Shiva v's Vishnu

[Satsangi]

I told that,because I wanted to get idea from Hindus about how they deal with criticism from Ambedkar Buddhism(which obviously is very much naive.)

Friend Anti-religion,

You may not find this answer satisfactory. But I would BLINDLY believe a realized Pragat Guru like Adi Shankara as I think he is way ahead of me in the field of spirituality; he has reached the end of Sadhana. I just don't care if some idiots criticize some things. Society is a society and will always remain a society; I have nothing to do with it.

Nowadays it is actually opposite- it is bad to be a Brahmin and good to be a Shudra. Infact, many castes are competeing to be classified as Shudra castes.

Regards,

 

[Onkara]

This question is for all Advaitins- how do u see Lord Krishna or any other Avatar? Are they same as any other human? If so, why did the Acharya of Advaitins- Shri Adi Shankara say- Bhaj Govindam moodh mateh........? Do advaitins see a "realized" person same as God? If u say yes, then God becomes Saakar and if u say no, then u are seeing duality.......think and answer.

I am not trying to argue out the Advaitins, I have the highest of regards for Shri Adi Shankara who by the way argued out the Buddhists. Obviously Adi Shankara favored the Hinduism which in some people's opinion have "lesser values" than Buddhism. Adi Shankara always followed his Varnashram Dharma, made his Shishyas follow Varnashram Dharma. Even after meeting the Chandala (Siva himself) and accepting defeat from Him, he continued to follow the Varnashram Dharmas. Can any Advaitin explain this?

Regards

Hi Satsangi
From my understanding of an Advaitin perspective Lord Krishna (or another Avatar) is the incarnation of Brahman. It is Brahman in its saguna form. The Avatars are not the same as Humans, although the appearance (maya) would lead the human mind to believe so. They are accepted as the scripture describes.

All people are Brahman, so weather a person is realised or not then they are still Brahman. They are still limited to prakriti (laws of nature) because they are not separate from Brahman and neither is prakriti. That is the unity, the non-duality. It is maya which stops a person from realising that they are Brahman. Once they realise this and come to see through maya then they see the unity in the diversity. They are still limited (saguna), but boundlessly free (nirguna).

Devotion is still acceptable in Advaita Vedanta, it is still permissible to perform Bhakti, so Adi Shankara’s continued worship is not a contradiction to Advaita, but rather there no longer remains a goal in worship i.e. not seeking liberation or material benefits. I am yet to find Adi Shankara's own words on this, I would be greateful if someone has if they would share the reference, from an acadamic perspective.

When Nisargadatta Maharaj was asked why he still did puja, he replied "Why give up old habbits now?" (rough quote from my memory and not exact).

Once one comes to realisation then all paths have sense, even non-sanatana dharma paths.

Anti-Religion and Krishnakanta, thanks for your replies to my earlier question on the perspective of ISKON.


Om!
Onkarah.

 

[Metempsychosis]

Friend Anti-religion,
You may not find this answer satisfactory. But I would BLINDLY believe a realized Pragat Guru like Adi Shankara as I think he is way ahead of me in the field of spirituality; he has reached the end of Sadhana.

I wont take that blindly tough..There is no point in comparing with Adi Sankara who is a Siva incarnation.I told that duality is obvious.Non-duality does not deny duality.There is no point in men with finite ego telling themselves to be equal to Brahman.

I just don't care if some idiots criticize some things. Society is a society and will always remain a society; I have nothing to do with it.

Thats why I dont care about any dharma that deals with society.Ambedkar Buddhist will come under that definition.

Nowadays it is actually opposite- it is bad to be a Brahmin and good to be a Shudra. Infact, many castes are competeing to be classified as Shudra castes.
Regards,

Thats very much true,there is reverse caste-ism now.

 

[Riverwolf]

This question is for all Advaitins- how do u see Lord Krishna or any other Avatar? Are they same as any other human? If so, why did the Acharya of Advaitins- Shri Adi Shankara say- Bhaj Govindam moodh mateh........?

What does that mean?

Do advaitins see a "realized" person same as God? If u say yes, then God becomes Saakar and if u say no, then u are seeing duality.......think and answer.

Well, at the core essence, all of us are God. A "realized" person is simply someone who has fully "realized" this fact.

Then again, I'm still a beginner. I may have a different answer when I'm more mature.

I am not trying to argue out the Advaitins, I have the highest of regards for Shri Adi Shankara who by the way argued out the Buddhists. Obviously Adi Shankara favored the Hinduism which in some people's opinion have "lesser values" than Buddhism. Adi Shankara always followed his Varnashram Dharma, made his Shishyas follow Varnashram Dharma. Even after meeting the Chandala (Siva himself) and accepting defeat from Him, he continued to follow the Varnashram Dharmas. Can any Advaitin explain this?

Regards

Well, I can't because I don't know much about the life of Adi Sankara.

 

[Riverwolf]

By the way, do not waste this precious life in following any "isms" or "ists". There is nothing like a Pragat Brahma realized Guru; have a deep desire for such a Guru and you will definitely find such a Guru. Srimad Bhagvatam gives about ?39 qualities of a Saint. Find such a Saint. When u meet a true Guru and live as per his guidance, one day your questions will disappear instantly in His presence; no questions asked. All the isms, ists and logies etc etc will appear empty; the Shashtras will appear to be living in him.

Regards,

Regards

Where in the Bhagavatam does it give those qualifications?

 

[Satsangi]

Where in the Bhagavatam does it give those qualifications?

In the 11th Skandha of Shrimad Bhagvatam there are 30 (not 39- sorry) Gunas of a true Saint listed (11/11/29-33). The 39 qualities that are present in an Avatar of God are listed in first Skandha. (1/16/26-28)

Regards,

 

[Satsangi]

Hi all,
The tej of Atma and Parmatma are QUALITATIVELY the same, but one is a small lamp and the other is equal to crores of Suns. Yes, qualitatively it may not be possible to distinguish Atma from Brahman, but in one is a drop and the other is an ocean. This does not mean all of us are Gods; yes we all are divine POTENTIALLY.

Regards

 

[Satsangi]

Devotion is still acceptable in Advaita Vedanta, it is still permissible to perform Bhakti, so Adi Shankara’s continued worship is not a contradiction to Advaita, but rather there no longer remains a goal in worship i.e. not seeking liberation or material benefits. I am yet to find Adi Shankara's own words on this, I would be greateful if someone has if they would share the reference, from an acadamic perspective.


Om!
Onkarah.

Thanks for a great reply.

Who is the devotion to? Self? Govinda? Ishtadeva? The worship or devotion without any goal (Nishkaam Bhakti) is the highest form of Bhakti Yoga too.

Regards,

 

[Onkara]

Who is the devotion to? Self? Govinda? Ishtadeva? The worship or devotion without any goal (Nishkaam Bhakti) is the highest form of Bhakti Yoga too.

Regards,

Thanks Satsangi, for your kindness
The question of "who worships who" in Advaita becomes the ultimate question and most Gurus will answer it by asking the question of the devotee: "Who is it that worships?". The question is intended to provide an answer to arise in the questioner, rather than for an answer to come once more from an external source i.e. taking the Guru's word for it. In answering the question oneself unity rather that duality it witnessed.

The devotee's answer is "It is me who worships". The Guru's question then is "And who are you?" The Devotee's answer is "I am That which the Upanishad assert me to be. I am Brahman; Aham Brahmasi!".

So the devotion is to none other than Oneself as Brahman. Humbled by the realisation the Devotee pays his devotion as love and gratitude. Whereas before the worship was for realisation (jivamukti), now the devotion is for its own sake. The devotion is to Brahman who appears to be separate from you due to your mind being outwardly pointed. It is Maya (according to Advaita) which causes the earlier confusion, but now Maya too bows to Brahman.

Onkarah.

PS to reader; Please don't be put of by the term "Devotee", I use it here as we are talking about devotion, not in a sense of being anything inferiror.

 

[Satsangi]

Friend Onkarah,
Here is my take on Advaita. I think it is one of the way on how a devotee experiences/realizes the Brahman. In Bhakti Yoga when u are praying to your Ishtadev, sometimes all the Indriyas and Anthakaran get totally absorbed in the Ishtadev and at one stage the ego also gets absorbed in Him. At that point, ONLY HE REMAINS; u are no more (one forgets oneself and others including surroundings totally).

Regards,

 

[Onkara]

Friend Onkarah,
Here is my take on Advaita. I think it is one of the way on how a devotee experiences/realizes the Brahman. In Bhakti Yoga when u are praying to your Ishtadev, sometimes all the Indriyas and Anthakaran get totally absorbed in the Ishtadev and at one stage the ego also gets absorbed in Him. At that point, ONLY HE REMAINS; u are no more (one forgets oneself and others including surroundings totally).

Regards,

Hi Satsangi
I enjoyed reading your perspective.

Thanks
Onkarah.

 

[Satsangi]

Hi Satsangi
I enjoyed reading your perspective.

Thanks
Onkarah.

Thank You Onkarah.

When Only He remains; I think Shruti "Aham Brahmasmi" comes to life, but there is no real "Aham " at that point.

Regards,

 

[Onkara]

Hi Satsangi
That is a great observation! In my experience of remembering Aham Brahamsi the barriers are dropped as you say, this is true in my experience also. It is all embracing instead of all negating. In the act of knowing myself and my universe there is no longer any duality. The body is no longer our limiting adjunct. Later during the day the mind still raises questions, throws in objections, but this is a part of Brahman.

Do you feel or experience any difference when thinking of Vishnu or Shiva or any other form or deity?

I ask as perhaps there arise different sensation when we focus our mind on Krishna, for example, in the Bhagavad Gita? Perhaps others can related to a different sensation (in want for a better word) when thinking of their ishtadeva.

I am interested as to where this might lead us, philosophically and empirically?

Kind regards, Onkarah.

 

[Satsangi]

Hello Onkarah,

A great question about meditating on Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu or Lord Krishna. When I meditate on Lord Shiva; I get the sensations of what I have described in my post in the thread "ponder". Lord Shiva is like a Sphatika Shivalinga- clear - Nirguna- He appears exactly as the One which ur mind sees Him as, but in reality He is undescribable. I get vibrations of Bliss, extreme but effortless renunciation, Gyan of the Brahman. Rarely only, I think of Lord Shiva as the "Aghoresh"; even in that form I have had vibrations of a "strictness" but with great Love.

Lord Krishna's meditation starts with the vibrations of love. But beneath all those vibrations if one goes deeper, then u get the feeling of the same Nirgun form of Shri Krishna like Lord Shiva. Whoever fixes their Indriyas with whatever intent on Him; he by the form of Krishna becomes Nirgun himself. Beneath all the leelas of Shri Krishna, if you look deeply, He was an extreme renunciate even though He was a King. Whoever fixed their mind on Shri Krishna with whatever intent, they attained salvation inspite of all their faults or goodness (e.g Gopis who looked at Him as friend etc, Kansa and Putna who looked at Him as enemy.) This the power of the form of Shri Krishna- He is like a tej which destroys all the faults that come in contact with Him and no faults touch Him - He is Nirgun.

In my opinion, "philosphically and empirically" are not very important. Only important is how spiritually it advances a devotee. Lord Krishna's worship starts with love for Him/His leelas and ends with the Gyan and true renunciation. Lord Shiva's devotion starts with some renunciation and Gyan and then as u have a true Bliss of the Lord u develop immense love for Him. Sometimes I consider Lord Krishna and Lord Vishnu as the same "Nirgun Shiva" with a new look and new leelas.

Regards,

 

[bansal2008]

EKAM SAD VIPRA BAHUDA VEDANTI.

BRAHMA, VISHNU, MAHESH, DEVI ETC are part of the same consiousness who existed before the creation. It was present in Nirguna FOrm and for the purpose of creation, it took the Saguna form. If you worship any one of these saguna form, you are worshipping all of those at the same time and ultimately the same INFINITE BRAHM (NIRGUNA).

 

[bansal2008]

I told that,because I wanted to get idea from Hindus about how they deal with criticism from Ambedkar Buddhism(which obviously is very much naive.)

Ambedkar relied on western translated hindu text "Manu Smriti" which was all mistranslated and hence his criticism.

 

[Satsangi]

EKAM SAD VIPRA BAHUDA VEDANTI.

BRAHMA, VISHNU, MAHESH, DEVI ETC are part of the same consiousness who existed before the creation. It was present in Nirguna FOrm and for the purpose of creation, it took the Saguna form. If you worship any one of these saguna form, you are worshipping all of those at the same time and ultimately the same INFINITE BRAHM (NIRGUNA).

The above depends on which philosophy u follow.

Some do believe that Saguna form is the prime form and Nirgun characteristics are described so that people do not think about Saguna form of God like a human. Meaning, the Saguna form, although appears like human, is not at all human but is all divine.

Yet, some would argue that God is God; He is neither Saguna nor Nirguna. He is what He is .... and that's the end of it; a real devotee does not get into all these flimsy arguments.

Regards,

 

[bansal2008]

The above depends on which philosophy u follow.

Some do believe that Saguna form is the prime form and Nirgun characteristics are described so that people do not think about Saguna form of God like a human. Meaning, the Saguna form, although appears like human, is not at all human but is all divine.

Yet, some would argue that God is God; He is neither Saguna nor Nirguna. He is what He is .... and that's the end of it; a real devotee does not get into all these flimsy arguments.

Regards,

I never associate myself to any sect of Hinduism. I follow Sanatana Dharma i.e. Vedas, Upanishads, Gita etc. Limiting GOD to just one philosophy, one sect, one definition is just impossible. It is without beginning and without end, unimaginable.

 

[Radhakrishnaji]

Shiva and Vishnu are one!

 

[Radhakrishnaji]

God is God be it Shiva or Vishnu