Should atheists offer something more than disbelief?

[outhouse]

What? When did I say atheist lifestyle? Stop trying to turn this around on me. I said that atheism, by itself, is limited in its beneficial capacity towards society. It does nothing to aid social or ecological progress. You seem to have taken atheism "lack of belief in deities" and turned it into some kind of across the board description for who you are and how you live your life. How am I condemning the atheist lifestyle when I don't even understand what it is? Or how am I persecuting you for not practicing spirituality?

Oh boy, your dug in deep now. Is this cannabis talking?

you are the one who lumped all atheist into one basket

 

[Straw Dog]

you have shown ZERO evidence about your spirituality for someone to want to change their mind.

Except that it's been demonstrated to have a positive effect on mental health.

 

[Straw Dog]

you are the one who lumped all atheist into one basket

Not really, I made as much clear in the OP. They do share similarities in debate forums though.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Positive psychologists have clearly demonstrated though that optimism is superior and has no negative effects.

We all live negative effects no matter if we are optimistic or pessimistic, it's life, you like one thing and one thing lower will be unenjoyable.

I don't have definitive physical proof, but neither do you for most of your opinions.

Which opinions?

Do you have no political views?

Of course. But they vary on what people are looking for, a better country for them? Democracy. A better country for earth? Liberal. Etc.

All political views are right in their own way.

Do you have no opinions on other religions?

Not really.

I've already given links to expert opinions in the fields of psychology and ecology. If you don't even trust expert opinions, then progress is impossible.

Even an expert can be wrong.

This thread was aimed at atheists who actually want to find ways to make the world a better way.

Who doesn't?

If you don't care either way, then that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

I do care, but I care more for not guessing or not jumping to conclusion, just sit back and watch nature as it is.

You just haven't given me any reason not to promote naturalistic spirituality.

This is true, but I'm trying to break it down to the bottom point before doing so.

The Universe doesn't just lend itself to pessimism nor is a pessimistic worldview more realistic in any way, it's all just human interpretation.

I agree, though I think the Universe doesn't lend itself into anything, it is just random. There is no evidence supporting otherwise.

I'm just saying we might as well interpret things in the best possible light without conflicting with scientific evidence.

That could be possible, but it requires faith, and faith, as my signature says, is just to stop asking questions.

 

[Straw Dog]

I have the right to think religion and spirituality, is limited in benefiting social and ecological progress

You've made a claim. Why do you think naturalistic spirituality is limited in benefiting ecological progress?

I've provided plenty of expert opinions and rationale for my side of the argument.

 

[outhouse]

I've provided plenty of expert opinions and rationale for my side of the argument.

no you have not

you posted 3 links from religious people stating they see benefits of religion and spirituality applied to mental health.

mental health is a small fraction at best to benefiting ecological progress IF its true


on my side of the fence we can take the religious creation/ID fight in which the religious would love to drive our education backwards hundreds of years.

 

[Straw Dog]

Of course. But they vary on what people are looking for, a better country for them? Democracy. A better country for earth? Liberal. Etc.

All political views are right in their own way.

Your political views are completely unfounded and unsupported by evidence. In fact, there's a great deal of evidence that democracy leads to a worse country. There are severe flaws in liberalism as well. Yet you hold these views in good faith without definitive proof.

Even an expert can be wrong.

That's true, and yet we tend to trust their opinions on certain things more than our own. You seem to think you understand how the Universe works. Where does that confidence stem from? Are you an expert physicist? Probably not. Yet you place faith in their opinions and theories that haven't been definitively proven.

I do care, but I care more for not guessing or not jumping to conclusion, just sit back and watch nature as it is.

I agree, though I think the Universe doesn't lend itself into anything, it is just random. There is no evidence supporting otherwise.

That could be possible, but it requires faith, and faith, as my signature says, is just to stop asking questions.

What conclusions do I jump to? The evidence and expert opinions are that spirituality is beneficial for mental health, and by extension, is healthy for society. There's no jumping involved. Everything I said is based on naturalism. I'm just promoting a positive interpretation of it. You prefer a more pessimistic one. We're both using science and logic and neither of us is factually wrong. But which approach is more useful for society?

Faith means more than just religious faith. My pantheism is open to new information and asking questions so your statement doesn't apply to me.

 

[outhouse]

The evidence and expert opinions are that spirituality is beneficial for mental health, and by extension, is healthy for society.

but you ignore wars fought over religion??

priest molesting little children???

abortion doctors being murdered???

 

[outhouse]

But which approach is more useful for society?

im under the impression science saves more lives then religion and spirituality ever could dream about.

without scientific thinking and science in general, most of us would probably be dead without the efforts of the CDC let alone other medical advances

you really didnt think this out did you?

 

[Straw Dog]

no you have not

you posted 3 links from religious people stating they see benefits of religion and spirituality applied to mental health.

mental health is a small fraction at best to benefiting ecological progress IF its true


on my side of the fence we can take the religious creation/ID fight in which the religious would love to drive our education backwards hundreds of years.

What makes you say they were religious? And why couldn't a religious person conduct proper science to begin with? I took a course in positive psychology and they've definitely found a positive correlation between spirituality and mental health.

Here's another link and I can't see how you'd think it was done by evangelicals or whatever you think.

:: Authentic Happiness :: Using the new Positive Psychology

I didn't say intelligent design or traditional spirituality. I said naturalistic spirituality. It's in a whole different ball park so you still haven't made an argument against it.

 

[Straw Dog]

im under the impression science saves more lives then religion and spirituality ever could dream about.

without scientific thinking and science in general, most of us would probably be dead without the efforts of the CDC let alone other medical advances

you really didnt think this out did you?

Again I'm not talking about Bronze age religious mythology okay? I'm talking specifically about naturalistic spirituality. Besides, without science there would be no nuclear bomb so its a moot point to claim science or region are more beneficial. Naturalistic spirituality has more to do with science than it does with traditional religions anyway.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Your political views are completely unfounded and unsupported by evidence. In fact, there's a great deal of evidence that democracy leads to a worse country. There are severe flaws in liberalism as well. Yet you hold these views in good faith without definitive proof.

Actually I only go by what people need, or what they want, it depends on the situation for each political philosophy, so it doesn't lack proof.

There are flaws in liberalism? Such as?

That's true, and yet we tend to trust their opinions on certain things more than our own. You seem to think you understand how the Universe works. Where does that confidence stem from? Are you an expert physicist? Probably not. Yet you place faith in their opinions and theories that haven't been definitively proven.

I have? I think you are the one that has faith on opinions that doesn't have proof.

I agree, we should trust them more. But I'm going to let you debate the websites between outhouse if you wish, I don't understand the proof behind them.

What conclusions do I jump to? The evidence and expert opinions are that spirituality is beneficial for mental health, and by extension, is healthy for society. There's no jumping involved. Everything I said is based on naturalism. I'm just promoting a positive interpretation of it. You prefer a more pessimistic one. We're both using science and logic and neither of us is factually wrong. But which approach is more useful for society?

How is spirituality beneficial for mental health? Sure it makes us more optimistic, but also makes us ignore what science has proven, taking us into another dark ages.

I don't prefer pessimism, I accept it to be real. Why would anybody WANT to be pessimistic?

Well, I don't believe faith in optimism is needed, only knowledge and logic and experience, so I believe my approach is.

Faith means more than just religious faith. My pantheism is open to new information and asking questions so your statement doesn't apply to me.

I understand that it does, but it still applies to you.

If I said 'I have faith in magic' but wasn't religious, and skeptical about everything else, but when science comes around that nobody can understand for maybe 5 years, I still shouldn't sing 'It's magic, you know.... Can't believe it's not sooo!!" because there is still possibilities out there.

Same goes for optimistic faith. I'm very tired of when I have a personal problem or some other guy does, my friends just tell them "Look on the brightside, your life will be better then." No, it doesn't work that way.

 

[Straw Dog]

but you ignore wars fought over religion??

priest molesting little children???

abortion doctors being murdered???

Spirituality isn't the same as religion. Besides its stupid to blame all these atrocities on the umbrella term of "religion". It's like blaming scientists around the world for the atomic bomb and biological warfare. It's just dumb.

But once again, I'm not defending traditional religion or spirituality. Pay attention.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Again I'm not talking about Bronze age religious mythology okay? I'm talking specifically about naturalistic spirituality. Besides, without science there would be no nuclear bomb so its a moot point to claim science or region are more beneficial. Naturalistic spirituality has more to do with science than it does with traditional religions anyway.

With a pessimistic view, you will know when things are bad and you'll TRY to make them better.

But when you are optimistic, you will think of things as good when they are actually going bad.

 

[outhouse]

Again I'm not talking about Bronze age religious mythology okay?

im talking about today

have you heard of the CDC in the bronze age??

Besides, without science there would be no nuclear bomb

whats your point, your going backwards

the bomb saved hundreds of thousands of japaneese lives at the price of those it took. It was a benifit.

the technology taken from it now powers countries and offers benifits your spirituality cannot match

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Spirituality isn't the same as religion. Besides its stupid to blame all these atrocities on the umbrella term of "religion". It's like blaming scientists around the world for the atomic bomb and biological warfare. It's just dumb.

But once again, I'm not defending traditional religion or spirituality. Pay attention.

You are defending spirituality, you said it makes better for mental health...

 

[outhouse]

Spirituality isn't the same as religion. Besides its stupid to blame all these atrocities on the umbrella term of "religion". It's like blaming scientists around the world for the atomic bomb and biological warfare. It's just dumb.

But once again, I'm not defending traditional religion or spirituality. Pay attention.

again your showing ignorance about the atomic bomb

 

[outhouse]

Naturalistic spirituality has more to do with science than it does with traditional religions anyway.

then you cannot use the 3 links you provided as they do refer to mainstream religion

 

[outhouse]

I know that atheism is just the absence of belief in traditional deities. By definition, it cannot actually offer anything more than that

WRONG

the lack of belief in a deity opens up the mind so that scientific discoverys can be made.

religion has in the past stopped some of the most brilliant minds the world has known because they got to a point where they became lost and said at this point only god could have done that.

later another person comes in and makes the discovery only to prove in fact god did not have anything to do with the first person dropped the ball.

In this example Newton is the first person.



this is one of thousands of examples that highlights your severe ignorance on atheism

 

[Straw Dog]

Actually I only go by what people need, or what they want, it depends on the situation for each political philosophy, so it doesn't lack proof.

There are flaws in liberalism? Such as?

http://www.analyse-und-kritik.net/2005-2/AK_Bell_2005.pdf

I agree, we should trust them more. But I'm going to let you debate the websites between outhouse if you wish, I don't understand the proof behind them.

How is spirituality beneficial for mental health? Sure it makes us more optimistic, but also makes us ignore what science has proven, taking us into another dark ages.

You need to distinguish between spirituality and religiosity. And between traditional religions and scientifically-based pantheism. You're both overgeneralizing.

:: Authentic Happiness :: Using the new Positive Psychology

I don't prefer pessimism, I accept it to be real. Why would anybody WANT to be pessimistic?

Well, I don't believe faith in optimism is needed, only knowledge and logic and experience, so I believe my approach is.

Pessimism is most definitely a preference or personality disposition. There's no evidence that pessimism is more realistic than optimism. None at all. For every horrible thing you could mention I could mention something wonderful. It's an opinion to view everything in a negative light.

I understand that it does, but it still applies to you.

If I said 'I have faith in magic' but wasn't religious, and skeptical about everything else, but when science comes around that nobody can understand for maybe 5 years, I still shouldn't sing 'It's magic, you know.... Can't believe it's not sooo!!" because there is still possibilities out there.

Same goes for optimistic faith. I'm very tired of when I have a personal problem or some other guy does, my friends just tell them "Look on the brightside, your life will be better then." No, it doesn't work that way.

Well, I'm sorry your life sucks so bad. I feel rather good about mine. I don't have faith in magic, although I do have faith in the natural flow of things. Fortunately I'm supported by science to hold such faith.

“The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired.” - Stephen Hawking