• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Should a woman's bodily autonomy be disregarded when it comes to pregnancy?

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Your not questioning it, your contradicting it. It is the book subjected to more scrutiny than any other, after 2000 years what it says is well established. It is only a matter of agreeing with it or as you have, assuming it is wrong pre-emptively. I don't see an inquiring mind here, I see one in enmity towards the core doctrines of a faith. That is not sarcasm, it is an intellectual deduction.
You are incorrect sir, but that is usually the case when one assumes that they know the thoughts of another. My retort would be that you are hypocritically going against the spirit of that same faith by passing judgment on my devotion to my faith and my identity as a Christian. I think that everyone could benefit from a bit of examination of this nature, but that is merely my opinion, and I would never judge anyone for their religious beliefs or lack thereof. I am an inquisitive mind, and your incorrect assertions regarding the infalibility of the Bible when that is not even possible to measure indicates this clearly. To say that the Bible is textually accurate or divine revalation in its entirety could only be shown by knowing the mind of God. Neither you nor any other man can or should make this claim. It is a showin of true ignorance.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Evolution selects the strong at the expense of the weak. Hitler at least sincerely believed he was doing the same. The only difference is that evolution gave Hitler a more capable brain than a bear or a jackal so he had the capacity to do what nature does at an extremely accelerated pace.
Not exactly. Natural selection selects for the organisms best suited to their environment.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
They were wrong. I was making a general statement. 95% of our founding fathers were Christians. MLK claimed that we have rights to equality under God, not under Paine. Not only do forms of slavery exist in nature but complete and fatal patristic relationships exist in nature. Since evolution of naturalism can't assign value to anything and has never created any two things equal then you must transcend nature and appeal to the supernatural if you demand actual equality. Either that or simply assume it without justification.
They would probably say you're wrong.

So who's right?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Why is God the only option? How can you be so sure? Couldn't it be possible that we just don't have the required understanding/information and/or we haven't discovered the source yet? The lack of knowledge should not be used as a positive proof of the supernatural.
Again, I have never seen anyone as opposed to doctrine and still claimed to have faith before. Most of the atheists I know are not this consistently opposed the the biblical God. That is not a moral judgment, it is just a deduction. I have never seen a greater contrast between a posters title and their comments (I take that back, I do know of one). Anyway, I can agree to some extent. I can't demonstrate what supernatural entity is responsible for morality. The only thing I do know is that nature can't generate objective "should be's". I of course believe the biblical God the most by far probable supernatural source for objective morality but that is not as simple as my claim about nature. I know nature can't produce moral duties and values, I believe they do in fact exist and have reasons, I also believe God the source with reasons, but only the first is a certainty. I did not use it as proof of anything. My argument has been two propositions not any claim to which one is true.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
With no single religious flavor having majority control to impose their 'objective' morality, we're stuck with this pliable one.
I meant pliable in the way it is used.

Mallum in se is not very pliable at all.

but Mallum prohibitum is virtually infinitely pliable.


My point was that this causes so much confusion that when I use the word morality I mean the former not the latter. It would be better to call the latter "ethics" to avoid the confusion. A term that accounts for anything actually accounts for nothing.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
But, the version of God you prefer, the christian one, isn't objective at all. Many humans that God has created don't even have a concept of the existence of Christianity. That being the case, how on earth could it be "universal objective truth", when it isn't universally available? The version of God you prefer, is the subjective basis of moral truth, FOR YOU.
Hello Madtown your new to me so let's see what you have got here.


1. The biblical God is uber-objective. He is eternal, not subject to anything's opinion about anything, hold sovereignty over everything, is bound by nothing but his own nature, and is that which everything else has it's ultimate truth in. If he is not objective the word is meaningless.
2. Not only is the biblical God such even the generic God of philosophy is all those things. God as a generic concept is the greatest conceivable being possessing every great making property.
3. You say I prefer that God. No I do not. I find that concept of God pre-existing me for thousands of years and find it so logically unavoidable from the effects I find in the universe I granted that he exists and received confirmation of that fact spiritually (something no other major faith even offers to all believers). If I had selected a God I preferred, it would have been one that demanded I be promiscuous, eat junk food, and appointed my king of earth. Not one which I found I had morally failed to the point of meriting death.
4. I never said the Biblical God is the only concept of a God that has created. Most other God's are derivative but a few are primary. My God has by far the most evidence IMO and for me personally I have been given proof. I argue from that point of view but do not deny other points of view exist.
5. Objective morality defined in this context. Is a set of moral values and duties that are true independently of the opinions of it's adherents. God's would be and for everyone including me, even if no one including me believed it.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Sure. Alas, that does not explain why I hate sport, that goes beyond driving a sport car, so much, lol.

Ciao

- viole
I notice on your profile page that you live in Switzerland. I've not been there but been close as I spent a few days near the Swiss border in Italy. Beautiful area.
 

Madtown

Member
Hello Madtown your new to me so let's see what you have got here.


1. The biblical God is uber-objective. He is eternal, not subject to anything's opinion about anything, hold sovereignty over everything, is bound by nothing but his own nature, and is that which everything else has it's ultimate truth in. If he is not objective the word is meaningless.

Hi Robin. Yeah, fairly new here, and don't hang around consistently enough to be familiar.

How can the biblical God be uber-objective, when this version of God isn't uber-accessible and uber-available? What if God placed you by birth in Saudi Arabia, would you still believe the biblical God is uber-objective? What if God placed you by birth in a primitive tribal society in the Amazon rain forest jungle, and you had no idea Christianity was even a thing, because you've never heard of it? In that case, the biblical God certainly isn't uber-objective for you, you have no idea it exists.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The bible is no the source of a single moral. God is. If God exists his morality is objective. There have been libraries worth of books that clearly spell this out as a necessity. If God's morality is not objective the term no longer has any meaning.
Notice the word "if"-- it's a biggy.

But there's more. Let's assume God exists, which I do believe will fit quite well into your paradigm, then how do we know what are exactly his teachings, especially since there are not only many religions, but also many variations within Christianity itself. There are roughly 300 main Christian denominations, thousands of independents, and I'm sure most of them feel that they teach the "true gospel".

So, with this much of a milieu, are you going to claim that your Baptist faith somehow has a monopoly on the truth, whatever that may be? And there are different conferences of Baptists, and they ain't all the same by any stretch of the imagination (my father grew up Baptist, most of my cousins on my father's side used to be Baptist, and one of my two best friends used to be Baptist, so I've been to many Baptist churches and services over my lifetime). So, which Baptist conference teaches the "true gospel"?

Also, I asked why is it that reincarnation is somehow illogical but I see no response from you on that. I don't believe in reincarnation, but I ain't going so far as to claim that it's illogical.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Hi Robin. Yeah, fairly new here, and don't hang around consistently enough to be familiar.

How can the biblical God be uber-objective, when this version of God isn't uber-accessible and uber-available? What if God placed you by birth in Saudi Arabia, would you still believe the biblical God is uber-objective? What if God placed you by birth in a primitive tribal society in the Amazon rain forest jungle, and you had no idea Christianity was even a thing, because you've never heard of it? In that case, the biblical God certainly isn't uber-objective for you, you have no idea it exists.
The evidence is very strong that if he was born in Saudi Arabia that he would be far more apt to hyp Islam versus Christianity.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
If you wish.
That was too easy.



The question is if subjectivity cannot be made objective. If all our experiences are ultimately reduceable to physics and information theory, I don't see why not.
Even reducing them all to these that only leaves us with what is not what should be. No natural law or entity can tell us what we should do. Gravity can only say I will fall if I jump off the cliff. It can't say I shouldn't do so. For that we have to invent goals like maximizing human health. In most cases these would be universal and innocuous but in other they would have the greatest consequences and the least obvious conclusions imaginable.



I am sorry but this is mainly due to your lack of knowledge on the subject.
It woukd be like saying that it is a miracle that email exists given that the fax got extinct and deduce that there cannot be evolution of communication systems. You really have to defeat your boredom if you want to discuss these things seriously.
That is actually based on a quote by an atheist evolutionary scientist but requires a judgment call so I would bother defending it. Regardless evolution is balanced on a knife edge in many ways. If you want to see how non-intuitive evolution is just listen to an atheist like Dawkins discuss it. Despite being famous for denying them he will use words like design and intent constantly because the evidence argues so strongly for it. However these points were not critical, ignore them if you want to.

Mass extinctions are a point for evolution, not a point against.
I thought evolution was about survival. That is the thing about it I can't stand the most. Everything no matter how contradictory is said to be evidence for it. I think you probably have in mind life surviving an asteroid or something but that is not what I mean. I am talking about one species wiping out another. No matter what you had in mind evolution is going to lose the race in the end. All life will be over come.



It selects genes, not individuals. That is why you have less problems to kill an ant than a dog, presumably.
Your talking about genetics, I am talking about the end result. Genes would be on one side of an equality and survival of the strongest or fittest on the other side. Your talking mechanism not result.



Well, no. A 200 millions years old fossil of a cow would destroy evolution.
I would bet any amount of money I had that it would not, but I agree with you that it should. The theory evolves more than what it describes. But I am trying to steer this away from a biological debate. They are just to boring.



I am not sure what your point is. That the world is a dangerous place speaks for evolution, not against it. This is why sharks did not evolve a lot in the last millions of years. They have basically no predator.
How is the absence of a predator a success? Evolution just is, it does not try and meet goals. And by the way killer whales, other sharks, and man (the greatest predator in natural history) all hunt sharks. If the survival of something was the goal ten evolution is a good basis for patterning things, if human morality is the goal it is not.



Well, I don't know whether you have kids. As a man you can't ever be sure, lol. They don't give a rip about root canals.
Perhaps I am a Jesuit and have lived on top of a twenty foot pole since I was 13 years old. Their not caring about root canals brings up a point (I cannot remember what the original point was), morality can be like tooth care. You do not care about it until you find out those stories about it were true and you would give anything to go back and change your world view but it is to late in many cases.



Yes, and that is exactly what happened. He has been invented.
The thing I appreciate about good humor is if I can not predict it coming. That is why I like Monty Python, no one can see what they do coming. However this reply I saw coming when I made my claim but figured you were too sophisticated to take the easy pot shot. I never learn.



Assuming does not entail existence of the assumption. Especilly when we assume different versions of morality.
That is my point. Without God there is no ultimate truth to our assumptions, with God there is. You can place as many biological, genetic, evolutionary, and whatever ideas even objective ones on one side of the equality but the other side will always be opinion and preference.



It is not in ll cases. Otherwise we would forbid abortion. I don't see any right in a bunch of human cells on some Petri dishes. But I see the right of people who might profit from research in that field. You call it life, I call it personhood. They do not necessarily cohincide.
What we do and what we should do are not the same thing. What we do is grant that human life has sanctity, as Chesterton said we just disagree on when that sanctity can be cancelled.



Therefore stomping kindergarteners is a malum prohibitum, while stomping roses is a malum in se. Did I get that right? :)
Nope, exactly backwards. Actually this is more complex. If God exists and grants property rights both would be in se if he does not both would be prohibitum.


Why not? If naturalism is true, it could very well be. If a meterorite wipes us out, do you think that it wlll change its natural trajectory at the last moment because of the (self declared) sacredness of human life?
Indirectly it could. If life has inherent sacredness then God exists. If God exists he will not let an asteroid wipe us out at least according to my understanding of his word. I went back and read your claim and I have come to understand I don't understand what your saying.



Do we? And who is going to guarantee me that this source exists and is reliable? Some other fallible humans?
That is an epistemological question to an ontological claim. Since we all disagree we obviously are in need of an objective fact of the matter. How we come to know what it is, is important but not relevant to my claim.



I m not a theist anymore.
Who did you believe in Thor, Oden, or Getty Lee?



Facts are facts. It is our job to make the best out of it. Or turn to real nihilism. Outside this planet, nobody cares, really.
No one exists outside the planet to care as far as well can tell.



For a moment I thought that things that explain everything, do not explain anything. ;)
That is the third time I didn't get it. With the one exception above maybe your sense of humor is so superior to even Monty Python that not only can I not see it before it gets here, I can't even get it when it is here.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
A mathematician should well know that it is virtually impossible to come up with Amount A being 95% accurate as compared to Amount B unless one knows exactly what Amount B is. Since we have no originals, and since we have no clue if earlier scribes were as careful as later scribes, the figure is nonsensical.
I am not a mathematician. In fact I may soon be a Saudi Arabian F-15 technician. I got a degree in math because I could not finish my engineering degree fast enough, it was like a consolation prize. Your getting this mixed up. 95% is the amount of difference between A and the oldest group of B's we can find. Since we can and have found very very old B's then we can get a good idea of what the average error rates would be past B which I did not state. IOW if a modern bible agrees 95% with several of both mainstream Alexandrian texts, Byzantine texts, Antioch texts, Vatican codices, etc...... from 1500 years ago it is very unlikely that it was much different in the 400 years prior to that. Especially when we find fragments from those years that agrees with modern bibles. I did not give any numbers for those earliest years so your mathematical error did not occur.

Also not what scholarship does with other texts. The texts on Caesar's Gallic wars have 10000 years between the originals (which are known to have been propaganda when written anyway) and the one or two extant copies we have yet the Gallic wars are claimed to be factual in colleges around the world. The next best is the history of the Peloponnesian wars and it is said to be 95% accurate despite not having a meaningful fraction of the early manuscripts the bible has.

We have much the same problem with the "N.T.", although granted not as much as we do with the "O.T.", in that we have no originals, plus what's missing is where the synoptic gospels were derived from, along with the questionable authorship of some of the other books. There's various theories but no convincing evidence.
The point I am making is that I am granting the higher end often spectrum of any rational estimation of errors and they still do not effect core doctrine to any meaningful extent, and secondary doctrines only slightly. We can assume for some reason that the text preserved to less than 5% error rates for 1500 years or more was completely corrupted and only copied by insane asylums if we want but evidence suggests very similar error rates in all likely hood were true even when not known.

I imagine the textual integrity of the OT varies widely by book. Meaning some are known to be highly accurate and some are just not known. I know the Pentateuch is extremely hard to access at least by me.

Actually Einstein wasn't contradictory as much as he was quite vague. He sorta played a fine line between making it clear he didn't buy the Abrahamic concepts of God, and some have speculated that his reference to "God" was just a cloaked reference to the laws of physics. Probably the closest we have to a more specific reference is when he hypothesized that God may be "the energy of creation" itself.
If either vague or contradictory that would mean that laymen would have a hard time nailing him down. I really do not take Einstein's view on faith as any more meaningful that anyone's, on science it is a different story. IMO he is just a theological non-player. I have a lot more confidence in even those who disagree with me like Nietzsche or a brilliant modern scholar Sean Carol. I don't agree with them but I find them theologically compelling in many respects.

Could you please explain why you believe reincarnation defeats its own purpose?
Yes, but this will be very brief. The purpose of re-incarnation can by one or both to learn what is good and/or that good and evil are the same thing in some bizarre oriental pluralistic way and achieve enlightenment. It you make progress towards one or both goals you die and come back in a life form that reflect that progress. Anyway it's goal is an accumulation of knowledge but it for all practical purposes erases the data bank between each life. Setting aside for the moment the handful who claim to have fragmentary and incomplete knowledge of past lives (none of them remember being cows for some reason), the rest of us do not have any knowledge from past lives and instead start fresh with every new life span, and that is if we even are reborn as being sentient enough to even weigh moral issues at all. Without massive informational retention between lives it does not fulfill it's goal. It mechanism defies it's intention.

Also, I have to go out and do my walk, so I'll be gone for an hour or so, but I definitely want to mention some things about your "strange religions" comments on some previous posts.
Yes, I remember your very sensitive to any negative comments I make on any other faith. Ask away when you get back.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Sorry but perfectly is perfectly, so if there's errors of any type, it ain't perfect.
The perfect part is God's revelation to John. I am not even sure (but would be inclined to think it to be so) that it would apply to what John wrote. Lets assume I am saying God promised to reveal his revelation perfectly to John and to supervise his recording it.

1. As you have said we do not have what John wrote so we have nothing misspelled to counter my claim.
2. I can copy a bible, you can, a drunk can, God did not promise his word would be copied perfectly. In the copies is where you find misspellings.

So you cannot blame God for misspelling according to his promises. You might be able to demonstrate I do not clearly understood what God promised but not that God misspelled anything. My view is pretty much identical to the Chicago statement of faith on inspiration if you want it in a formal form.



I did not assign a "lower value" as I didn't assign any value at all. What I've consistently been saying is that we simply cannot determine what the percent or fraction may be because of insufficient evidence.
It depends on what your talking about. Determining the differences between early copies and today bible is relatively easy and straight forward. It may by in truth 93% accurate or 98% but it is not 60% accurate. If your talking about between the original and the extant copies of a book I would say high for most but agree that we cannot assign a value to that, and I don't think I have.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
You are incorrect sir, but that is usually the case when one assumes that they know the thoughts of another. My retort would be that you are hypocritically going against the spirit of that same faith by passing judgment on my devotion to my faith and my identity as a Christian. I think that everyone could benefit from a bit of examination of this nature, but that is merely my opinion, and I would never judge anyone for their religious beliefs or lack thereof. I am an inquisitive mind, and your incorrect assertions regarding the infalibility of the Bible when that is not even possible to measure indicates this clearly. To say that the Bible is textually accurate or divine revalation in its entirety could only be shown by knowing the mind of God. Neither you nor any other man can or should make this claim. It is a showin of true ignorance.
I said nothing about your devotion. I said your claims have all contradicted simplistic doctrines. I have even said your faith is between you and God, not me. I have been doing this a long time and been watching others do it for many decades. If I see half a dozen posts and determine the person is an atheist I can be wrong about their actual faith but not wrong in the character of their posts. I don't know what your true faith is and I don't even want to, but I do know you have adopted the contradictory position to every essential Christian doctrine I have mentioned. Your not even drawing a neutral skeptical position but a contrary one. God knows if you belong to him, I only know what you have said. The same bible that says do not judge (and it means morally, which I did not do), says to test everything.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Since we can and have found very very old B's then we can get a good idea of what the average error rates would be past B which I did not state. IOW if a modern bible agrees 95% with several of both mainstream Alexandrian texts, Byzantine texts, Antioch texts, Vatican codices, etc...

Sorry, but I have to be brief again.

Again, unless one has the originals to compare, the "95%" is worth no more than a hill of beans-- just sheer speculation. And even it if somehow were to be "95%" there's no way to tell if the originals had it right to begin with.

I really do not take Einstein's view on faith as any more meaningful that anyone's, on science it is a different story. IMO he is just a theological non-player.

I do believe it's likely that if you did some more reading on Einstein's religious approach you might well change your mind. Now, otoh, I have no clue whether he was right or wrong.

Yes, but this will be very brief. The purpose of re-incarnation can by one or both to learn what is good and/or that good and evil are the same thing in some bizarre oriental pluralistic way and achieve enlightenment. It you make progress towards one or both goals you die and come back in a life form that reflect that progress. Anyway it's goal is an accumulation of knowledge but it for all practical purposes erases the data bank between each life. Setting aside for the moment the handful who claim to have fragmentary and incomplete knowledge of past lives (none of them remember being cows for some reason), the rest of us do not have any knowledge from past lives and instead start fresh with every new life span, and that is if we even are reborn as being sentient enough to even weigh moral issues at all. Without massive informational retention between lives it does not fulfill it's goal. It mechanism defies it's intention.

.
Karma is more based on actions than belief, although the latter certainly has major influence on the former. With the belief in "many paths to God", there is no "one size fits all" belief in Hinduism. So, obviously you're off on the wrong foot to begin with.

All beings are considered sentient in reincarnation process, so even if one is reborn into a lower form, that doesn't mean that they can't move up.

So, how is this now illogical? Is it any more illogical than a belief in heaven?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
1. As you have said we do not have what John wrote so we have nothing misspelled to counter my claim.

Ah, now you've painted yourself into a corner. You say that the texts overall are "95%" accurate from the originals with the "N.T." being even higher than that, but now you're claiming that John was copied so incorrectly that myriads of misspellings and grammatical errors emerged in the oldest copies we have.

Me thinks you gotta problem.

Anyhow, you get a break as I gotta go until tomorrow.

Take care.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Not exactly. Natural selection selects for the organisms best suited to their environment.
Strongest is a relative term that depends on a goal or way in which it is strongest. I thought that your point was understood in the context of the term.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Hi Robin. Yeah, fairly new here, and don't hang around consistently enough to be familiar.
Either/or, rock on.

How can the biblical God be uber-objective, when this version of God isn't uber-accessible and uber-available? What if God placed you by birth in Saudi Arabia, would you still believe the biblical God is uber-objective? What if God placed you by birth in a primitive tribal society in the Amazon rain forest jungle, and you had no idea Christianity was even a thing, because you've never heard of it? In that case, the biblical God certainly isn't uber-objective for you, you have no idea it exists.

1. Neither availability or access is a property of objectivity. It appears you are not certain what objective means.

Generally, it means true independent of our opinion. Morally it means independent of the moral codes adherents. So if God said eating junk food was our moral duty, even if no one on earth knew it nor agreed it would still be true, and so objective.

2. Muslims born in Saudi Arabia do believe God is objective. They call him Allah. I happen to believe that Allah does not exist but if he did exist both he and his moral duties would be objectively true. Keep in mind I can do so, but am not claiming my God exists. I am making a deductive proposition. If God exists then objective morality exists. If objective morality exists then a very similar God to mine must exist. I am not assuming either exists. I am saying if either does then the other necessary must exist.

3. Your making a fundamental mistake so common that theists joke about it, as it is an intuitive but ultimately irrelevant mistake. To say X is objective is an ontological statement about X's nature. To respond with how I came to know X's nature is an epistemological issue and not relevant. It is the nature of objective things that how we come to know them is irrelevant. I can read about objective truths in the funny papers or the back of a cereal box and it is no less true because how I came to know it.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Notice the word "if"-- it's a biggy.
It's the biggest iffy. I am not assuming he does exist for that statement. I am deducing what necessarily follows if he exists.

But there's more. Let's assume God exists, which I do believe will fit quite well into your paradigm, then how do we know what are exactly his teachings, especially since there are not only many religions, but also many variations within Christianity itself. There are roughly 300 main Christian denominations, thousands of independents, and I'm sure most of them feel that they teach the "true gospel".
It would not matter one bit. The objective nature of a thing is not affected by our opinions about it. If God (mine) does exist then there are objective moral values and duties. That would remain exactly the same even if no one believed it. Your responding to an ontological proposition with an epistemological question. It is like measuring temperature with a ruler. For example no matter what anyone believed the sun has an average temperature per a given time. It is an objective fact (for that time period) no matter how we come to know it or if anyone comes to know it.

So, with this much of a milieu, are you going to claim that your Baptist faith somehow has a monopoly on the truth, whatever that may be? And there are different conferences of Baptists, and they ain't all the same by any stretch of the imagination (my father grew up Baptist, most of my cousins on my father's side used to be Baptist, and one of my two best friends used to be Baptist, so I've been to many Baptist churches and services over my lifetime). So, which Baptist conference teaches the "true gospel"?
I have already said other faiths have truth. I however do not believe they all have direct revelation. I believe the old and new testaments have the direct word of God as their original source and are accurate enough to justify faith. I did not select Baptists because they had the only truth, all the truth, or whatever else you suggested. I have one doctrine I will not compromise on among many I can disagree with but put up with. I found the Baptists to hold the most firmly to that one doctrine. So no faith has a monopoly on truth. I believe the bible has a monopoly on direct and recorded revelation (or a virtual one), and the Baptists to support what I consider the single most fundamental truth. Other denominations also hold to hat truth but Baptists are founded on it specifically. So I do no think anything you said is true of me or my views.

Also, I asked why is it that reincarnation is somehow illogical but I see no response from you on that. I don't believe in reincarnation, but I ain't going so far as to claim that it's illogical.
I typed one out, I will post this and then see what happened to it. If it did not get posted it is basically this. The purpose of the mechanism is to accumulate enough knowledge to become enlightened and realize opposites are the same in some bizarre oriental pluralistic way I guess, however it wipes the slate clean with each life and so can never reach the goal in theory.
 
Top