH posts Gnostic!

State and religion should be separated and members of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community (who claim to follow the true Islam) firmly believe so. Once the western world seperated religion from politics it boomed. And once the opposite happened in the Muslim countries they declined (oil resources and all).

In the time of Jesus too scholars were of a similar nature. Well read in their books but empty of knowledge. The Quran refers to these scholars as:

[62:6] The likeness of those who were made to bear the law of Torah, but would not bear it, is as the likeness of an donkey carrying a load of books. Evil is the likeness of the people who reject the Signs of Allah. And Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

The similarity to a donkey is so perfect. That they carried the books but had no idea what those books meant. So, in the same way as prophecized by the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) the Islamic scholars of today are the worst people under the sky. The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) highlighted their similarity to the Jews. And today this is what we witness.

They are the source of extremist thoughts for those in Islam and source of disdain and rebuke for Islam from those outside Islam.

It is for revealing these facts that the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community is persecuted in countries where these scholars are given power.

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

I wish people would stop calling it honour killing. There is nothing honorable about murder

 

[Starsoul]

The majority of honor killings that have occurred in every Muslim-dominant population (in the Middle East and South-east Asia), statistically, the victims were women and girls, not these attackers which you claimed.

And your information is highly incorrect.

You certainly need to research more on this. Honor killing was predominantly a hindu practise in the Asian sub continent, in Hindustan, areas of which after the division, are NOW included in some muslim countries. For instance, there is quite a large number of hindus in sindh, in Pakistan, a muslim country, and yet it used to have the most incidence of honor killings. It has been legislated illegal, in India and pakistan, and the incidence has significantly decreased since then.

Dont get why you're relating a prehistoric tribal ignorant tradition to Islam, please review your 'fake biased facts' before assuming to know all about them.

 

[gnostic]

You certainly need to research more on this. Honor killing was predominantly a hindu practise in the Asian sub continent, in Hindustan, areas of which after the division, are NOW included in some muslim countries. For instance, there is quite a large number of hindus in sindh, in Pakistan, a muslim country, and yet it used to have the most incidence of honor killings. It has been legislated illegal, in India and pakistan, and the incidence has significantly decreased since then.*

Dont get why you're relating a prehistoric tribal ignorant tradition to Islam, please review your 'fake biased facts' before assuming to know all about them.

Yes, I am aware that honor killings occur in India and Pakistan, among the Hindus.

But as I have stated a number of times already, this about this thread is about honor killing happening among Muslims and how the sharia deal with it or don't deal with it. Honor killings also occur where there are no Hindu society in Muslim-dominant populated countries/regions, like the Arabian peninsula, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey and Egypt.

If they (honor killing) didn't occur in these countries then I don't think this topic is out of place.

Let take Jordan as an example.

1. Does Jordan have a great deal of people following Hinduism?
2. Do the average Jordanians have a lot of face-to-face interaction with Hindus in their country?
3. Then you'll have to ask yourself, "Why is honor killings occurring in Jordan?"
4. Or why is it occurring in Jordanian/Muslim families? What is being done about it?

It is not fake or biased fact if it is happening among Muslim Jordanians. There is no connection between the Hindus in the subcontinent and the Muslims in Jordan.

To me, you're in denial state that think it is not happening among Muslims, instead of dealing with it.

And some of the motives do sometimes relate to Islam.

For example, a person converting to another religion or becoming atheist. Or a Muslim woman or girl disobeying any of the following rules, like not covering head, socializing with males without being escorted by male relative, refusing arranged marriage, alleged adultery, and who know for whatever other reason that*a father, brother, uncle, cousin or husband may think a rule that a woman or girl may have broken.

I was quite specific with this topic: Sharia and honor killing.

I don't just want quotes from the Qur'an of what it may or may not say about the situation. The reason being, what the book may say, may not match with what is actually happening in real life. The laws that may have been presented in the Qur'an often deal with ideals and in ideal situations. You know that in real life that it is not always in black-and-white.

This topic is not so much about being one group (Hindus) has more honor killings than others, but as to why it is happening among Muslim families?

What i really know is what the law is doing about it (in real life)?

And if it (law) is not handling it, where did it go wrong?

 

[gnostic]

State and religion should be separated and members of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community (who claim to follow the true Islam) firmly believe so. Once the western world seperated religion from politics it boomed. And once the opposite happened in the Muslim countries they declined (oil resources and all).

It is for revealing these facts that the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community is persecuted in countries where these scholars are given power.

I have never heard of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, so I don't know anything about them.

It is terrible to hear the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community are being discriminated or persecuted, and that the clerics/scholars may be involved inciting the persecution.

I don't like to hear of any group being persecuted, whether it is for religious belief or for having different political or social ideology to others.

In the time of Jesus too scholars were of a similar nature. Well read in their books but empty of knowledge. The Quran refers to these scholars as:
Quote:
[62:6] The likeness of those who were made to bear the law of Torah, but would not bear it, is as the likeness of an donkey carrying a load of books. Evil is the likeness of the people who reject the Signs of Allah. And Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.
The similarity to a donkey is so perfect. That they carried the books but had no idea what those books meant. So, in the same way as prophecized by the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) the Islamic scholars of today are the worst people under the sky. The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) highlighted their similarity to the Jews. And today this is what we witness.

They are the source of extremist thoughts for those in Islam and source of disdain and rebuke for Islam from those outside Islam.

You've said that some hostile scholars (and perhaps also clerics) are (or were) louder in their convictions.

Sorry to say but that is true to a small extent. Or at least I should say the louder scholars of Islam (who are few in number but loud) often say that.

Then you should understand why these clerics are being heard by non-Muslims (like me for example), and why non-Muslims may get the wrong idea about Islam or about Muslims in general.

Even among Muslims themselves, they would naturally believe what their clerics or scholars might say, even though they should know better that this is wrong with the actions that they might take.

Murder is murder, whether you call it "honor killing" or not.

Like Flying Teapot say, there is nothing honorable about killing a person, especially when the victim is a member of the family. And killing for honor seem archaic.

People in the west, used to duel over matter of honor. This is also archaic, but at least two people would have the same type of weapons for duelling, so it is essentially considered a fair fight. This honor killing, however, is not about playing fair, when you considered that most often or not, females are more often victims in the murder, killed by her male kinsman or her male spouse. The only thing a woman or girl can do is run and hide, because it would seem the society she live in don't care about her plight.

Honor killing is like domestic violence, except murder is committed. Murder in domestic environment also occur in non-Muslim families, like in Australia, but rarely is the issue or motive of the murders about religious-based honor.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

It is to be loud that we recently conducted the following blood drive to honor 9/11 victims by collecting 10,000 blood donations in effect saving 30,000 lives. These terrorists are trying to hijack Islam and Muslims need to get up and take it back.

Muslims For Life

 

[Starsoul]

@ gnostic You aren't putting your question right.

Honor killing was an encouraged practice in not only the Ancient roman civilizations, but also a great part of christian tradition as well,( supported by Levitcus 21.9) along with other civilizations, where if was found in one form or the other. It was never supported by islamic injunctions of shariah, anywhere in time.

And just because some remnants of tribal poor un educated societies are still carrying it out, does not link any of it to Islam. For reference, since shariah is NOT in practice in any of the Islamic countries, a large number of people are quite unaware of the main principles of Islam, since these tribal/feudal systems do not encourage education and the feudal lords support these families, in exchange for their services.

They discourage education for obvious reasons, if people get educated, who will tend to their vast cultivated lands, how would they control the lives and minds of their people, and who will serve them like demi gods? Feudalism being a completely un islamic practise, but since super powers support govts. of such people who have imperialistic feudal mindsets in these muslim countries, most of the islamic countries are ruled by people who have feudal mindsets, no matter whether they study at oxford or wherever.

Murder is murder whether it is done on false grounds by invading Islamic countries, carpet bombing innocent populations on false whims and information and yet carrying it out for decades, or when done by democracies who drop nuclear bombs on vast populations (hiroshima), and then point fingers at islam /any other religion/ideology, create mass phobia of it; in order to divert attention from their own henious crimes to ruin the image of something that has nothing to do with it.

Nobody, not even the human rights commission make any hue or cry over the mass murder of muslims going on for decades in the same muslim countries that you mention, but yes kill one jew, talk truth about them or any western person, and watch your country being bombed/sanctioned/ and treated like crap.

Clear your head, stop veiwing the world through an islamophobic keyhole, there's a lot more to it than meets the eye.

On the face, offcorse the international bigwigs make the feudals/dictators seem like a bad influence, but its a well known fact that they find immense support from the international community.

And just because there is murder in them name of honor, does not make any murder any different, anywhere in the world, for any reason. Honor killing is just treated like any other murder in islam, it is not supported by the shariah.

People need to worry more about the crime rates of the super developed, well educated nations like the americans, who despite having it all, have the highest crime,rape and murder rate. Now that is a huge disgrace for a supposed educated nation , don't you think?

 

[tariqkhwaja]

I just want to clarify here that Gnostic already stated that Quran does not condone honor killings. Really maybe his title is a bit vague but that does not seem to be his intention.

I think he is only really pointing out the apathy of mainstream Islamic scholars in this regard which is quite true.

 

[gnostic]

*sigh*

Perhaps, I am not wording my thoughts and response clearly.

Honor killing was an encouraged practice in not only the Ancient roman civilizations, but also a great part of christian tradition as well,( supported by Levitcus 21.9) along with other civilizations, where if was found in one form or the other. It was never supported by islamic injunctions of shariah, anywhere in time.

I am not saying that Sharia support honor killing.

I've been asking if Sharia say anything about honor killing. That's not the same as Sharia is supporting honor killing.

Mostly I want to know if Sharia have provision to deal with honor killing.

Whether you like it or not, honor killing exist in Muslim societies. Of course, a majority of Muslims do not resort to such drastic actions.

However, denying that honor killing doesn't exist in some Muslim communities and blaming it on cultures, doesn't help in any way, to resolve this type of situations. Silence doesn't hide what's happening. Silence doesn't prevent honor killing from occurring.

And just because there is murder in them name of honor, does not make any murder any different, anywhere in the world, for any reason.

I totally agree.

Honor killing is just treated like any other murder in islam, it is not supported by the shariah.

I didn't say sharia support it.

I am saying the authorities (police, court) are reluctant to act on it, like arresting, prosecute and convict the murderers. And some clerics actually condone honor killings.

People need to worry more about the crime rates of the super developed, well educated nations like the americans, who despite having it all, have the highest crime,rape and murder rate. Now that is a huge disgrace for a supposed educated nation , don't you think?

Yes, crime are high in the US. No one deny this. But not everyone are well-educated in the US, and large number of Americans are poverty-stricken. In many areas (underbelly of the cities), not generally seen in the media, it is like 3rd world condition.

I don't have any illusion that even in powerful and rich countries that corruptions existed, from the high to the low.

In any case, I don't live in the US and I am not an American, because you seem to be baiting me with what wrong with the American societies. *sigh*

Murder is murder whether it is done on false grounds by invading Islamic countries, carpet bombing innocent populations on false whims and information and yet carrying it out for decades, or when done by democracies who drop nuclear bombs on vast populations (hiroshima), and then point fingers at islam /any other religion/ideology, create mass phobia of it; in order to divert attention from their own henious crimes to ruin the image of something that has nothing to do with it.

This (above quote) is totally unrelated.

The questions you should be asking me, are:

Does domestic violence, including murder of spouse or children (or both occur), occurred in the US, and what you call "well-educated" countries?
​

Then, I would answer "yes".

Or murder of parents or siblings?
​

Yes, that can happen and have been known to happen.

Motives varied for these murder. It could be greed, jealousy, rage, depression, etc, or a combination of any of these motives.

A man may murder his ex-wife (and possibly his children), because he lost property, the custody of his children. There is one recent case in Melbourne, where a man threw his daughter off the bridge, just to get revenge on his ex-wife. He was prosecuted and convicted for his crime (32 years seemed not enough). This had nothing to do with religion, but vindictiveness.

 

[beenie]

*sigh*

Perhaps, I am not wording my thoughts and response clearly.



I am not saying that Sharia support honor killing.

I've been asking if Sharia say anything about honor killing. That's not the same as Sharia is supporting honor killing.

Mostly I want to know if Sharia have provision to deal with honor killing.

I think you're wording it well, and your question is clear. I am not able to find any statements either way that condone nor condemn honor killings in Shariah Law. I will continue to research it though, because it is definitely an issue that needs addressing.

Whether you like it or not, honor killing exist in Muslim societies. Of course, a majority of Muslims do not resort to such drastic actions.

True. Thank you for acknowledging that the vast majority of Muslims do not resort to this disgusting behavior; however, when it does happen, it's inexcusable.
However, denying that honor killing doesn't exist in some Muslim communities and blaming it on cultures, doesn't help in any way, to resolve this type of situations. Silence doesn't hide what's happening. Silence doesn't prevent honor killing from occurring.

I didn't say sharia support it.

I am saying the authorities (police, court) are reluctant to act on it, like arresting, prosecute and convict the murderers. And some clerics actually condone honor killings.

Unfortunately this is also true, and horribly sad. Tribal and cultural rule seems to override anything else in this matter, and it needs to be stopped.

Yes, crime are high in the US. No one deny this. But not everyone are well-educated in the US, and large number of Americans are poverty-stricken. In many areas (underbelly of the cities), not generally seen in the media, it is like 3rd world condition.

I don't have any illusion that even in powerful and rich countries that corruptions existed, from the high to the low.

In any case, I don't live in the US and I am not an American, because you seem to be baiting me with what wrong with the American societies. *sigh*

I wish we Muslims would stop pointing the finger at other societies (ie, "you Americans aren't perfect either"). No, we're not, but start another thread bashing American culture if you want to talk about crime in America. This is about honor killings; stop derailing...this is one of my biggest pet peeves when discussing with Muslims...it's always the "well, look at YOU guys" argument. There is no point in discussing anything if we're going to continue to point fingers and refuse to look at ourselves first. Change starts with US, not THEM.

The questions you should be asking me, are:

Does domestic violence, including murder of spouse or children (or both occur), occurred in the US, and what you call "well-educated" countries?
​

Then, I would answer "yes".

Or murder of parents or siblings?
​

Yes, that can happen and have been known to happen.

Motives varied for these murder. It could be greed, jealousy, rage, depression, etc, or a combination of any of these motives.

A man may murder his ex-wife (and possibly his children), because he lost property, the custody of his children. There is one recent case in Melbourne, where a man threw his daughter off the bridge, just to get revenge on his ex-wife. He was prosecuted and convicted for his crime (32 years seemed not enough). This had nothing to do with religion, but vindictiveness.

Yes, it's time we start being honest with ourselves and admit to the problems that exist within Islamic culture. Even if it's NOT directly tied to Islam (which I firmly believe it's NOT), then we have to start repairing our mindset to address the problem and fix it. IMO, PROPER education, dialogue, choices...these are what will start the ball rolling in helping Muslims realize that these acts are horrific and unacceptable. Time to stop burying our heads in the proverbial sand and prove honor killings aren't part of Islam by NOT DOING IT in the first place.

 

[gnostic]

I think you're wording it well, and your question is clear. I am not able to find any statements either way that condone nor condemn honor killings in Shariah Law. I will continue to research it though, because it is definitely an issue that needs addressing.

Thank you, ssainhu. You have actually said it better than I did, because both asa120 and starsoul have misunderstood my posts.

Yes, you're right. It is issue that "needs addressing".

You have basically cut down my all long posts in clear and very concise couple of sentences.

IMO, starsoul think it can be ignored: "swept under the carpet" so the saying goes. Blaming on culture or tribalism doesn't address the issue, but just shifting blame.

And I am not blaming Islam or the Sharia, but wondering if Sharia is dealing with, or as you say addressing the issue. I seriously don't think all Muslims or Muslim societies commit this honor killings, but where and when it happened, it should be dealt with in a legal manner, and I believed that the governments, societies and clerics have failed in their duties to prevent such crime from happening.

And if the Sharia does address the issue, why aren't authorities and justice systems. Why aren't the governments, community leaders and clerics educating these people that it is wrong to murder via honor killings?

Yes, it's time we start being honest with ourselves and admit to the problems that exist within Islamic culture. Even if it's NOT directly tied to Islam (which I firmly believe it's NOT), then we have to start repairing our mindset to address the problem and fix it. IMO, PROPER education, dialogue, choices...these are what will start the ball rolling in helping Muslims realize that these acts are horrific and unacceptable. Time to stop burying our heads in the proverbial sand and prove honor killings aren't part of Islam by NOT DOING IT in the first place.

I agreed with everything you've said here.

It may be cultural or tribal problems, but it is also Muslim problem.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Here is another example of the politicians' real desire for Islam:
Pakistan overturns ban on booze . . . for export | News.com.au

 

[Starsoul]

@ gnostic, I never said honor killing does not happen in muslim countries, neither is it swept under the carpet, but fanning the fumes of this one incident with reference to shariah and islam, is one rhetoric that is oft repeated by pretentious liberal critics ( not saying you are one : )) who seem to blow the picture out of proportions by linking any twisted tale to islam which already has led to a gross misperception about isalm all over the world, esp for all those who'd never get the time to research their facts, and would just go with the impression which they are fed through their screens.

That is the issue that I was talking about and that is why I spoke of other issues, because one naturally compares a system of ideology and its practices by what is happening around everywhere. It is particularly bothersome when issues majorly highlighted with special reference to Islam, have little to do with it. And bigger issues are swept under the carpet, and that is what I was trying to say, honor killing is just another murder, which has a name mis representing it, it is really just another murder out of jealousy, vindictiveness, or whatever and ESPECIALLY done by people who are not well read into Islam, which would make a lot of people, including muslims, sad to say.

SO, honor killing has nothing to do with this religion or shariah, which is the answer to your op ' shariah honor killing'. Thoughts on why it happens, or the causes of its incidence are a separate discussion, and none of them are supported by shariah.

 

[gnostic]

@ gnostic, I never said honor killing does not happen in muslim countries, neither is it swept under the carpet, but fanning the fumes of this one incident with reference to shariah and islam, is one rhetoric that is oft repeated by pretentious liberal critics ( not saying you are one : )) who seem to blow the picture out of proportions by linking any twisted tale to islam which already has led to a gross misperception about isalm all over the world, esp for all those who'd never get the time to research their facts, and would just go with the impression which they are fed through their screens.

That is the issue that I was talking about and that is why I spoke of other issues, because one naturally compares a system of ideology and its practices by what is happening around everywhere. It is particularly bothersome when issues majorly highlighted with special reference to Islam, have little to do with it.

Then, you should understand why such questions - about (some) Muslim families who commit such crimes - are put forward (by the likes of me). I want clarification and explanation.

You said I need to do research. And I am doing here, by asking questions, because at this time, I don't have time to a more thorough research. The easier way is to ask here, where there are several intelligent Muslims, who would know far more about the Sharia than I would.

Much of what I've learned about honor killings came from the news that I've heard over the last 5-6 years, when they happened. I know that many people here don't always trust the media, but I would absolutely know nothing, if there were no media reports to listen to, watch or read.

But because the media don't necessarily tell the whole stories (but then again, no historical literature, biographies or religious scriptures or traditions, ever tell the whole stories or being unbiased or objective), I seek information from people, like you and other Muslim members, hoping someone would provide sufficient information that I can learn from. Either you would confirm whatever sources I may have or dispel flawed sources.

Even we both know that not all Muslims resort to honor killing, but it does exist, and sometimes they are condoned by the very people you should be able to trust, like kinsmen, community leaders, clerics, authorities. You may blame it on culture or tribalism, or compare with it other cultures, the fact remained that it is a very real Muslim problem, even if it is not linked in any direct way to the Qur'an.

 

[beenie]

@ gnostic, I never said honor killing does not happen in muslim countries, neither is it swept under the carpet, but fanning the fumes of this one incident with reference to shariah and islam, is one rhetoric that is oft repeated by pretentious liberal critics ( not saying you are one : )) who seem to blow the picture out of proportions by linking any twisted tale to islam which already has led to a gross misperception about isalm all over the world, esp for all those who'd never get the time to research their facts, and would just go with the impression which they are fed through their screens.

That is the issue that I was talking about and that is why I spoke of other issues, because one naturally compares a system of ideology and its practices by what is happening around everywhere. It is particularly bothersome when issues majorly highlighted with special reference to Islam, have little to do with it. And bigger issues are swept under the carpet, and that is what I was trying to say, honor killing is just another murder, which has a name mis representing it, it is really just another murder out of jealousy, vindictiveness, or whatever and ESPECIALLY done by people who are not well read into Islam, which would make a lot of people, including muslims, sad to say.

SO, honor killing has nothing to do with this religion or shariah, which is the answer to your op ' shariah honor killing'. Thoughts on why it happens, or the causes of its incidence are a separate discussion, and none of them are supported by shariah.

Starsoul, I wholeheartedly agree that honor killings are not supported in Qur'an or Hadith, but to deny that it's a Muslim problem IS sweeping it under a rug. The US has a huge gang problem; nothing in the Constitution condones or condemns gang activity, yet it's a problem Americans must face and deal with. In the case of honor killings, education is KEY, and it starts with our religious teaching, whether we want to admit it or not.

Truth is, in most Islamic culture, the honor of a female is extremely important, and if you take a look at many "scholarly" opinions, you'll see that there is a repeating theme that girls are to be shielded and protected by their menfolk, and any time they go outside that circle, "fitna" is there. It makes it very hard for girls to explore life without constant scrutiny...especially in more remote, less-educated areas. This protection those menfolk offer extends to the maximum in these cases, and yes, the few will take matters into their own hands.

 

[TashaN]

Then, you should understand why such questions - about (some) Muslim families who commit such crimes - are put forward (by the likes of me). I want clarification and explanation.

You said I need to do research. And I am doing here, by asking questions, because at this time, I don't have time to a more thorough research. The easier way is to ask here, where there are several intelligent Muslims, who would know far more about the Sharia than I would.

Much of what I've learned about honor killings came from the news that I've heard over the last 5-6 years, when they happened. I know that many people here don't always trust the media, but I would absolutely know nothing, if there were no media reports to listen to, watch or read.

But because the media don't necessarily tell the whole stories (but then again, no historical literature, biographies or religious scriptures or traditions, ever tell the whole stories or being unbiased or objective), I seek information from people, like you and other Muslim members, hoping someone would provide sufficient information that I can learn from. Either you would confirm whatever sources I may have or dispel flawed sources.

Even we both know that not all Muslims resort to honor killing, but it does exist, and sometimes they are condoned by the very people you should be able to trust, like kinsmen, community leaders, clerics, authorities. You may blame it on culture or tribalism, or compare with it other cultures, the fact remained that it is a very real Muslim problem, even if it is not linked in any direct way to the Qur'an.

You have a point. If Muslim leaders weren't very vocal about the danger of honor killing, then it would keep going, and people who don't know that much about Islam would blame the religion itself for it and i don't blame them for it.

I think Muslims should be more educated and more vocal when it comes to the wrong doing which is happening around us.

Nevertheless, countries with deep tribal roots are most likely to fall for such a crime, no question about that.

 

[gnostic]

You have a point. If Muslim leaders weren't very vocal about the danger of honor killing, then it would keep going, and people who don't know that much about Islam would blame the religion itself for it and i don't blame them for it.

I think Muslims should be more educated and more vocal when it comes to the wrong doing which is happening around us.

Nevertheless, countries with deep tribal roots are most likely to fall for such a crime, no question about that.

I'd definitely agree with you (and with ssainhu too) that education may be the keys to stopping future honor killings. But the problem is also within the community leaders, law (courts and law enforcement) and government leaders, and even the clerics and scholars themselves that condone honor killings, because they also needed to be educated too.

I don't think that great many average Muslims have understanding about the law (Sharia) and how wrong is honor killing. And if the leaders (including clerics) have little understanding on what's in (and what's not in) the Sharia, then the average citizens will continue to blindly follow their lead.

Even though I'm not a Muslim, I can see that honor killing is wrong, on so many levels.