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Shia Qaim vs Shia Clergy

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
In the contrary what Baha'is claim, Imam Mahdi(the 12th Shia Imam), i.e., Qaim, was biological boy of Imam Abi Muhammad, Hasan al-Askari(the 11th Shia Imam, the father of Qaim).

Narrated to us Abu Talib Muzaffar bin Ja’far bin Muzaffar Alawi Samarqandi:
Narrated to us Ja’far bin Muhammad bin Masud from his father Muhammad bin Masud Ayyashi: Narrated to us Adam bin Muhammad Balkhi: Narrated to me Ali bin Husain bin Harun Daqqaq: Narrated to us Ja’far bin Muhammad bin Abdullah bin Qasim bin Ibrahim bin Malik Ashtar that he said: Narrated to me Yaqoob bin Manqoosh that he said:

“I went to Abi Muhammad Hasan bin Ali(Imam Hasan Askari, father of Qaim) (a.s.) to find him sitting on his usual place in his house. There was a room to his right with a curtain at its entrance. I asked the Imam: Who is the master of this affair? He replied: Lift that curtain. When I lifted the curtain I saw a boy aged eight or ten or a number around these years having a broad forehead, fair complexion, pearl-like upper lip. Soft and clear palms, broad shoulders, long knees, a mole on the right cheek, hair reaching to the forehead, came out and went on to sit in the Imam’s lap. The Imam said: This is your master.

Sources,
Bihar al-Anwar by Majlisi, vol. 52, pg. 25
Kamaluddin by Saduq, pg. 407

It is recorded in Bihar-alanwar that Amirul Momineen (a.s.) said:

“The Day of Resurrection will not come until the eye of the world is gouged out and redness appears in the sky, and this redness is the tears of the bearers of the Throne weeping for the people of the earth, and until a bad gang appears propagandizing for my progeny whereas in fact they are free from my progeny. It is a gang with no morals, prevailing over the evils, deceiving the tyrants and destroying the kings (rulers). It is a gang that appears in Kufa headed by a black-faced and black-hearted man, who is weak in faith, with no morals, hybrid, mean and rude. He is circulated among prostitute mothers from the worst progenies. May Allah have no mercy upon them. They will appear in the same year, in which my disappearing son with the red banner and the green flag will reappear."


We notice that accordin to this Hadith, the Qaim is son of Imam Ali. Then it becomes obvious, in the same way that Qaim is Son of Imam Askari, He is also Son of Imam Ali and Son of the Prophet.
This Sonship, signifies that He is from their lineage and Spiritually in their Likeness.
The infallible Imams said, their Hadithes are difficult.
Only the Imams themselves could have explained them. After them, the Qaim Himself.
 

spirit_of_dawn

Active Member
Any ways, there is no proof, that, life in other forms do not exist in other planets.
As regards to Minerals, there could be other compositions of Minerals in other planets that are not found on earth. All these are signs of God, and this is what Baha'u'llah teaches.

If you search on the internet, similarly others tried to find mistakes in holy Books such as Quran to refute them. If they succeeded, they can succeed now! Today is no different!

Oh wait, you don't say!!! That is so amazing, so Baha'u'llah says there are minerals on other planets!!! In fact so much that no one can count them. OMG, what a great piece of unknown knowledge that he has given to humanity!!! Such a great sign from God!!!

Don't waste our time. Shoghi already explained what Baha'u'llah meant by "creature" on other planets... clearly showing Baha'u'lla's false so called scientific statements.

Have a nice day.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Oh wait, you don't say!!! That is so amazing, so Baha'u'llah says there are minerals on other planets!!! In fact so much that no one can count them. OMG, what a great piece of unknown knowledge that he has given to humanity!!! Such a great sign from God!!!

Don't waste our time. Shoghi already explained what Baha'u'llah meant by "creature" on other planets... clearly showing Baha'u'lla's false so called scientific statements.

Have a nice day.

But that's not how a point is proved.

If you want to prove that Baha'u'llah was wrong, you need to:
1. First prove what kind of Creatures Baha'u'llah was speaking, based on the interpretation of Abdulbaha and Shoghi Effendi.
2. Then prove, that according to proven science such creatures do not exist in other planets.

If you cannot, then you did not make your point. But you only claimed so or thought so, which you are entitled to your opinion.


P.S, because my time is limitted, I can only reply to good arguments that are supported by logic and science. If I don't reply to some posts, it is because I did not think it is as such.
Have a nice day.
 

spirit_of_dawn

Active Member
But that's not how a point is proved.

If you want to prove that Baha'u'llah was wrong, you need to:
1. First prove what kind of Creatures Baha'u'llah was speaking, based on the interpretation of Abdulbaha and Shoghi Effendi.
2. Then prove, that according to proven science such creatures do not exist in other planets.

If you cannot, then you did not make your point. But you only claimed so or thought so, which you are entitled to your opinion.


P.S, because my time is limitted, I can only reply to good arguments that are supported by logic and science. If I don't reply to some posts, it is because I did not think it is as such.
Have a nice day.

Baha'u'llah was speaking about aliens according to Shogi and Abdu'l-Baha who even thinks there aliens on the stars. And if you think all planets have aliens then I have no further argument with you.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
"whoever says that Prophets are Lord, or [twelve] Imams are Lord or Prophet, we[i.e., 12 infallible Imams] would repudiate him/her in this world and in the Hereafter."
(source, Oyun Akhbar al-Ridha by Sheykh Sadugh, vol. 1, pg. 217)


Recorded Sayings of Imam Ali:

"Hold it there. I am one of the slaves of Muhammad,(s.a.) the Messenger of Allah."

Source: Al-Kafi, H 234, Ch. 6, h 5

"Bereft of you be your mother! I am a salve among the slaves of the Messenger of Allah (s.a.)."

Source: Al-Kafi, H 237, Ch. 6, h 8

"I am two years younger than my Lord", and that of another: "Between myself and my Lord there is no difference except that I come first in the state of slavery."

Source: http://www.al-islam.org/inner-secre...muli/introduction-and-biographical-background


Other Hadithes:

“There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and them; except that they are Thy servants, and are created of Thee.”
Source: Various Shia Books.

Muhammad said: "I am He and He is I, save that I am I, and He is He" Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahl_al-Tustari




But why Quran and Traditions repeatedly says, do not take Messengers as God?

My comment: Because, the Christians said, Jesus is incarnation of God. What Islam teaches, is, Messengers are Manifestations of God, not His incarnation!
 

spirit_of_dawn

Active Member
Other Hadithes:

“There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and them; except that they are Thy servants, and are created of Thee.”
Source: Various Shia Books.

Muhammad said: "I am He and He is I, save that I am I, and He is He" Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahl_al-Tustari

Do you ever get tired of lying? The first quote whose source you claim is various Shia books is a forgery made by Baha'u'llah in the book of Iqan that you have quoted verbatim. The second source is a Sufi Mystic... the more you try the more the falsity of Baha'ism will be exposed...
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Do you ever get tired of lying? The first quote whose source you claim is various Shia books is a forgery made by Baha'u'llah in the book of Iqan that you have quoted verbatim. The second source is a Sufi Mystic... the more you try the more the falsity of Baha'ism will be exposed...

"لا فَرقَ بَينَکَ و بَينَهُم إلّا بانهُم
عِبادُکَ وَ خَلقُکَ.

Looks like, when our friend cannot find the Hadith, he thinks it does not exist!
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
.

So, Imam Mahdi, the biological boy of Imam Hasan Askari has born at 246A.H. and is now in his magor occultation.
.





Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad and Ali ibn Ibrahim his father all from ibn Mahbub from al-Ri’ab from abu Basir from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.
"Allah sent revelation to ‘Imran saying, "I will grant you a perfect and holy son who would cure the blind and the lepers and bring the dead back to life by Allah, the permission of Allah and I make him a messenger to the israelites." ‘Iran than told it to his wife, Hanna, mother of Mary all about it When she conceive with the baby Mary and she thought to herself that the baby will be a boy. When she give birth to Mary she said, "Lord, I have given birth to a girl and boys are not like girls. A girl can not be a messenger. Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most gracious, has said, "Allah knows to who have you given birth. When Allah, the Most High, granted Jesus to Mary he was the boy promised to ‘Imran. He promised Jesus to ‘Imran. When we would say something about a man from us and that thing would be fount in his sons
or grand sons then you must not deny it."
2
Muhammad ibn ’Isma‘il has narrated from al-Fadl ibn Shadhan from Hammad ibn ‘Isa from Ibrahim ibn ‘Umar al-Yamani from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.
"If we would say something about a man and it would not be found in him but it would be found in his sons or his grandsons you must not reject it. It is because Allah does what he wants.". Al-Kafi


Why do you think, Imams said this?
 
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spirit_of_dawn

Active Member
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad and Ali ibn Ibrahim his father all from ibn Mahbub from al-Ri’ab from abu Basir from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.
"Allah sent revelation to ‘Imran saying, "I will grant you a perfect and holy son who would cure the blind and the lepers and bring the dead back to life by Allah, the permission of Allah and I make him a messenger to the israelites." ‘Iran than told it to his wife, Hanna, mother of Mary all about it When she conceive with the baby Mary and she thought to herself that the baby will be a boy. When she give birth to Mary she said, "Lord, I have given birth to a girl and boys are not like girls. A girl can not be a messenger. Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most gracious, has said, "Allah knows to who have you given birth. When Allah, the Most High, granted Jesus to Mary he was the boy promised to ‘Imran. He promised Jesus to ‘Imran. When we would say something about a man from us and that thing would be fount in his sons
or grand sons then you must not deny it."
2
Muhammad ibn ’Isma‘il has narrated from al-Fadl ibn Shadhan from Hammad ibn ‘Isa from Ibrahim ibn ‘Umar al-Yamani from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.
"If we would say something about a man and it would not be found in him but it would be found in his sons or his grandsons you must not reject it. It is because Allah does what he wants.". Al-Kafi


Why do you think, Imams said this?

"sons" or "grandsons", not great great great great great great ....... great sons.

According to another Hadith, Qaim would be born in the Last Day

http://reference.bahai.org/fa/t/o/KF/kf-59.html

"Last Day"?!!! The Arabic text mentions "Akhir al-zaman" which means "the end of times" a period that starts from the proclamation of Muhammad.


Propaganda of a Shia Clergy:

Ayatullah Borojerdi had said, whenever a Hadith is used in Bahai Books to prove their view, say, for so and so reason, this Hadith is weak, or fake, or something is missing.

See this Book, page 552:

http://www.theknowledgeofgod.com/books/Baha_in_Quran.pdf

If he said this he would be correct and we already showed this in Baha'u'llah's works.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
"sons" or "grandsons", not great great great great great great ....... great sons.

You avoided the question. See my question again. It is in Bihar, Volume 51-53, related to Qaim. I asked why the Imams said that. How would this Hadith be related to Qaim, and helps to recognize true from false?



"Last Day"?!!! The Arabic text mentions "Akhir al-zaman" which means "the end of times" a period that starts from the proclamation of Muhammad.

Then according what you say, the Muslims who lived after proclamation of Muhammad were all living during the Akhar alzaman. This contradicts with Hadithes regarding Akhar alzaman, for according to many words recorded in Islam, Akhar alzaman had not come. Here are some examples:


قال: واخذوا مضاجعهم فصاروا إلى رقدتهم إلى اخر الزمان عند خروج المهدي يقال: ان المهدي يسلم عليهم فيحييهم الله عز وجل.


http://lib.eshia.ir/70790/1/137/"اخر_الزمان"_(الی_|_حتی)



يا عين كم ذا تسفحين مدامعا ... شوقا لقرب المصطفي ودياره
إن كان صرف الدهر عاقك عنهما ... فتمتّعي يا عين في اثاره
وبالجملة فاثاره صلّى الله عليه وسلّم وماثره هى الواسطة العظمى في تشييد هذا الدين المحمدي [1] العظيم البنيان الذى هو ببركته صلّى الله عليه وسلّم باق إلى اخر الزمان،
دامت معجزة القران التى هي أكبر المعجزات باقية بين أظهرنا، فلا ينسخ الماضى الات، فشريعة المصطفى عليه الصلاة والسلام باقية إلى يوم القيامة، ومعجزة القران الباهرة الدلائل ليست- ولله


http://lib.eshia.ir/44861/1/436/"اخر_الزمان"_(الی_|_حتی)



In the above Hadithes, It says 'الی اخر الزمان'.

Meaning 'Until Akhar alzaman', or Until End of the Time, when the True Religion remains. In another words, Akhar Alzaman would not come, till True Religion is disapeared. Just note carefully. Does it make sense if someone is living during Akhar alzaman, says Until Akhar Alzaman? Or until Qiyamat? This can only make sense if End of the time had not come yet.
Akhar Alzaman, according to many Hadithes is a a period of time, when True Religion would have Vanished, and in that time a Man from the Lineage of Muhammad would rise to establish the True Religion.

"The Apostle of God said: `There will come a time for my people when there will remain nothing of the Qur'an except its outward form and nothing of Islam except its name and they will call themselves by this name even though they are the people furthest from it. The mosques will be full of people but they will be empty of right guidance. The religious leaders (Fuqaha) of that day will be the most evil religious leaders under the heavens; sedition and dissension will go out from them and to them will it return.'"
- Ibn Babuya, Thawab ul-A'mal
- Also, in Al-Bihar, by Al-Majlisi, Vol 13, Page 155
- Also, in Kanz Al-amal #766


Moreover, you can never find any Hadith that the first Imam till the 11 th Imam were born in Akhar alzamaan. Only the Mahdi is said, will be born in Akhar alzaman.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
"And now, consider this other tradition, and observe how all these things have been foretold. In “Arba‘ín” it is recorded: “Out of Baní-Háshim there shall come forth a Youth Who shall reveal new laws. He shall summon the people unto Him, but none will heed His call. Most of His enemies will be the divines. His bidding they will not obey, but will protest saying: ‘This is contrary to that
which hath been handed down unto us by the Imáms of the Faith.’"

In the “‘Aválim,” an authoritative and well-known book, it is recorded: “A Youth from Baní-Háshim shall be made manifest, Who will reveal a new Book and promulgate a new law”; then follow these words: “Most of His enemies will be the divines.”


Bahaullah, Iqan, p. 54-55
 
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InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Do you ever get tired of lying? The first quote whose source you claim is various Shia books is a forgery made by Baha'u'llah in the book of Iqan that you have quoted verbatim. The second source is a Sufi Mystic... the more you try the more the falsity of Baha'ism will be exposed...


Do you ever get tired of making false accusation and everytime proved you to be wrong?
You seem to be trolling than making any logical discussion. .... Added to ignore list
 

mojtaba

Active Member
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad and Ali ibn Ibrahim his father all from ibn Mahbub from al-Ri’ab from abu Basir from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.
"Allah sent revelation to ‘Imran saying, "I will grant you a perfect and holy son who would cure the blind and the lepers and bring the dead back to life by Allah, the permission of Allah and I make him a messenger to the israelites." ‘Iran than told it to his wife, Hanna, mother of Mary all about it When she conceive with the baby Mary and she thought to herself that the baby will be a boy. When she give birth to Mary she said, "Lord, I have given birth to a girl and boys are not like girls. A girl can not be a messenger. Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most gracious, has said, "Allah knows to who have you given birth. When Allah, the Most High, granted Jesus to Mary he was the boy promised to ‘Imran. He promised Jesus to ‘Imran. When we would say something about a man from us and that thing would be fount in his sons
or grand sons then you must not deny it."
2
Muhammad ibn ’Isma‘il has narrated from al-Fadl ibn Shadhan from Hammad ibn ‘Isa from Ibrahim ibn ‘Umar al-Yamani from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.
"If we would say something about a man and it would not be found in him but it would be found in his sons or his grandsons you must not reject it. It is because Allah does what he wants.". Al-Kafi


Why do you think, Imams said this?
Your saying is meaningless. The birth of Qaim(pbuh), i.e. Imam Mahdi, in the time of Imam Hasan Al-Askari( biological father of Imam Mahdi Al-Qaim ), is frequently mentioned in Shia authentic books. See,
1.Al-Kafi, V.1, P.33
2.Kamaluddin by Saduq, P.424
3.Al-'Irshad by Sheykh Mofid, V.2, P.354
4.Tafsiil Wasa'il Al-Shia by al-Horr al-Amoli, V.12, P.89
5.Al-Qibah by Sheykh Tusi, P.246
6.Bihar Al-Anwar by Majlisi, V.52, P.25

Here, I select and mention two authentic Hadiths from many narrated ones in those books,

1.Mo'awiya ibn Hokaym, and Mohammad ibn Ayyoob ibn Nuh, and Muhammad ibn Uthman Al-'Amreyyo, all of them narrated,

When we were in the house of Father of Muhammad( Muhammad is the name of Qaim ), i.e. Imam Hasan Al-Askari(pbuh), while we were 40 men, he(pbuh) showed his son and said,' This is your Imam after me and my Successor upon you, obey him and do not divide your religion after me, so that you will be destroyed.
(Source, Kamaluddin by Saduq, P.435)

2.Abdullah ibn Ja'far Al-Hemyariyye narrated,
I asked from Uthman ibn Sa'id Al-'Amoriyye,' Do you, yourself saw the Successor of father of Muhammad( Note that Muhammad is the name of Qaim )[ i.e., Imam Hasan Al-Askari ]?'
He replied, ' Yes by Allah. And his neck was grown like this.' And refered to his neck.
(Sources, Al-Kafi by Koleini, V.1, P.330/ and Kamaluddin by Saduq, P.435)
 

mojtaba

Active Member
Dear Mojtaba, are you familiar what Baha'I Scriptures say about Muhammad, Son of imam Hassan?

I quote Baha'u'llah on this:

All that thou hast heard regarding Muḥammad the son of Ḥasan—may the souls of all that are immersed in the oceans of the spirit be offered up for His sake—is true beyond the shadow of a doubt, and we all verily bear allegiance unto Him. But the imáms of the Faith have fixed His abode in the city of Jábulqá, which they have depicted in strange and marvellous signs. To interpret this city according to the literal meaning of the tradition would indeed prove impossible, nor can such a city ever be found. Wert thou to search the uttermost corners of the earth, nay probe its length and breadth for as long as God’s eternity hath lasted and His sovereignty will endure, thou wouldst never find a city such as they have described, for the entirety of the earth could neither contain nor encompass it. If thou wouldst lead Me unto this city, I could assuredly lead thee unto this holy Being, Whom the people have conceived according to what they possess and not to that which pertaineth unto Him! Since this is not in thy power, thou hast no recourse but to interpret symbolically the accounts and traditions that have been reported from these luminous souls. And, as such an interpretation is needed for the traditions pertaining to the aforementioned city, so too is it required for this holy Being. When thou hast understood this interpretation, thou shalt no longer stand in need of “transformation” or aught else.
Know then that, inasmuch as all the Prophets are but one and the same soul, spirit, name, and attribute, thou must likewise see them all as bearing the name Muḥammad and as being the son of Ḥasan, as having appeared from the Jábulqá of God’s power and from the Jábulṣá of His mercy. For by Jábulqá is meant none other than the treasure-houses of eternity in the all-highest heaven and the cities of the unseen in the supernal realm. We bear witness that Muḥammad, the son of Ḥasan, was indeed in Jábulqá and appeared therefrom. Likewise, He Whom God shall make manifest abideth in that city until such time as God will have established Him upon the seat of His sovereignty. We, verily, acknowledge this truth and bear allegiance unto each and every one of them. We have chosen here to be brief in our elucidation of the meanings of Jábulqá, but if thou be of them that truly believe, thou shalt indeed comprehend all the true meanings of the mysteries enshrined within these Tablets.
But as to Him Who appeared in the year sixty, He standeth in need of neither transformation nor interpretation, for His name was Muḥammad, and He was a descendent of the Imáms of the Faith. Thus it can be truly said of Him that He was the son of Ḥasan, as is undoubtedly clear and evident unto thine eminence. Nay, He it is Who fashioned that name and created it for Himself, were ye to observe with the eye of God.

http://www.bahai.org/library/authoritative-texts/bahaullah/gems-divine-mysteries/4



Are you familiar with the Traditions regarding Jábulqá?

In Islamic Traditions, that signifies Spritual Realm. This city does not exist in the physical plane.
Authentic Hadiths reject this belief of Baha'is. Imam Hasan Al-Askari( father of Qaim, Muhammad-pbuh ) said to one of his companions that he can find Qaim in Medina, a city in Arabia, not in Jabilqa.

Abu Hashim Al-Ja'fari narrated,
I asked from Imam Hasan Al-Askari(pbuh),'O my master, do you have any boy?' He(pbuh) replied,'Yes.' Then I asked,' If a happening happened for you( i.e., you passed away ), where can I ask my questions from him?' Imam replied,' In Medina '.
(Source, Al-Kafi, V.1, P.328)
 

mojtaba

Active Member
According to another Hadith, Qaim would be born in the Last Day

http://reference.bahai.org/fa/t/o/KF/kf-59.html

Then according what you say, the Muslims who lived after proclamation of Muhammad were all living during the Akhar alzaman. This contradicts with Hadithes regarding Akhar alzaman, for according to many words recorded in Islam, Akhar alzaman had not come. Here are some examples:
قال: واخذوا مضاجعهم فصاروا إلى رقدتهم إلى اخر الزمان عند خروج المهدي يقال: ان المهدي يسلم عليهم فيحييهم الله عز وجل.


http://lib.eshia.ir/70790/1/137/"اخر_الزمان"_(الی_|_حتی)



يا عين كم ذا تسفحين مدامعا ... شوقا لقرب المصطفي ودياره
إن كان صرف الدهر عاقك عنهما ... فتمتّعي يا عين في اثاره
وبالجملة فاثاره صلّى الله عليه وسلّم وماثره هى الواسطة العظمى في تشييد هذا الدين المحمدي [1] العظيم البنيان الذى هو ببركته صلّى الله عليه وسلّم باق إلى اخر الزمان،
دامت معجزة القران التى هي أكبر المعجزات باقية بين أظهرنا، فلا ينسخ الماضى الات، فشريعة المصطفى عليه الصلاة والسلام باقية إلى يوم القيامة، ومعجزة القران الباهرة الدلائل ليست- ولله


http://lib.eshia.ir/44861/1/436/"اخر_الزمان"_(الی_|_حتی)



In the above Hadithes, It says 'الی اخر الزمان'.

Meaning 'Until Akhar alzaman', or Until End of the Time, when the True Religion remains. In another words, Akhar Alzaman would not come, till True Religion is disapeared. Just note carefully. Does it make sense if someone is living during Akhar alzaman, says Until Akhar Alzaman? Or until Qiyamat? This can only make sense if End of the time had not come yet.
Akhar Alzaman, according to many Hadithes is a a period of time, when True Religion would have Vanished, and in that time a Man from the Lineage of Muhammad would rise to establish the True Religion.

"The Apostle of God said: `There will come a time for my people when there will remain nothing of the Qur'an except its outward form and nothing of Islam except its name and they will call themselves by this name even though they are the people furthest from it. The mosques will be full of people but they will be empty of right guidance. The religious leaders (Fuqaha) of that day will be the most evil religious leaders under the heavens; sedition and dissension will go out from them and to them will it return.'"
- Ibn Babuya, Thawab ul-A'mal
- Also, in Al-Bihar, by Al-Majlisi, Vol 13, Page 155
- Also, in Kanz Al-amal #766


Moreover, you can never find any Hadith that the first Imam till the 11 th Imam were born in Akhar alzamaan. Only the Mahdi is said, will be born in Akhar alzaman.
Thank you. You, yourself have rejected yourself.
You said in the first part that according to a Hadith, Qaim would be born in the last day( which its correct translation is the end of time ). While, you next brought in the second part that Qaim will rise up in the last day( correctly, the end of time )[إلى اخر الزمان عند خروج المهدي]. You also said that the end of the time is when True Religion is disapeared!!! This is a clear contradiction!

According to the Hadiths, Islamic Ummah(nation) is the last and final nation( See, Shia Muslim - Baha'I: Period of Muslims, posts #2 and #5 ), so that the time of Islam is indeed the end of times and because the time of the birth of Qaim and also the time of his rising are both in Islamic time and also they are so far from the begining of the time of Islam, they both were called the end of time in the Hadiths.

Good luck!
 
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mojtaba

Active Member
"And now, consider this other tradition, and observe how all these things have been foretold. In “Arba‘ín” it is recorded: “Out of Baní-Háshim there shall come forth a Youth Who shall reveal new laws. He shall summon the people unto Him, but none will heed His call. Most of His enemies will be the divines. His bidding they will not obey, but will protest saying: ‘This is contrary to that
which hath been handed down unto us by the Imáms of the Faith.’"

In the “‘Aválim,” an authoritative and well-known book, it is recorded: “A Youth from Baní-Háshim shall be made manifest, Who will reveal a new Book and promulgate a new law”; then follow these words: “Most of His enemies will be the divines.”


Bahaullah, Iqan, p. 54-55
I do not see this two Hadiths in Shia books.
Rather, I found an authentic Hadith in which Imam Sadiq said that before Qaim, would rise up 12 men who are out of Baní-Háshim[ i.e., fake qaims ].

الحسن بن علي الوشاء، عن أحمد بن عائذ، عن أبي خديجة، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: " لا يخرج القائم حتى يخرج قبله اثنا عشر من بني هاشم كلهم يدعو إلى نفسه​
Abi Khadija narrated,
Imam Sadiq(pbuh) said, ' Qaim will not rise up till 12 men, who are out of Baní-Háshim would rise up before him. All of them[ 12 fake qaims ] would summon the people unto themselves. '

Sources,
Bihar Al-Anwar by Allama Majlisi, V.52, P.209
Al-Irshad by Sheykh al-Mofid, V.2, P.372
etc.

Bab was certainly one of those 12 men.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Your saying is meaningless. The birth of Qaim(pbuh), i.e. Imam Mahdi, in the time of Imam Hasan Al-Askari( biological father of Imam Mahdi Al-Qaim ), is frequently mentioned in Shia authentic books. See,
1.Al-Kafi, V.1, P.33
2.Kamaluddin by Saduq, P.424
3.Al-'Irshad by Sheykh Mofid, V.2, P.354
4.Tafsiil Wasa'il Al-Shia by al-Horr al-Amoli, V.12, P.89
5.Al-Qibah by Sheykh Tusi, P.246
6.Bihar Al-Anwar by Majlisi, V.52, P.25

Here, I select and mention two authentic Hadiths from many narrated ones in those books,

1.Mo'awiya ibn Hokaym, and Mohammad ibn Ayyoob ibn Nuh, and Muhammad ibn Uthman Al-'Amreyyo, all of them narrated,

When we were in the house of Father of Muhammad( Muhammad is the name of Qaim ), i.e. Imam Hasan Al-Askari(pbuh), while we were 40 men, he(pbuh) showed his son and said,' This is your Imam after me and my Successor upon you, obey him and do not divide your religion after me, so that you will be destroyed.
(Source, Kamaluddin by Saduq, P.435)

2.Abdullah ibn Ja'far Al-Hemyariyye narrated,
I asked from Uthman ibn Sa'id Al-'Amoriyye,' Do you, yourself saw the Successor of father of Muhammad( Note that Muhammad is the name of Qaim )[ i.e., Imam Hasan Al-Askari ]?'
He replied, ' Yes by Allah. And his neck was grown like this.' And refered to his neck.
(Sources, Al-Kafi by Koleini, V.1, P.330/ and Kamaluddin by Saduq, P.435)

Dear Mojtaba,

I have to remind you that, according to Imam Sadiq, we should only accept a Hadith, that has a Witness from Quran or sayings of the Prophet:

In a Book called Wasail, it is recorded from Imam Sadiq:


اذا ورد عليکم حديث فوجدتم له شاهداً من کتاب الله او من قول رسول الله صلي الله عليه وآله و الا فالذي جاءکم به اولي به


And also in the Book Kafi:

"ما لم يوافق من الحديث القرآن فهو زخرف"

Meaning, Imam Sadiq said, if they give you a Hadith from us, which has a Witness from Quran, or Sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, it is acceptable. But if it is different from the sayings of Quran, then it is false.

The idea that, the Qaim 'before rising' will have a minor occultation, has no witness within Quran or Hadithes of Muhammad. So, it is not acceptable.

But i can bring Hadithes from Imams, that the Qaim's Qeybat (disappearence) is after He rises, Not before. And I have Witness for this from Quran and Hadithes of Muhammad. Thus, this is acceptable.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Authentic Hadiths reject this belief of Baha'is. Imam Hasan Al-Askari( father of Qaim, Muhammad-pbuh ) said to one of his companions that he can find Qaim in Medina, a city in Arabia, not in Jabilqa.

Abu Hashim Al-Ja'fari narrated,
I asked from Imam Hasan Al-Askari(pbuh),'O my master, do you have any boy?' He(pbuh) replied,'Yes.' Then I asked,' If a happening happened for you( i.e., you passed away ), where can I ask my questions from him?' Imam replied,' In Medina '.
(Source, Al-Kafi, V.1, P.328)
Firstly the belief that Mahdi is in city of Jabiqa, is from the sayings of Imams, and you can find many references regarding this from Shia Sources. But when it was believed Imam is in Jabilqa, that was related to the time Before He rises.
That is why, many of the Shias used to claim they had been in that city and had seen the Imam. But such belief must have been interpreted symbolically, as the Imams had said in their Hadithes there are Mutishabihat too. Since there is no such city literally found, it is Mutishabihat. But many had followed such hadithes literally, thus were mislead.

As regards to Hadithes that the Qaim will appear in Mecca and Medina, these are after His rising, not before. Just read the Hadithes carefully, you will see.
 
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