Should art get government subsidies ...

[painted wolf]

Of course!
Whose standard would I apply other than my own?

I think paved roads are a waste of money... especially out in the south west. That doesn't mean we should defund the highway department.

wa:do

 

[Alceste]

That's a valid criticism of artists slopping at the federal trough when they can't sell their work.
Government doesn't pay for my unprofitable hobbies, so I don't expect to pay for others'.

Didn't you say yourself that war is unprofitable? Why are they spending 50 billion dollars a year on that, then?

 

[Revoltingest]

Didn't you say yourself that war is unprofitable? Why are they spending 50 billion dollars a year on that, then?

A trick question, eh? It's far more than that.
Cost of war at least $3.7 trillion and counting | Reuters
Reasons:
- Power hungry politicians want to play policeman to the world.
- Revenge for 9.11.01 attacks.
- Smug sanctimony about imposing our values abroad.

 

[painted wolf]

Didn't you say yourself that war is unprofitable? Why are they spending 50 billion dollars a year on that, then?

Hey I know a guy that became an officer in the military simply so that they would pay his bills and he can get the sweet benefits. He did his couple of years and is now milking it for what it's worth.

Talk about latching onto the teat.

wa:do

 

[Alceste]

That's a valid criticism of artists slopping at the federal trough when they can't sell their work.
Government doesn't pay for my unprofitable hobbies, so I don't expect to pay for others'.

I CAN sell my work. However, I know for a fact that there are at least two senior citizens who decided the cost of private lessons is too high for a pair of old ladies on a fixed income, so they quit singing lessons and sat wallowing away in their old folks' home watching telly until a federally funded program came along that gave them the opportunity to get out and sing with other senior citizens for free.

I also know that some of my teenage students are too poor to pay for music lessons, so they benefit from a tax-funded program that pays for such things for kids who live in poverty.

Maybe you're not very good at your unprofitable hobbies, or maybe they provide no net benefit to society in general. If you did a better job of it, or were more thoughtful in your choice of hobbies, no doubt you would find that the government is willing to pay for them.

 

[Alceste]

A trick question, eh? It's far more than that.
Cost of war at least $3.7 trillion and counting | Reuters
Reasons:
- Power hungry politicians want to play policeman to the world.
- Revenge for 9.11.01 attacks.
- Smug sanctimony about imposing our values abroad.

That sounds pretty unprofitable to me, regardless of whether or not you think it has anything to do with 9/11 or power-hungry politicians. Why do you think the government is spending most of their money on it?

 

[Revoltingest]

Hey I know a guy that became an officer in the military simply so that they would pay his bills and he can get the sweet benefits. He did his couple of years and is now milking it for what it's worth.
Talk about latching onto the teat.

You've no idea how it warms my heart that my tax money supports a guy looking for a free ride.
And they made this loser an officer too?

 

[Revoltingest]

That sounds pretty unprofitable to me, regardless of whether or not you think it has anything to do with 9/11 or power-hungry politicians. Why do you think the government is spending most of their money on it?

For the reasons I just listed.
I wish our gov't were motivated by profit, ie, providing a desired service for a competitive price.

 

[Alceste]

I think paved roads are a waste of money... especially out in the south west. That doesn't mean we should defund the highway department.

wa:do

Hear hear. If everything somebody, somewhere thought was a waste of money got defunded, there would be no public funding for anything.

Have fun sloshing your way through raw sewage as you take yourself and your disabled kids down the dirt road to work a 12 hour shift at the plastic pumpkin factory.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hear hear. If everything somebody, somewhere thought was a waste of money got defunded, there would be no public funding for anything.
Have fun sloshing your way through raw sewage as you take yourself and your disabled kids down the dirt road to work a 12 hour shift at the plastic pumpkin factory.

It isn't about what everyone or anyone wants.....it's about what I want.

The flip side of your reasoning is that gov't should fund everything that someone wants.
I imagine......
- National Endowment for Rodeo Clown Art
- Public Broadcasting of Upper Peninsula Polka Music
- National Drag Queen Ballet Festival

The last one I could actually support with my own money.

 

[Alceste]

For the reasons I just listed.
I wish our gov't were motivated by profit, ie, providing a desired service for a competitive price.

Would you say that a music festival qualifies as a "desired service"? These things generate tens of thousands of dollars worth of economic activity in the cities that hold them. The financial benefits accrue to restaurants, vendors, performers, hotels, transportation, airlines, tourism, breweries etc. Various levels of government usually assist these festivals with funding amounting to a few thousand dollars, usually in the form of grants to assist with artists' travel expenses, discounted use of public property, and big fat cheques. That's a pretty big return on investment.

I don't think you quite understand how arts funding works. It isn't just welfare for bad artists. As I implied before, bad artists have no trouble making money because people have terrible taste. Arts funding is an investment in culture, which not only tells us who we are and what we value, but also generates a substantial amount of economic activity.

 

[Alceste]

It isn't about what everyone or anyone wants.....it's about what I want.

Now we're getting somewhere.

 

[Debater Slayer]

For the reasons I just listed.
I wish our gov't were motivated by profit, ie, providing a desired service for a competitive price.

I propose that the government cuts back on bacon funding.

It's only fair, you know.

 

[Revoltingest]

Would you say that a music festival qualifies as a "desired service"? These things generate tens of thousands of dollars worth of economic activity in the cities that hold them. The financial benefits accrue to restaurants, vendors, performers, hotels, transportation, airlines, tourism, breweries etc. Various levels of government usually assist these festivals with funding amounting to a few thousand dollars, usually in the form of grants to assist with artists' travel expenses, discounted use of public property, and big fat cheques. That's a pretty big return on investment.

I encourage people to get together & do such things on their own. Government will fail to make a profit at that. I've never been a fan of government's subsidizing activities to compete with other communities. Since the function of such affairs is effectively tourism, nothing is added to the economy. Rather, it is the shuffling around of existing wealth. What is spent at the festival is simply money not spent elsewhere. The return on investment is strictly local, with no economic benefit to the larger community.

I don't think you quite understand how arts funding works.

I know you do....just as I don't think you understand how economics works.
But we really shouldn't dwell on each other's shortcomings.

It isn't just welfare for bad artists. As I implied before, bad artists have no trouble making money because people have terrible taste. Arts funding is an investment in culture, which not only tells us who we are and what we value, but also generates a substantial amount of economic activity.

Bad artists have no trouble making money?
Sounds like a rather elitist rationale to justify slopping at the government trough.

 

[Revoltingest]

I propose that the government cuts back on bacon funding.
It's only fair, you know.

They fund bacon.....whoda thunk it?

 

[painted wolf]

You've no idea how it warms my heart that my tax money supports a guy looking for a free ride.
And they made this loser an officer too?

Shame of it is... I can't entirely fault him for it. He had a skill (meteorology) they were interested in and he had a ton of debt that he needed erased. So he made the best decision he could for his family.

And yeah... he went strait into an officer position. Served his two years and didn't get reenlisted. So now he gets to go to university for free wherever he wants to get his masters. Use his military service to look extra shiny to the employers and health care for life.

And my dad and brother served way before the goodies started to pile up and put in way more than two years... they're lucky if they can get to see the VA once in a while.

wa:do

 

[Alceste]

I encourage people to get together & do such things on their own. Government will fail to make a profit at that. I've never been a fan of government's subsidizing activities to compete with other communities. Since the function of such affairs is effectively tourism, nothing is added to the economy. Rather, it is the shuffling around of existing wealth. What is spent at the festival is simply money not spent elsewhere. The return on investment is strictly local, with no economic benefit to the larger community.

Not true. If I'm sitting here at home, making my own meals from the food I grew in the garden, I'm not spending a significant amount of money in ANY community. If I go to Montreal for their world-class jazz festival, I'm spending money on plane tickets, beer, hotel accommodations, beer, restaurant meals, beer, ticket prices, beer, taxis, beer, and beer. Street beer! The best kind of beer! Beer that I can drink in the street while I watch free concerts on FIVE outdoor stages! After all that street beer, GOD ONLY KNOWS what kind of frivolities I might spend money on. Cigarettes! Asymmetrical tank tops! Buskers!

Festivals hoover vast amounts of job-creating, tax-revenue-generating, hard-earned money straight out of your pocket in a way that sitting at home watching Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire could never do, and you will never miss it, because you had so much fun. You'll have pictures to prove it! Not only does the government get a piece of your hard-earned money through income tax, it gets it AGAIN through the income tax of every entrepreneur you patronized on your awesome holiday.

So they invest a pathetically small amount of that substantial tax revenue on maintaining the festival in question. You want to cry about your tax dollars being "wasted" on the arts, but you discount the fact that, at least in this case, the investment generates more tax revenue for the local government than it costs.

Otherwise they would not be doing it.

I know you do....just as I don't think you understand how economics works.
But we really shouldn't dwell on each other's shortcomings.

Refer to the above description of how the economics of arts funding often works.

Bad artists have no trouble making money?
Sounds like a rather elitist rationale to justify slopping at the government trough.

Who is the more skilled musician: Yo Yo Ma or Lady Gaga? Who makes more money?

You right wingers love to paint anybody with a whiff of good taste with the "elitist" brush, but you ignore the fact that EVEN YOU have good taste. You're just too cheap to pay for it. Much like us leftists, except that you don't seem to realize that without public investment, high quality art will cease to exist.

 

[Revoltingest]

Not true. If I'm sitting here at home, making my own meals from the food I grew in the garden, I'm not spending a significant amount of money in ANY community. If I go to Montreal for their world-class jazz festival, I'm spending money on plane tickets, beer, hotel accommodations, beer, restaurant meals, beer, ticket prices, beer, taxis, beer, and beer. Street beer! The best kind of beer! Beer that I can drink in the street while I watch free concerts on FIVE outdoor stages! After all that street beer, GOD ONLY KNOWS what kind of frivolities I might spend money on. Cigarettes! Asymmetrical tank tops! Buskers!
Festivals hoover vast amounts of job-creating, tax-revenue-generating, hard-earned money straight out of your pocket in a way that sitting at home watching Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire could never do, and you will never miss it, because you had so much fun. You have pictures to prove it! Not only does the government get a piece of your hard-earned money through income tax, it gets it AGAIN through the income tax of every entrepreneur you patronized on your amazing holiday.
So they invest a pathetically small amount of that substantial tax revenue on maintaining the festival in question. You want to cry about your tax dollars being "wasted" on the arts, but you discount the fact that, at least in this case, the investment generates more tax revenue for the local government than it costs.
Otherwise they would not be doing it.
Refer to the above description of how the economics of arts funding often works.

Oh, dear....I can't face correcting so much misunderstanding tonite.

Who is the more skilled musician: Yo Yo Ma or Lady Gaga? Who makes more money?

Each is skilled in a different way. Lady Gaga makes more (I presume) because she has wider appeal.
Let's not confuse personal preference for high-brow art with superior skill.
American jazz was once thought of as base & valueless by effete types in government too.

You right wingers...

Now, now....if you're going to start with disingenuous name calling, I won't continue.

 

[Alceste]

Wrongo pongo.

Amazing rebuttal. Where did I go wrong, pray tell?

Each is skilled in a different way. Lady Gaga makes more (I presume) because she has wider appeal.

You don't know who Yo Yo Ma is, do you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM9DPfp7-Ck

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bESGLojNYSo&feature=relmfu

Be honest. Which do you prefer?

Now, if you're going to start with disingenuous name calling, I won't continue.

You don't consider yourself a right winger?

 

[Revoltingest]

Amazing rebuttal. Where did I go wrong, pray tell?

Too involved to go into tonite.

You don't know who Yo Yo Ma is, do you?

Is your question an attempt to feel like you're sophisticated relative to a
lowly groundskeeper just because you know the name of a famous cellist?
Geeze, the guy is on the radio here all the time.

You don't consider yourself a right winger?

We've covered this ground before.
And I've explained that I find this abusive.