Shari'ah and Afghanistan

[firedragon]

In what sense?

Oh God. That would require a huge post I think. May I link you to a post, which won't do justice to your question but at least will give a preamble? Post 56. I just looked it up.

#56

 

[Spirit of Light]

sayyid qutb an influential Muslim brotherhood author said as much in “social justice in Islam”


Islam chose to unite earth and heaven in a single system, present both in the heart of the individual and the actuality of society, recognizing no separation of practical exertion from religious impulse. ... The center of its being and the field of its action is human life in its entirety, spiritual and material, religious and worldly. Such a religion cannot continue to exist in isolation from society, nor can its adherents be true Muslims unless they practice their faith in their social, legal and economic relationships

A society cannot be Islamic if it expels the civil and religious Laws of Islam from its codes and customs, so that nothing of Islam is left except rites and ceremonial.

It is true that Islam contain all 3 aspect of religious practice, political law and scociety/mundane lifestyle. But often one will see where a person focus most, so in my understanding it is not black and white to look at islam. It depend a lot also on how each muslim see the teaching how they understand it in their own life.

 

[England my lionheart]

It is true that Islam contain all 3 aspect of religious practice, political law and scociety/mundane lifestyle. But often one will see where a person focus most, so in my understanding it is not black and white to look at islam. It depend a lot also on how each muslim see the teaching how they understand it in their own life.

One mans Muslim is another’s apostate,IMO Islam isn’t a single entity just like Christianity,Sayyid Qutb wrote a book called “Milestones” which is arguably a fundamentalists bible and very influential.

So yes yes it’s possible for a muslim to see the teaching as they see it but there’s few places in the east where that is allowed.

 

[Spirit of Light]

One mans Muslim is another’s apostate,IMO Islam isn’t a single entity just like Christianity,Sayyid Qutb wrote a book called “Milestones” which is arguably a fundamentalists bible and very influential.

So yes yes it’s possible for a muslim to see the teaching as they see it but there’s few places in the east where that is allowed.

I should have added that what i wrote was from a P.O.V from Sufism And not from all forms of islam

 

[Rival]

But Christianity was not able to prevent the Dark Ages that engulfed Europe. It was open-minded European scholars who accessed new ideas from all over the world and incorporated them, who were able to bring about progressive changes in western society and helped the western mind to come out of the constrictions of past regressive conditioning.

There was no such thing as the dark ages. That's just a myth that's been around since Enlightenment people decided it. And Christianity was mostly responsible for such flourishing in Europe with ideas such as imago dei leading to notions such as humans rights and individual freedom. To say Christian thought had nothing to do with the shaping of Europe is nonsense. Without Christianity there would be no Europe.

@Augustus

 

[Augustus]

But Christianity was not able to prevent the Dark Ages that engulfed Europe. It was open-minded European scholars who accessed new ideas from all over the world and incorporated them, who were able to bring about progressive changes in western society and helped the western mind to come out of the constrictions of past regressive conditioning.

What do you classify as the 'Dark Ages' and what do you think caused them? What 'regressive' things were being driven by the church?

The 'progressive social changes' often have their roots in medieval canon law. The 'open-minded scholars' who translated the texts containing works in the Graeco-Arabic traditions were generally monks and clerics. The biggest preserver and copier of scientific literature and the primary funder of scientific investigation was the church.

Some scholarly views:


A widespread myth that refuses to die...maintains that consistent opposition of the Christian church to rational thought in general and the natural sciences in particular, throughout the patristic and medieval periods, retarded the development of a viable scientific tradition, thereby delaying the Scientific Revolution and the origins of modern science by more than a millennium.

Historical scholarship of the past half-century demonstrates that the truth is otherwise.
David C Lindberg in the Cambridge companion to science and religion


No institution or cultural force of the patristic period offered more encouragement for the investigation of nature than did theChristian church. Contemporary pagan culture was no more favorable to disinterested speculation about the cosmos than was Christian culture. It follows that the presence of the Christian church enhanced, rather than damaged, the development of the natural sciences.

Myth 1: That Christianity was responsible for the decline of ancient science - David C. Lindberg (in Galileo goes to Jail and other myths about science and religion)


Although they disagree about nuances, today almost all historians agree that Christianity (Catholicism as well as Protestantism) move many early-modern intellectuals to study nature systematically.4 Historians have also found that notions borrowed from Christian belief found their ways into scientific discourse, with glorious results; the very notion that nature is lawful, some scholars argue, was borrowed from Christian theology.5 Christian convictions also affected how nature was studied. For example, in the sixeenth and seventeenth centuries, Augustine’s notion of original sin (which held that Adam’s Fall left humans implacably dam- aged) was embraced by advocates of “experimental natural phi- losophy.” As they saw it, fallen humans lacked the grace to understand the workings of the world through cogitation alone, requiring in their disgraced state painstaking experiment and observation to arrive at knowledge of how nature works (though our knowledge even then could never be certain). In this way, Christian doctrine lent urgency to experiment.6

Historians have also found that changing Christian approaches to interpreting the Bible affected the way nature was studied in crucial ways. For example, Reformation leaders disparaged allegorical readings of Scripture, counseling their congregations to read Holy Writ literally. This approach to the Bible led some scholars to change the way they studied nature, no longer seeking the allegorical meaning of plants and animals and instead seeking what they took to be a more straightforward description of the material world.7 Also, many of those today considered “forefathers” of modern science found in Christianity legitimation of their pursuits. René Descartes (1596–1650) boasted of his physics that “my new philosophy is in much better agreement with all the truths of faith than that of Aristotle.”8 Isaac Newton (1642–1727) believed that his system restored the original divine wisdom God had provided to Moses and had no doubt that his Christianity bolstered his physics—and that his physics bolstered his Christianity.9 Finally, historians have observed that Christian churches were for a crucial millennium leading patrons of natural philosophy and science, in that they supported theorizing, experimentation, observation, exploration, documentation, and publication. (Noah J Efron - Ch9 in Galileo goes to jail and other myths about science and religion - Harvard University Press)

 

[ajay0]

There was no such thing as the dark ages. That's just a myth that's been around since Enlightenment people decided it. And Christianity was mostly responsible for such flourishing in Europe with ideas such as imago dei leading to notions such as humans rights and individual freedom. To say Christian thought had nothing to do with the shaping of Europe is nonsense. Without Christianity there would be no Europe.

@Augustus

What do you have to say about the burning of 'witches' , which killed many thousands of innocent Christian women in europe then! The many wars and battles for supremacy amongst Christian sects in europe is also nauseating as was their persecution of the Jews.

See, regressive socio-religious practices like the feudal casteism, sati, intolerance, close-minded arrogance with respect to the superiority of one's culture, all existed in the Hindu civilization too.

This resulted in the regression of Hindu society to the point of weakness and vulnerability to foreign invasions.

 

[Rival]

What do you have to say about the burning of 'witches' , which killed many thousands of innocent Christian women in europe then! The many wars and battles for supremacy amongst Christian sects in europe is also nauseating as was their persecution of the Jews.

See, regressive socio-religious practices like the feudal casteism, sati, intolerance, close-minded arrogance with respect to the superiority of one's culture, all existed in the Hindu civilization too.

This resulted in the regression of Hindu society to the point of weakness and vulnerability to foreign invasions.

I find it funny how folks talk about witch hunts as though they were a huge part of European history when really they were just a blip during the early modern period, with many competing explanations as to why. For 99% of European history the consensus was that witches are not real.

 

[Justanatheist]

I find it funny how folks talk about witch hunts as though they were a huge part of European history when really they were just a blip during the early modern period, with many competing explanations as to why. For 99% of Euro history, the consensus was that witches are not real.

And yet Christians are still killing child witches in Africa to this day!

 

[firedragon]

I find it funny how folks talk about witch hunts as though they were a huge part of European history when really they were just a blip during the early modern period, with many competing explanations as to why. For 99% of Euro history, the consensus was that witches are not real.

I think you should take a look at a snippet from the holocaust in historical context. "The overall evidence makes plain that the growth—the panic—in the witch craze was inseparable from the stigmatization of women.... Though there were male witches, when the witch craze accelerated and became a mass phenomenon after 1500 its main targets, its main victims, were female witches. Indeed, one strongly suspects that the development of witch-hunting into a mass hysteria only became possible when directed primarily at women." read Chapter 9. If you read about it in history it went on for 100s of years.

Of course its silly to blame this on Christianity per se, but this kind of dismissal is just that, baseless dismissal.

 

[Augustus]

What do you have to say about the burning of 'witches' , which killed many thousands of innocent Christian women in europe then!

That was 'Renaissance' era, not 'Dark ages'. During the 'Dark Ages' the Church position was that witches didn't exist and it was heretical to believe in them.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Lets look at apostasy

Classical canon law viewed apostasy as distinct from heresy and schism. Apostasy a fide, defined as total repudiation of the Christian faith, was considered as different from a theological standpoint from heresy, but subject to the same penalty of death by fire by decretist jurists.
Apostasy - Wikipedia

Church law is not regarded as divine law. It's subject to renewal in order to adapt to changing circumstances.

 

[sayak83]

The West may justly be accused of political interference by attempting to open Afghan society to notions of democracy when such ideas are incongruous with Islamic patriarchal society.

99.7% of Afghans are Muslim. It must be preferable for Muslims to opt for a Shari'ah system of law (I understand that there are four main variations within Sunni Islam) than for a system of law that does not recognise the Qur'an, or Sunnah.

Why are Muslims wanting to leave for the West when the ideal of Islamic law is about to be implemented?
It may appear threatening to some to see a 'pure' Islamic state arise, but the experiment (whether it be a Caliphate in Syria/Iraq or an Emirate in Afghanistan) should be seen as a honest attempt to demonstrate the Muslim way of life.

You believe that the Taliban, who primarily are a poppy producing drug mafia bank-rolled by underworld drug lords...is interested in an honest attempt at creating an Islamic state?
Opium: Afghanistan’s drug trade that helped fuel the Taliban

 

[Clara Tea]

The West may justly be accused of political interference by attempting to open Afghan society to notions of democracy when such ideas are incongruous with Islamic patriarchal society.

99.7% of Afghans are Muslim. It must be preferable for Muslims to opt for a Shari'ah system of law (I understand that there are four main variations within Sunni Islam) than for a system of law that does not recognise the Qur'an, or Sunnah.

Why are Muslims wanting to leave for the West when the ideal of Islamic law is about to be implemented?
It may appear threatening to some to see a 'pure' Islamic state arise, but the experiment (whether it be a Caliphate in Syria/Iraq or an Emirate in Afghanistan) should be seen as a honest attempt to demonstrate the Muslim way of life.

12 year old girls are now being forced to marry (including sex). Is this the politics of which you wrote?

When the Ayatollah Khomeni seized power, most residents of Iran thought that he would return Iran to a moral state of religion (one without a phony Shah appointed by the United States). Yet, when Khomeni came to power, he proclaimed that American educated Iranians must be put to death (because they are Americanized). Harsh penalties were imposed. Engineers were Iran's hope for the future, industrially and militarily.

In America, a century ago, teachers used to hit students with rulers. I suppose one might say that Khomeni was a Rullah with a ruler.

Khomeini regime committed gross human rights abuses, finds tribunal

RE: Khomeni:
"The Hague, the Iran tribunal found that the Islamic regime had committed "gross human rights abuses" including torture, sexual violence, extra-judicial executions and unjust imprisonment."

"graves of the executed stretched "as far as the eye can see"

"entire families were eliminated"

"as a child he was forced to shoot any survivors in the head. Nice added: "Truckloads of bodies were tipped into mass graves"

"hanged from the ceiling by their arms, flogged on the soles of their feet, beaten, deprived of sleep, kept in solitary confinement, subjected to mock executions and forced to watch other prisoners being tortured – or were tortured in the presence of their children"

"shoot his fellow prisoners"

BUT SHOULD THE US INTERVENE? IT IS EXPENSIVE TO POLICE THE WORLD, AND WE LOSE SOLDIERS. IS IT OUR RIGHT TO TELL OTHERS HOW TO LIVE? SHOULD WE FREE THE ENSLAVED AROUND THE WORLD?

WHEN MOSES ESCAPED EGYPT, GOD ORDERED HIM BACK TO FREE THE OTHERS. (THERE IS YOUR ANSWER).

 

[Clara Tea]

You believe that the Taliban, who primarily are a poppy producing drug mafia bank-rolled by underworld drug lords...is interested in an honest attempt at creating an Islamic state?
Opium: Afghanistan’s drug trade that helped fuel the Taliban

The US military estimates that 60% of the income of the Taliban comes from narcotics. But, can we trust the military after they told lies to promote war? Also, we must consider the idea that an invading super force (United States) may have forced the Taliban to get income from alternative (narcotic) sources. Did the Taliban derive income from narcotics before the US occupied Afghanistan?

How the US military's opium war in Afghanistan was lost

"Dr Mansfield has studied the Afghan opium industry for more than two decades. He says heroin production leaves certain tell-tale signs and he wasn't seeing any of them.

Yet American Forces were claiming the attacks were a success."

"Dr Mansfield and his team are now convinced that the US Air Force was using 21st century fighter jets to bomb little more than mud huts."

Apparently the military continues to tell lies, and many people now think that these lies are true. This is why they think that the military is justified to continue bombing civilians in mud huts (because the military tells lies and asserts that they are narcotics factories).

 

[Clara Tea]

Turkey is a basketcase atm.

Especially at Thanksgiving.

 

[Clara Tea]

It isn't so simple, though. Some believe that the capital punishment for certain crimes (or supposed crimes) was specific to a certain cultural and historical context. Some believe that the religion doesn't order such punishment in the first place and interpret the texts differently.

Your view aligns with a traditional and literalist view of Islam, but hopefully you realize that millions of Muslims don't subscribe to this view or even wish to be governed by it in their countries or communities.

Weren't these "average citizens" the ones who were drafted into military service when the US attacked? Now that they have fought their enemy, are they less prone to fight again?

 

[Clara Tea]

One mans Muslim is another’s apostate,IMO Islam isn’t a single entity just like Christianity,Sayyid Qutb wrote a book called “Milestones” which is arguably a fundamentalists bible and very influential.

So yes yes it’s possible for a muslim to see the teaching as they see it but there’s few places in the east where that is allowed.

Once zealots seize power, those "few places" might be many.

 

[England my lionheart]

Once zealots seize power, those "few places" might be many.

If that were to happen it would be the opposite.

 

[Redemptionsong]

12 year old girls are now being forced to marry (including sex). Is this the politics of which you wrote?

When the Ayatollah Khomeni seized power, most residents of Iran thought that he would return Iran to a moral state of religion (one without a phony Shah appointed by the United States). Yet, when Khomeni came to power, he proclaimed that American educated Iranians must be put to death (because they are Americanized). Harsh penalties were imposed. Engineers were Iran's hope for the future, industrially and militarily.

In America, a century ago, teachers used to hit students with rulers. I suppose one might say that Khomeni was a Rullah with a ruler.

Khomeini regime committed gross human rights abuses, finds tribunal

RE: Khomeni:
"The Hague, the Iran tribunal found that the Islamic regime had committed "gross human rights abuses" including torture, sexual violence, extra-judicial executions and unjust imprisonment."

"graves of the executed stretched "as far as the eye can see"

"entire families were eliminated"

"as a child he was forced to shoot any survivors in the head. Nice added: "Truckloads of bodies were tipped into mass graves"

"hanged from the ceiling by their arms, flogged on the soles of their feet, beaten, deprived of sleep, kept in solitary confinement, subjected to mock executions and forced to watch other prisoners being tortured – or were tortured in the presence of their children"

"shoot his fellow prisoners"

BUT SHOULD THE US INTERVENE? IT IS EXPENSIVE TO POLICE THE WORLD, AND WE LOSE SOLDIERS. IS IT OUR RIGHT TO TELL OTHERS HOW TO LIVE? SHOULD WE FREE THE ENSLAVED AROUND THE WORLD?

WHEN MOSES ESCAPED EGYPT, GOD ORDERED HIM BACK TO FREE THE OTHERS. (THERE IS YOUR ANSWER).

Moses returned to free the Hebrew slaves, not the Egyptians living under pharaoh's rule.