Should Abortion Be Made Illegal Based On The State You Live In?

[columbus]

I could go in more detail but, i think you are smart enough to see where i am going.

I'm not that smart.
Please go into more detail.

The biggest problem I see with the abortion issue is that it's mostly one gigantic gray area. There's virtually no clear bright lines. No solutions that don't contradict other ethical beliefs I hold.

So please do go into more detail.
Tom

ETA ~You could start by explaining why you disapprove of any abortion at all. Not everyone does. ~

 

[Sand Dancer]

Why You’re Told There’s a Constitutional Right to Abortion

One of the arguments against it is the right of the unborn fetus and when life begins.

Only life begats life, so it appears science backs up the Bible and that life begins at conception.

"Human Life comes into existence in just a fraction of an instant. You have a human egg and a human sperm and their sole purpose in life is to meet each other and fuse, to create a one cell human being."

When Does Life Begin | Just The Facts

"“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born jI consecrated you;
I appointed you a prophet kto the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5

The Bible does have some factual info in it, however, the above quote is not fact. And there is no reason to be bring religion into it in reference to governmental laws, unless you also want to include the Quran, Buddhist Canon, Satanic Bible, Rig Veda, etc.

 

[shmogie]

Declaring abortion to be murder is not a secular opinion but a religious one and not all religious people agree especially before viability. Ensoulment - Wikipedia has a discussion about when the developing fetus is ensoulded.

Secular people state that religious anti-abortion people are trying to impose religious judgement on a secular society.

And while anti-abortion people agree that pregnant women should be helped, I have no evidence of a serious attempt to provide all women who need it practical help: financial, emotional, legal etc.

What I see is propaganda.

Your statement that people who regard abortion as murder take that position based on religion.

No doubt some do, but I base it totally on the Constitution, and the law.

For 150 years before Roe, right back to the founding of the Republic, abortion was illegal. Certainly Jefferson, Madison, Morris, et. al. did not object to abortion being illegal, and they wrote the Constitution.

In Roe, where abortion was legalized, the Constitution was twisted and folded to come to a decision that was wanted by a liberal court.

All of the legal precedent of 150 years was thrown out the window.

The decision was made based upon pieces of amendments cobbled together to make the killing authorized as a matter of "privacy."

The decision stated for the purpose of abortion, the killed unborn were not "persons", yet you can murder a pregnant woman, and be charged with two murders.

Unborn babies after the first trimester are people, they look like people, their bodily systems function as they do in other people, they feel pain.

The Declaration of Independence says that people have the unfettered right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness

Abortion denies these to thousands every year. They are summarily executed in direct violation of the Constitution, and in direct violation of their fundamental human rights.

Abortion is truly murder according to the Constitution.

 

[Sand Dancer]

I think murder is already illegal. The problem is that some don’t think all people are really humans.

In the US, legal personhood starts at birth.

 

[Earthtank]

So please do go into more detail.

This is about as much detail as i would like to go in to since, the rest speaks for itself.

I disagree, for the most part, I think its very straightforward regardless of a person’s belief. Its people due to their own stupidity make it a grey area (oh and of course politics). If the mother and the baby are perfectly healthy then, abortion should not be allowed to take place. Abortion is not a correction for a mother’s stupid mistake or something to do because she or her and her husband changed their mind about the baby. Way too many abortions are being done simply for convenience when the mother and baby are perfectly healthy. There are many ways to avoid pregnancy this day and age yet, many women decide to be stupid, get pregnant then, revert to murder to fix their first mistake.

 

[Sand Dancer]

First, abortion is a "constitutional" right. .

It would be better to pass laws making a woman feel more secure in giving birth instead of aborting. Sadly, the GOP wants to pretend that they can pass laws punishing people for having sex before marriage. So they tend not to be interested in helping the woman in favor of punishing her. What about the guy?

 

[dfnj]

First, abortion is a "constitutional" right. However, there isn't strong basis for it.

"Abortion is not a constitutional right according to the strict text of the Constitution, but it has been justified as a constitutional right under the Fourth Amendment’s protection of privacy. In short, the constitutional right to abortion is found not in the Constitution itself, but in a loose reading of it.

I think abortion is like gun control. Just like guns are regulated so you can't buy a gun capable firing 5000 rounds per minute there needs to me some regulations around abortion. I think it is morally unethical to abort a fetus that is capable of living on it's own without being connected to umbilical cord. So I think late term abortions are pretty immoral.

Regardless, I would like to see abortion rates come down dramatically because of this:

https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/11/...campus-vending-machines-day-after-pill-plan-b

"In the fall of 2018, Yale’s Reproductive Justice Action League proposed a new plan to improve the health and wellness of its student population: emergency contraception vending machines. They wanted to join the dozens of other college campuses where emergency contraception vending machines have been quietly popping up for the past decade, making it significantly easier for students to take action in the wake of a broken condom or forgotten pill."

Getting rid of pregnancy is like buying and chewing gum! Woman have no excuse to get an abortion with these vending machines! Soon abortion will be a thing of the past or so rare it becomes irrelevant in conversations! This is really good news for people who have moral problems with abortion.

 

[columbus]

No doubt some do, but I base it totally on the Constitution, and the law.

Nowhere in the Constitution is murder defined. Nor is it defined in the Bible.

Abortion is a new and different moral issue, created by modern medical science, that just didn't exist when the Constitution and Bible were being formulated.

In other words, you can't expect guys who are long dead to solve this moral issue for you. You've got to get educated about the modern world, think through your moral principles,(and be honest about them, global information technology will call out your hypocritical b.s.) then decide what you're going to do.
Tom

 

[dfnj]

It would be better to pass laws making a woman feel more secure in giving birth instead of aborting. Sadly, the GOP wants to pretend that they can pass laws punishing people for having sex before marriage. So they tend not to be interested in helping the woman in favor of punishing her. What about the guy?

Are you suggesting a vasectomy for someone who has been convicted of rape? The problem is this would be considered "cruel and unusual" punishment. Also, as we know with executions, our imperfect system of justice occasionally convicts the wrong person!

 

[dfnj]

Nowhere in the Constitution is murder defined. Nor is it defined in the Bible.

Abortion is a new and different moral issue, created by modern medical science, that just didn't exist when the Constitution and Bible were being formulated.

In other words, you can't expect guys who are long dead to solve this moral issue for you. You've got to get educated about the modern world, think through your moral principles,(and be honest about them, global information technology will call out your hypocritical b.s.) then decide what you're going to do.
Tom

You could argue abortion not explicitly mentioned in the Bible is proof the Bible was written by men and not by God. You would think an omnipotent God would have mentioned abortion or some other thing not yet invented as being immoral even though the people reading the words have no idea what God is talking about.

 

[columbus]

You could argue abortion not explicitly mentioned in the Bible is proof the Bible was written by men and not by God. You would think an omnipotent God would have mentioned abortion or some other thing not yet invented as being immoral even though the people reading the words have no idea what God is talking about.

Actually, there are far bigger reasons to believe that the Bible isn't connected to God in any way.
Murder is a tiny little one. Abortion even smaller.
Tom

 

[Sand Dancer]

Are you suggesting a vasectomy for someone who has been convicted of rape? The problem is this would be considered "cruel and unusual" punishment. Also, as we know with executions, our imperfect system of justice occasionally convicts the wrong person!

No, I don't agree with that. It just seems that the woman, who bears most of the burden for an pregnancy, is the one who is left holding the bag.

 

[columbus]

No, I don't agree with that.

Why not?

Going forward, in an increasingly overpopulated biosphere, we humans have to stop considering reproduction an entitlement, beyond moral consideration.

Starting with male rapists and females who pop out babies they can't possibly take care of, I'm good with sterilization.

I don't want anyone forced into sterilization. Let people choose between options like "5 years in prison or sterilization" or "no more government entitlement payments or sterilization".

Make it a Choice!
Tom

 

[Sand Dancer]

Why not?

Going forward, in an increasingly overpopulated biosphere, we humans have to stop considering reproduction an entitlement, beyond moral consideration.

Starting with male rapists and females who pop out babies they can't possibly take care of, I'm good with sterilization.

I don't want anyone forced into sterilization. Let people choose between options like "5 years in prison or sterilization" or "no more government entitlement payments or sterilization".

Make it a Choice!
Tom

Birth control is smarter.

 

[james bond]

I saw no scientific argument for when human life begins.
And then you cited scripture.
That'll work on fundies like Columbus, but not secular minded folk.

It must've been good as the atheist scientists thought that spark or the brightest spark was the one to use for in vitro. Of course, they were wrong about using it for their own purposes of destroying life than realizing it is the beginning of life.

“It’s a way of sorting egg quality in a way we’ve never been able to assess before. “All of biology starts at the time of fertilization, yet we know next to nothing about the events that occur in the human.”

I'm sure they will pay dearly for it. I cited scripture to show how science backs up the Bible.

Then there was the science of embryology which backed it up as well as the pediatricians stating it on their website now -- When Human Life Begins.

Thus, you are wrong as atheists are usually wrong.

 

[columbus]

Birth control is smarter.

Is it?
Is it working?

I don't think it is.

The problem I'm seeing is that the people sufficiently competent and wealthy to be good parents use it. Less responsible and poor people don't. So, more and more children are born to poor and irresponsible people.

I don't see that as a good thing, myself.
Tom

 

[Revoltingest]

It must've been good as the atheist scientists thought that spark or the brightest spark was the one to use for in vitro.

The definition of beginning of human life wasn't addressed.
That would be essential to any argument about it.

Of course, they were wrong about using it for their own purposes of destroying life than realizing it is the beginning of life.

Atheists have no motive to destroy life.

“It’s a way of sorting egg quality in a way we’ve never been able to assess before. “All of biology starts at the time of fertilization, yet we know next to nothing about the events that occur in the human.”

I'm sure they will pay dearly for it. I cited scripture to show how science backs up the Bible.

Then there was the science of embryology which backed it up as well as the pediatricians stating it on their website now -- When Human Life Begins.

Thus, you are wrong as atheists are usually wrong.

Scripture is relevant to believers, but not to people with no religion
or a different one. It would be better if you presented your argument
(with premises, evidence, & reasoning) rather than linking sites
which don't do the job.

 

[columbus]

I cited scripture to show how science backs up the Bible.

No you didn't.
You made a vague claim, unsupported by anything but your own opinion.
Tom

 

[james bond]

It would be easier for you to migrate in Hungary, Russia or some middle eastern country of your choice where your values and opinions would be more commonly accepted. The legality of elective abortion up until the end of the first trimester (that's 14-16 weeks) seems to be favored by a majority of Americans. Otherwise, yes, I would welcome a highly educated and financially solid group of migrants. It's a group that can be integrated very easily in addition to all the other immigrants we receive and will continue to receive each year.

5 facts about the abortion debate in America

Please answer my question. Can you handle the influx of US immigrants to your country? They're your type of people as ones who will eventually turn to communism. Call it whatever you like -- secular humanism, socialism, or atheism, but eventually it will lead to communism.

As for your Pew, it's about the views of Americans. These things can change as it is scientific evidence now that life begins at conception. The argument goes to what rights does an unborn fetus have versus that of the pregnant mother. We find that the current Supreme Court ruling can be changed as it is for the rights of a pregnant woman due to privacy. I don't know of any court that will protect the right to privacy when it involves another rights to life -- 14th Amendment.

 

[james bond]

Your opinion.

And you can just stop after writing that abortion is (presently) a right according to the Supreme Court. That's where America is at. It's a right for as long as secularists can hold off the theocrats.



Abortion is considered a constitutional right according to the 1973 Supreme Court. You might disagree with their reasoning.



The right does exist ever since that ruling.



Irrelevant. The fetus has no rights not granted it by men.

And ending life doesn't enter into the moral calculus of abortion. We kill whenever we fell a cornstalk or step on an ant.

The moral argument does not depend on semantics or definitions. It doesn't matter what you call a fetus - person, life, human being, citizen - the moral status of ending that life don't change for me. Nothing matters except the state of mental development of the conceptus, and its ability to suffer terror and/or physical torment. If the fetus is unable to suffer like that, it is no more cruel or immoral to kill it than ending any other unconscious life.

The only issue for me is whether I prefer empowering pregnant women to control their own lives or prefer turning that choice over to the state to do the church's bidding to impose its religion on a secular nation to please Christians with anti-American, theocratic tendencies. Do I prefer to empower American women or some church using the state as its enforcer. I'm pro-choice for the woman, not the church.

No brainer

Not just my opinion, but the opinion of experts.

That's why we have ways to overturn outdated rights when we find some new rights such as life for the living. Thus, this will not stop until the pro-abortion advocates are run over.

Horse puckey. The 14th Amendment guarantees the right to life, liberty, or property.

You have to explain how human life is treated the same as stepping on a cornstalk or an ant.

How do you know that it's not conscious? From what source are you getting your moral argument? I've never heard such. I quoted the Bible which goes against it. Isn't that the ultimate moral argument?

If it's the choice of the woman, then what if she chooses to have the baby? What do we do about the father? Should he be held responsible for raising the child until adult? We have a very good child support system in place. What about his parents if he is under age? Shouldn't they be held responsible if the father is a minor?

As for your only issue, it's misguided. We are discussing right to privacy as per Roe v. Wade. A lot of is outdated now with the new findings as I stated above.