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Should atheists offer something more than disbelief?

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
I realized that my other thread was too fixated on promoting my own brand of pantheism to the detriment of another important point. The point being whether it's enough for atheists to just disbelieve and debunk traditional religious claims without offering something more to replace them with.

I know that atheism is just the absence of belief in traditional deities. By definition, it cannot actually offer anything more than that. Although there's a variety among individuals, atheists themselves usually also believe in physicalism, naturalism, pantheism, and/or other related beliefs. Personally, I find the label of "atheist" to be rather limited in expressing who a person really is to begin with. It only says what you don't believe in within expanding on what you do believe in. I mean, technically, you don't even have to believe in naturalism to be an atheist. In practice, atheists tend to focus on just debunking religious claims without offering any of their own positive beliefs as an adequate replacement.

Essentially what traditional religious folk are hearing is that their most profound and meaningful beliefs are completely baseless and absurd. They don't see any viable alternative coming out of naturalism so they're only left with a sense of spiritual nihilism. That's why they believe inaccurately that atheists believe in nothing. Do you think they prefer that sense of nihilism over their outdated belief system? Or will they just continue to believe what they do, even if in the back of their heads they know it's baseless, because it's still preferable to any alternative they're getting from naturalism?

I'm suggesting that perhaps some form of naturalistic spirituality should be expressed much more often by atheists as a possible replacement for the fantasies being destroyed by science and logic. People need an optimistic belief system to give them something to hope for. Atheists are debunking their primary sources of hope without offering anything to replace them with. I'm not saying it has to be scientific pantheism, or my variation of it, just something better than what they're hearing from most atheists. Even though it is in part just their own faulty interpretation of naturalism, it still causes them to close their minds at the first hint of meaninglessness. Don't atheists need to prevent that unfortunate reaction to make any sort of meaningful progress in dialogue? And wouldn't it be more beneficial to society at large for atheists to promote naturalistic spirituality anyway?

Atheism is nothing more than one conclusion of holding a rational worldview. If being rational isn't enough for someone, than they should probably stick to emotionally-motivated beliefs. Well, they inevitably will anyway, so it's a rather moot point.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
You need to distinguish between spirituality and religiosity. And between traditional religions and scientifically-based pantheism. You're both overgeneralizing.
Spirituality is in religion.




Pessimism is most definitely a preference or personality disposition. There's no evidence that pessimism is more realistic than optimism. None at all. For every horrible thing you could mention I could mention something wonderful. It's an opinion to view everything in a negative light.
Wrong. Just as lack of proof of Gods makes me not believe in any, the lack of proof in optimism makes me pessimist.


Well, I'm sorry your life sucks so bad. I feel rather good about mine. I don't have faith in magic, although I do have faith in the natural flow of things. Fortunately I'm supported by science to hold such faith.
Magic was just an example. My life doesn't suck, more like just is random and pointless.

What do you mean by natural flow of things?

Also is it really faith if you have proof?
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
then you cannot use the 3 links you provided as they do refer to mainstream religion

They're about the benefits of religiosity and spirituality in general. My focus is on naturalistic spirituality. It ties into it. If spirituality is beneficial in mainstream religions, then it is beneficial in pantheism. The difference is that traditional religions can cause people to behave irrationally and destructively, I agree, but spirituality does not. You need to differentiate them. I want to get rid of the destructive religious elements and preserve the beneficial spiritual ones.

Please look over this link again and tell me where you find fault:

:: Authentic Happiness :: Using the new Positive Psychology

So far you've only offer your own opinions. Can you offer any studies or expert opinions about how spirituality is harmful to mental health?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
you need to ask first, do the negative aspects of religion outweigh the positive?????.

I never stated there were no positive aspects of religion.

My focus is on naturalistic spirituality

yes but you also are in debate and basically trashing atheist, I dont believe in gods or spirituality.

so your going to get religion dragged in by your own choice.
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
Spirituality is in religion.

Wrong. Just as lack of proof of Gods makes me not believe in any, the lack of proof in optimism makes me pessimist.

Magic was just an example. My life doesn't suck, more like just is random and pointless.

What do you mean by natural flow of things?

Also is it really faith if you have proof?

Spirituality is in religion. I think that's because traditional religions have distorted and misinterpreted our naturalistic spiritual experiences and explained them with false mythologies. The spirituality came first. I think its a mistake to abandon it given its potential to inspire people to positive action.

The lack of proof of pessimism makes me an optimist. It's not even my opinion that this is just a matter of interpretation. You can't prove pessimism or optimism.

The "natural flow of things" means that everything has a natural niche within the cosmic system meant to fulfill some particular function. This function isn't preordained or commanded by a deity. It just naturally happens. To us we see chaos, but the progress of science has been the realization that there is no true chaos but rather an underlying order to things. I personally prefer the multiverse theories that physicists are adopting now. Some of them say that the point of our universe is to create black holes which then spawn new universes in some kind of cosmic reproductive cycle.

I'm only going off philosophical naturalism, so maybe I do have a lot of evidence to support my position. It still requires faith since I can't prove definitively that all is nature. I just trust that it is.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
That's like saying you believe in God because there is no proof that there isn't one.

The lack of proof of pessimism makes me an optimist. It's not even my opinion that this is just a matter of interpretation. You can't prove pessimism or optimism.
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
you need to ask first, do the negative aspects of religion outweigh the positive?????.

I never stated there were no positive aspects of religion.

yes but you also are in debate and basically trashing atheist, I dont believe in gods or spirituality.

so your going to get religion dragged in by your own choice.

Then let's get technical about it. How would you differentiate between negative aspects and positive aspects? Then how would you go about determining how many negative aspects there were against positive aspects?

Would you differentiate between religions? Like that monotheistic religions tend to be more destructive than polytheistic religions? Or that Buddhists are more peaceful than Muslims? If you're going to drag the giant general topic of "religion" out then its going to be a long night because you can't make a hail Mary across the board ethical judgment about all possible religions. If you think you can, you're being illogical.

My naturalistic pantheism is completely in line with scientific theory or it's at least not in any conflict with it. If it ever got into conflict with it then I'd change my beliefs accordingly. It's adaptive like that. So can you differentiate between naturalistic pantheism and supernatural theism, which tends to be dogmatic?

And you keep saying I'm trashing atheists. Why are you so hellbent on defining yourself with a word that just means you don't believe in deities? Atheism doesn't really convey anything deep about your personality so I don't understand why you're taking such offense to my criticism.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I know that atheism is just the absence of belief in traditional deities. By definition, it cannot actually offer anything more than that

WRONG

the lack of belief in a deity opens up the mind so that scientific discoverys can be made.

religion has in the past stopped some of the most brilliant minds the world has known because they got to a point where they became lost and said at this point only god could have done that.

later another person comes in and makes the discovery only to prove in fact god did not have anything to do with the first person dropped the ball.

In this example Newton is the first person.



this is one of thousands of examples that highlights your severe ignorance on atheism
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
That's like saying you believe in God because there is no proof that there isn't one.

Not at all.

Optimism is just hopefulness and confidence about the future or the successful outcome of something. You've never been optimistic?

Pessimism is the tendency to see the worst aspect of things or believe that the worst will happen; a lack of hope or confidence in the future.

Sometimes good things happen and sometimes bad things happen. How can you rationalize that one is more true than the other? Being either optimistic or pessimistic is just an unscientific disposition that someone tends to have. It's more logical to be optimistic though because positive thinking leads to more positive outcomes and negative thinking tends toward more negative outcomes.

For example, you're never going to get that promotion unless you think you're worthy of it. You're never going to attract a beautiful women unless you're confidence in yourself. You're never going to get a head in life if you're always anticipating the worst possible outcomes.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
Not at all.

Optimism is just hopefulness and confidence about the future or the successful outcome of something. You've never been optimistic?

Pessimism is the tendency to see the worst aspect of things or believe that the worst will happen; a lack of hope or confidence in the future.

Sometimes good things happen and sometimes bad things happen. How can you rationalize that one is more true than the other? Being either optimistic or pessimistic is just an unscientific disposition that someone tends to have. It's more logical to be optimistic though because positive thinking leads to more positive outcomes and negative thinking tends toward more negative outcomes.

For example, you're never going to get that promotion unless you think you're worthy of it. You're never going to attract a beautiful women unless you're confidence in yourself. You're never going to get a head in life if you're always anticipating the worst possible outcomes.

Pessimism is not that at all... It is just looking at the not-so-bright side.

It's better to be pessimist because then, you will know if you are doing wrong, and if it is good you'll recognize it.

Don't think pessimists think of EVERYTHING as bad, we don't.

I've been optimistic when I was a theist, but it bored me to believe in things without evidence.
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
WRONG

the lack of belief in a deity opens up the mind so that scientific discoverys can be made.

religion has in the past stopped some of the most brilliant minds the world has known because they got to a point where they became lost and said at this point only god could have done that.

later another person comes in and makes the discovery only to prove in fact god did not have anything to do with the first person dropped the ball.

In this example Newton is the first person.

this is one of thousands of examples that highlights your severe ignorance on atheism

How can I be ignorance about such a simple word? Atheism is the absence of belief in deities. Simple enough.

You can't claim that all religions prevented that. It was specifically the Roman Catholic church. You would agree they handle things much differently than, say, the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers). You're overgeneralizing.

Besides, Newton wasn't even an atheist. He was an monotheist. Try again.
 
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Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
Pessimism is not that at all... It is just looking at the not-so-bright side.

It's better to be pessimist because then, you will know if you are doing wrong, and if it is good you'll recognize it.

Don't think pessimists think of EVERYTHING as bad, we don't.

I've been optimistic when I was a theist, but it bored me to believe in things without evidence.

Actually, that was the exact definition of pessimism from Webster's Dictionary. If you want to redefine it to suit your needs I guess that's alright.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
Actually, that was the exact definition of pessimism from Webster's Dictionary. If you want to redefine it to suit your needs I guess that's alright.

Hmm. Well I guess it was right in a way, but I think that is really an overreacting way of putting it.
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
If it hasn't already been said; humanism.

Nope you're the first. Humanism would be one possible optimistic philosophy to offer in place of traditional religion. Personally I find philosophical flaws with it and think it could be limiting when it comes specifically to ecological consciousness, although it's enormously beneficial for expanding social consciousness.

It's still much better than nothing. I would get into this with you, but It's late and I'm just about to finish with the others. Perhaps another day.
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
Well, it looks like outhouse went to sleep in his outhouse for the night.

I'll just reiterate my last argument for him:

You can't claim that all religions prevented scientific progress. In the example he gave it was specifically the Roman Catholic church. We should all agree that they handle things much differently than the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) for example. The one is hierarchical and authoritarian and the other is egalitarian and democratic. A lot of atheists tend to overgeneralize about religions in their arguments. When you examine them closely, they actually all have very important distinctions and characteristics that should be taken into consideration.

Outhouse also claimed that religion (across the board apparently) held Newton back from his science and that lacking belief in gods helps people make scientific discoveries. Yet Newton wasn't even an atheist. He was an monotheist. Epic fail.

Some of the world's greatest scientists and philosophers were God-believers. Many were even pantheists, including Einstein. So if I am wrong then at least I'm in good company. I'll finish for tonight with a series of quotes on naturalistic spirituality by brilliant men more eloquent than myself. Good night.

"We are part of Nature as a whole whose order we follow." -Spinoza

"All things are parts of one single system, which is called Nature; the individual life is good when it is in harmony with Nature." -Zeno

"I believe in the cosmos. All of us are linked to the cosmos. So nature is my god. To me, nature is sacred. Trees are my temples and forests are my cathedrals. Being at one with nature."-Mikhail Gorbachev

"A human being is part of the whole called by us universe ... We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. The true value of a human being is determined by the measure and the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive." -Albert Einstein
 
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The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm not understanding why you think there is a natural flow of things... Everything happens at random, it is visible that everything is random.

Examples: Some stars die, and others stay alive.
There's not life on every planet, every other planet, etc. Only on random planets, it's just scattered.
Our planet is not amazing, to another world our planet could look like it is impossible to live on.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I'm not understanding why you think there is a natural flow of things... Everything happens at random, it is visible that everything is random.

The causes may be random, but the very nature of existence brings a flow of sorts. For instance, water evaporates and eventually rains back down. Or war erupts due to demographic and political tension.

Nature is not random. It just lacks a will or purpose.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Nature is not random. It just lacks a will or purpose.

nature also lacks spirituality.

Nature - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"nature" often refers to geology and wildlife.

Nature, in the broadest sense, is equivalent to the natural world, physical world, or material world. "Nature" refers to the phenomena of the physical world, and also to life in general. It ranges in scale from the subatomic to the cosmic.

Depending on the particular context, the term "natural" might also be distinguished from the unnatural, the supernatural, or what is man-made (man-made).


yep no religion or divinity there AT ALL
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I'll just reiterate my last argument for him:

you cannot even crawl out of the first wet cardboard box of a arguement you posted.

Outhouse also claimed that religion (across the board apparently) held Newton back from his science and that lacking belief in gods helps people make scientific discoveries. Yet Newton wasn't even an atheist. He was an monotheist. Epic fail.

WRONG again

heres a little vid by Neil Degrasse Tyson called gap of the gods

One of the smartest men on the planet blows your statement above right off the planet.



[youtube]0vrpPPV_yPY[/youtube]
YouTube - ‪The God Of The Gaps (by Neil deGrasse Tyson)‬‏
 
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