Should Abortion Be Made Illegal Based On The State You Live In?

[shmogie]

Nowhere in the Constitution is murder defined. Nor is it defined in the Bible.

Abortion is a new and different moral issue, created by modern medical science, that just didn't exist when the Constitution and Bible were being formulated.

In other words, you can't expect guys who are long dead to solve this moral issue for you. You've got to get educated about the modern world, think through your moral principles,(and be honest about them, global information technology will call out your hypocritical b.s.) then decide what you're going to do.
Tom

Read the fourth, and ninth amendment.

The fourteenth amendment makes the issue starkly clear, " ...... nor shall any state deprive any person of LIFE, liberty, or property without due process of law."

These slaughtered babies get NO due process, they are cut up, and thrown away.

So, what "hypocritical BS" are you accusing me of ?

It is the height of immorality to kill an unborn child because it is"inconvenient". Why not post birth abortion, as has been addressed by some so called ethicists of the modern world?

Abortion excuses are varied, but they all boil down to the mother and her desire to not being impinged on by the baby that she helped to create.

A handicapped child or a mentally deficient child certainly impinges on the parents, so, kill them if the parents choose.

Certainly family old folks impinge on those family members caring for them or paying for their care, kill them.

Margaret Sanger founded planned parenthood to slaughter black babies, because she hated blacks, to her a perfectly warranted act because blacks are a drain on a productive society. Her brainchild is still killing black babies every chance it gets.

Spin it any way you choose, invoke some kind of new morality, to use your term, it is all BS.

Killing the unborn was, is, and always will be a moral abomination.

Argue for it all you choose, cite any or all rationalizations for it as you choose.

You will be like king Kanute ordering the sea to recede, it just won't.

Most Americans want serious restrictions on abortions, like I propose, none after the first trimester.

They know killing a baby is dead wrong. ( no pun intended).

 

[james bond]

Let's examine just those two points, for starters.

It's one thing to make "a factual case" for a fetus' rights, but how would you guarantee them? Would you, for example, try to find some way to make it impossible for a pregnant woman to drink, or do drugs, or get hit by a bus and die, or commit suicide out of despair for not being able to obtain an abortion?

And to suppose that the fetus' rights "trump the rights of the woman," do you ignore the fact that the woman may have been involuntarily impregnated (rape, just for example -- I've heard it happens), and in having been so victimized, she is now compelled to be further victimized?

There was a movie made in 1963 called "The Cardinal" starring Tom Tryon, Romie Schneider and John Huston. It was nominated for 6 Academy Awards. It involved a Catholic priest, eventually being elevated to Cardinal, denying his sister an abortion even though the doctors made it 100% clear that this would mean the death of his sister. (The Vatican's liaison officer for the movie was none other than Joseph Ratzinger -- later Pope Benedict XVI, now retired.) For some reason, I remember this film particularly well.

If the fetus is a living human, then it probably has a right to birth as part of their rights and it becomes the duty of the woman to give birth as well as the father to provide support. Afterwards, there are support procedures put in place such as adoption. As for the other negative things you mention pregnant women doing, they are somewhat covered by laws in certain states -- Are There Laws Against Serving Alcohol to Pregnant Women?.

My question for you is what do you care about? Since life begins at conception, what changes should be made to protect the living human fetus?

 

[columbus]

These slaughtered babies get NO due process, they are cut up, and thrown away.

Sure they did.
SCOTUS made a ruling.

I agree that RvW was a bad ruling. I think that about lots of SCOTUS rulings, from Dredd-Scot to Citizens United were bad rulings.

I just don't have much trust in the framers of the Constitution to give guidance to modern moral issues. Nor do I trust SCOTUS to provide permanent rules.

I'm rather like Jesus, and His "Scripture is good for learning, but when it fails ethically, remember to love your God and love your neighbor and the rest is details!"
Tom

 

[Sand Dancer]

Is it?
Is it working?

I don't think it is.

The problem I'm seeing is that the people sufficiently competent and wealthy to be good parents use it. Less responsible and poor people don't. So, more and more children are born to poor and irresponsible people.

I don't see that as a good thing, myself.
Tom

I hope that someday we will have a birth control that is completely effective...if used correctly of course. People often get pregnant while using birth control.

 

[shmogie]

The Constitution doesn't mention any laws about killing. It doesn't talk about this sort of issue. It talks about the organisation and function of a government. You seem to be confusing it with the Criminal Code. The Criminal Code will state what sort of killing is legal and those that are murders. Abortions are legal in the US thus they aren't murders.

14th amendment " no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property......................without due process of law".
"nor deny any person within it's jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Looks like murder to me. We can play the semantics game all day, it doesn't change the facts.

 

[columbus]

I hope that someday we will have a birth control that is completely effective...if used correctly of course. People often get pregnant while using birth control.

Nice thought.

But it's got nothing to do with the here and now. We already know from biological science, that nobody gets pregnant accidentally. Somebody chose something, or the pregnancy couldn't possibly have happened.
Tom

 

[shmogie]

Sure they did.
SCOTUS made a ruling.

I agree that RvW was a bad ruling. I think that about lots of SCOTUS rulings, from Dredd-Scot to Citizens United were bad rulings.

I just don't have much trust in the framers of the Constitution to give guidance to modern moral issues. Nor do I trust SCOTUS to provide permanent rules.

I'm rather like Jesus, and His "Scripture is good for learning, but when it fails ethically, remember to love your God and love your neighbor and the rest is details!"
Tom

Due process is based in individual findings, not blanket laws.

Murder is illegal, and if I know a murderer,b I should execute him because he has had due process because of the law.
Nope.

 

[shmogie]

Nice thought.

But it's got nothing to do with the here and now. We already know from biological science, that nobody gets pregnant accidentally. Somebody chose something, or the pregnancy couldn't possibly have happened.
Tom

As I told my teenage daughters, the best birth control is an aspirin, held tightly between their knees. It never fails.

 

[columbus]

14th amendment " no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property......................without due process of law".
"nor deny any person within it's jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

C'mon dude.
I'm gay.

Do you really expect me to believe that you support equality for all?
I don't.
Tom

 

[Subduction Zone]

14th amendment " no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property......................without due process of law".
"nor deny any person within it's jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Looks like murder to me. We can play the semantics game all day, it doesn't change the facts.

But you are playing semantic games when you conflate a fetus with a person.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

If the fetus is a living human, then it probably has a right to birth as part of their rights and it becomes the duty of the woman to give birth as well as the father to provide support. Afterwards, there are support procedures put in place such as adoption. As for the other negative things you mention pregnant women doing, they are somewhat covered by laws in certain states -- Are There Laws Against Serving Alcohol to Pregnant Women?.

My question for you is what do you care about? Since life begins at conception, what changes should be made to protect the living human fetus?

You would probably be amazed at how many children who wind up in the care of Children's Aid societies do not get adopted, period. I didn't, and I know many other who likewise didn't.

I have stated before that while I do not like abortion used as after-the-fact birth control, and I don't like abortions that occur very far past the first trimester, my likes and dislikes don't enter into the question. I must, in the end, defer to the woman or girl who does not wish to be forced to have a baby that they do not want.

And need I remind you that while laws may offer some protection, laws are quite frequently broken, too. So, sure, you can punish a rapist, but I would not compel the girl who was raped to carry any resulting pregnancy to term.

 

[columbus]

As I told my teenage daughters, the best birth control is an aspirin, held tightly between their knees. It never fails.

Prude that I am, I agree with you.

There's an utterly available and effective method of preventing unwanted pregnancy.

The problem is that people feel entitled to sex, whatever kind of sex they want, and they expect it to be consequence free!

However, I'm inclined to recognize human limitations. I'm inclined to support evidence based methods of preventing crisis pregnancy. The two big ones are Planned Parenthood and comprehensive sex ed starting really young.


Do you really think that telling your daughters to hold an aspirin between their knees is an effective alternative to comprehensive education and empowerment?

Maybe in your daughter's case it worked out. But usually it doesn't. Statistics are evidence, even when they disagree with your religious beliefs.

Don't give me this crap. Man up and do what you have to do to stop(or at least reduce) feticide. Or don't pretend to be pro-life on the internet, because some of us are going to be really difficult and honest.
Tom

 

[columbus]

Murder is illegal

Abortion isn't illegal!

It isn't murder.

I don't know why you don't understand simple legal terms like that. You claim to have been a law enforcement professional. Why don't you understand basic American English?
Tom

 

[metis]

Abortion is not murder because "murder" is a legal term that involves the illegal killing of a person(s). Since abortion is legal here in the States and in most other countries, it is logically not "murder" in those.

BTW, why is it that so many whom consider themselves as being "pro-life" are not opposed to capital punishment? Seems rather hypocritical to me. If one says and believes that only God should take a life, then why do some apply it only in terms of an unborn child but not an adult?

Fortunately, imo, the Catholic church is consistent on this as the recent popes have clearly stated that if a country has jails and prisons that they should not resort to capital punishment for a couple of important reasons: 1.it's unnecessary for prevention purposes and 2.it assumes that a guilty person cannot change.

And then there's the issue of war, but I'll stop here.

 

[epronovost]

Is it?
Is it working?

I don't think it is.

The problem I'm seeing is that the people sufficiently competent and wealthy to be good parents use it. Less responsible and poor people don't. So, more and more children are born to poor and irresponsible people.

I don't see that as a good thing, myself.
Tom

Considering that abortion are a method of birth control making them illegal will increase the number of children born in abusive, incompetant and/or impoverished household. What's better, fetus and zygotes who never grow to become babies or suffering children and parents? I would say the later is significantly worse both on a personal and social basis. Fetus and zygotes cannot suffer (at least not until the 16th week of development and even then before the 28th they cannot have human emotions), but babies and adults can.

 

[columbus]

Fortunately, imo, the Catholic church is consistent on this as the recent popes have clearly stated that if a country has jails and prisons that they should not resort to capital punishment for a couple of important reasons: 1.it's unnecessary for prevention purposes and 2.it assumes that a guilty person cannot change.

The Catholics don't agree with you.

Perhaps you are mistaking the Pope for the RCC?
It's an easy mistake for someone who was Jewish last year to make. But that's not how Mother Church does things.
Tom

 

[1213]

Who has claimed that a human fetus is not human?

Maybe I have misunderstood. If human fetus is a human, why it is accepted to kill them?

 

[1213]

The problem is that people want to grant personhood to things that lack most if not all of the necessary defining attributes.

What if I someone would say "you don’t have necessary attributes", would it be then ok, if that person would abort you?

 

[epronovost]

Please answer my question. Can you handle the influx of US immigrants to your country? They're your type of people as ones who will eventually turn to communism. Call it whatever you like -- secular humanism, socialism, or atheism, but eventually it will lead to communism.

As of now, we can totally handle the number immigrant that comes from the US and other countries. In fact, we could and are trying to get a little bit more. Note that I live in a country where the political ''Center'' would be basically the equivalent of the most Left wing of the Democratic party.

As for your argument about the 14th amendment it states that no one shall be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of the law. Abortion were legalised following the due process of the law since it was legal decision. If a law passed following due process state that X shall be killed or that Y shall loose their property, it's legal. The 14th amendment protects people from abitrary arrest and condamnation as well as ''mob justice''. It doesn't protect from laws passed following due process. Think about it, a literal interpretation of this amendment without this distinction would make prison unconstitutional.

 

[Muffled]

I believe it should be a federal law against abortion since it would not be equal justice for one state to allow murder and another state forbid it.