Should Christians celebrate Christmas

[Muffled]

We know that virgin verse is taken from Isaiah.

It is actually maiden - not virgin - so nothing miraculous.

It - as shown - takes place during the war in which Ahaz and Isaiah find themselves.

The sign is for AHAZ, - and as such can not be about a future Jesus.

Isa 7:1 And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin the king of Syria, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up toward Jerusalem to war against it, but could not prevail against it.

Isa 7:4 And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah.

Isa 7:7 Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.

Isa 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.

Isa 7:9 And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a maiden shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Those Kings are mentioned in Isa 7:1 and Isa 7:4, etc.

Before the child is old enough to know good from evil - both of those kings will be forsaken.

OBVIOUSLY NOT A FUTURE JESUS.

Nor would the Jewish Messiah require a virgin birth.

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I believe you have said it all before and never proven it.

 

[Muffled]

So it was suicide is what you're saying? Which is a sin in the eyes of the church. He knew why he was there and went forth, that is willingly killing himself, which is wrong to Christians

I believe you do not understand. the sin is doing something outside the will of God in taking a life. Jesus is within the will of God so there is no sin.

 

[Forgemaster]

I believe you do not understand. the sin is doing something outside the will of God in taking a life. Jesus is within the will of God so there is no sin.

So now God is exempt from his own rules? Yes because that's a fair and merciful God for you. If he can do whatever he wants and it's not wrong then who's to say what is good and what is evil? Certainly not your God as he can flip flop the two at will.

 

[Ingledsva]

I believe you have said it all before and never proven it.

The text itself - as shown - proves it.

EDIT - Forgot to add - tell me how a sign for Ahaz and Isaiah who is with him, - is a future Jesus - long after they are dead?

How is something that takes place after they are DEAD - a sign for them?

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[Ingledsva]

I believe you do not understand. the sin is doing something outside the will of God in taking a life. Jesus is within the will of God so there is no sin.

Jesus does NOT claim to be a God, or part of any trinity.

Human Sacrifice has been illegal for a long time.

He tells us he must complete this.

He willingly commits suicide, - by the ancient human sacrifice to take away sins. - which became illegal - and was switched for animal sacrifice.

That ancient sacrifice was a human which took on the group's sins, - obviously not gods.

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[URAVIP2ME]

1. - Then he obviously wasn't God in any form.
2. - Both Tanakh and NT say God ordains, and knows, everything. And that is what the Christian Churches teach. Having a choice - doesn't mean a God wouldn't know the outcome.
Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10).
“Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).
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In the beginning was the Genesis ' tree of life ' on earth and God makes known to us what is still to come that in the end there will again be the ' tree of life ' on earth - Revelation 22:2

God knows our hearts at the moment, but we can choose to change a heart of stone into a heart of flesh.
We choose whether to repent or perish ( be destroyed ) - 2 Peter 3:9
Just as in Noah's day, God knows hearts when people are past the point of no return, no remorse, no repenting, but as to who will be part of Revelation 7:14 is an unknown number.
We all have the free-will choice to choose - Deuteronomy 30:19, just as Joshua made his own choice - Joshua 24:15
By the coming ' time of separation ' takes place on earth - Matthew 25:31-33 - the ' goats ' will have reached the point of no return because they are like the people of Noah's day.
- Matthew 24:37

 

[Ingledsva]

In the beginning was the Genesis ' tree of life ' on earth and God makes known to us what is still to come that in the end there will again be the ' tree of life ' on earth - Revelation 22:2

God knows our hearts at the moment, but we can choose to change a heart of stone into a heart of flesh.
We choose whether to repent or perish ( be destroyed ) - 2 Peter 3:9
Just as in Noah's day, God knows hearts when people are past the point of no return, no remorse, no repenting, but as to who will be part of Revelation 7:14 is an unknown number.
We all have the free-will choice to choose - Deuteronomy 30:19, just as Joshua made his own choice - Joshua 24:15
By the coming ' time of separation ' takes place on earth - Matthew 25:31-33 - the ' goats ' will have reached the point of no return because they are like the people of Noah's day.
- Matthew 24:37

It says he knows what is to come.

Being given a choice, - does not negate a God knowing ahead, what will happen.

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[URAVIP2ME]

So it was suicide is what you're saying? Which is a sin in the eyes of the church. He knew why he was there and went forth, that is willingly killing himself, which is wrong to Christians

Did Adam willingly kill himself because Adam knew eating from the forbidden fruit carried with it the death penalty ?
Both Satan and Adam were under good conditions.
Satan challenged Job ( Job 2:4-5 ) that under adverse conditions No one would be faithful to God.
Touch our ' flesh ' ( loose physical health ) and we would Not serve God.
So, under adverse conditions both Job and Jesus proved God a liar and so can we.
Under bad conditions Jesus proved faithful til his dying breath.
Thus, sinless Jesus balanced the Scales of Justice for us, and opened up the way for us to have a resurrection.
We can Not resurrect oneself or another, so we need someone who can do that for us. Faithful Jesus can and will - Revelation 1:18; Acts of the Apostles 24:15

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It says he knows what is to come.
Being given a choice, - does not negate a God knowing ahead, what will happen.
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Yes, God knows what is to come/ happen and He lets us know the happy climax that mankind will see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' on earth - Revelation 22:2
If it were Not for the gift of free-will choices then we would be robots. We are Not robots. Just as Adam was Not forced to disobey God and break God's Law.
So, who will be part of Revelation 7:14 is up to each person to choose, choose if they want to be one of the 'sheep' or not - Matthew 25:31-33,40.
God does Not make our choice for us, we can all free-will choose to repent or Not repent - 2 Peter 3:9; Deuteronomy 30:19

 

[Forgemaster]

Did Adam willingly kill himself because Adam knew eating from the forbidden fruit carried with it the death penalty ?
Both Satan and Adam were under good conditions.
Satan challenged Job ( Job 2:4-5 ) that under adverse conditions No one would be faithful to God.
Touch our ' flesh ' ( loose physical health ) and we would Not serve God.
So, under adverse conditions both Job and Jesus proved God a liar and so can we.
Under bad conditions Jesus proved faithful til his dying breath.
Thus, sinless Jesus balanced the Scales of Justice for us, and opened up the way for us to have a resurrection.
We can Not resurrect oneself or another, so we need someone who can do that for us. Faithful Jesus can and will - Revelation 1:18; Acts of the Apostles 24:15

God intervened with Job so really i don't know if that counts but can you really say Adam knew the death penalty? He didn't know evil yet so death would be a forge in concept to him, and he probably had no idea what it was to disobey until it was too late Since he had no knowledge of evil. And of course we only need to be resurrected by your God if he exists and I don't think he does.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

God intervened with Job so really i don't know if that counts but can you really say Adam knew the death penalty? He didn't know evil yet so death would be a forge in concept to him, and he probably had no idea what it was to disobey until it was too late Since he had no knowledge of evil. And of course we only need to be resurrected by your God if he exists and I don't think he does.

According to Genesis 2:16 it was as if God put up a No-trespassing sign on His one and only tree. So, in advance Adam was told you eat, you die. No lack of knowledge there.
Adam's wife also already knew the Law because she referred to the Law when replying to Satan at Genesis 3:2-4.

How many fruit trees are on earth ? ___________ If you had a generous neighbor who had many fruit trees in his yard and he told you that you can come over any time you want and have as much of his fruit as you want ' except ' stay away from just one particular tree. How would you view your neighbor ?

 

[Forgemaster]

According to Genesis 2:16 it was as if God put up a No-trespassing sign on His one and only tree. So, in advance Adam was told you eat, you die. No lack of knowledge there.
Adam's wife also already knew the Law because she referred to the Law when replying to Satan at Genesis 3:2-4.

How many fruit trees are on earth ? ___________ If you had a generous neighbor who had many fruit trees in his yard and he told you that you can come over any time you want and have as much of his fruit as you want ' except ' stay away from just one particular tree. How would you view your neighbor ?

Yes but if I had no knowledge of wrong then how am I to know that eating from that tree is wrong, he says no but I have no idea that disobeying is a problem, I probably don't know what it means to disobey as I have no knowledge of evil of any sort

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yes but if I had no knowledge of wrong then how am I to know that eating from that tree is wrong, he says no but I have no idea that disobeying is a problem, I probably don't know what it means to disobey as I have no knowledge of evil of any sort

That tree stood for the Law. Was the Law evil ?
A Law today says 'don't drink and drive'. Is that Law evil in itself ?
A&E were banished Not because they knew evil, but banished because they 'disobeyed' God.
A person who drinks and drives could be fined or jailed because they ' sinned ', so to speak, against the motor vehicle code. Is there something wrong with the code or the person?
By stealing God's fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and bad, then Adam was in effect saying he knows better than God what is good or evil.
By eating, Adam was in effect taking the Law out of God's hands and placing the Law into his own hands, people's hands, as the best way of governing.
Adam set up People Rule as superior to God Rule as the best way of governing over mankind.
Time was necessary to show in mankind's history who was right? Does People Rule bring Peace on Earth ?

 

[Forgemaster]

That tree stood for the Law. Was the Law evil ?
A Law today says 'don't drink and drive'. Is that Law evil in itself ?
A&E were banished Not because they knew evil, but banished because they 'disobeyed' God.
A person who drinks and drives could be fined or jailed because they ' sinned ', so to speak, against the motor vehicle code. Is there something wrong with the code or the person?
By stealing God's fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and bad, then Adam was in effect saying he knows better than God what is good or evil.
By eating, Adam was in effect taking the Law out of God's hands and placing the Law into his own hands, people's hands, as the best way of governing.
Adam set up People Rule as superior to God Rule as the best way of governing over mankind.
Time was necessary to show in mankind's history who was right? Does People Rule bring Peace on Earth ?

You don't seem to get what I'm saying so I'm just going to ask. If Adam had no idea, not a clue about evil and wrong, how was he supposed to know that it was wrong to eat the fruit whether or not God told him so

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You don't seem to get what I'm saying so I'm just going to ask. If Adam had no idea, not a clue about evil and wrong, how was he supposed to know that it was wrong to eat the fruit whether or not God told him so

God educated Adam - Genesis 2:15-17 - that it was wrong/deadly to break His Law ' before ' Adam broke God's Law.
Even when a parent or teacher tells a minor child something is wrong, and there is spell-out consequences for wrong behavior doesn't the child generally understand ?
Adam was a son of God, but Not a minor child, but a full grown man. Eve too showed she comprehended or understood the Law - Genesis 3:2-4 - in her reply to Satan.

 

[Forgemaster]

God educated Adam - Genesis 2:15-17 - that it was wrong/deadly to break His Law ' before ' Adam broke God's Law.
Even when a parent or teacher tells a minor child something is wrong, and there is spell-out consequences for wrong behavior doesn't the child generally understand ?
Adam was a son of God, but Not a minor child, but a full grown man. Eve too showed she comprehended or understood the Law - Genesis 3:2-4 - in her reply to Satan.

Ok so if God already taught them good AND evil then why was the tree even there?

 

[Muffled]

The text itself - as shown - proves it.

EDIT - Forgot to add - tell me how a sign for Ahaz and Isaiah who is with him, - is a future Jesus - long after they are dead?

How is something that takes place after they are DEAD - a sign for them?

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Just because a sign is given does not mean that they will see the fulfillment of it.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus does NOT claim to be a God, or part of any trinity.

Human Sacrifice has been illegal for a long time.

He tells us he must complete this.

He willingly commits suicide, - by the ancient human sacrifice to take away sins. - which became illegal - and was switched for animal sacrifice.

That ancient sacrifice was a human which took on the group's sins, - obviously not gods.

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I believe this is a false statement that you have never proven.

I believe God is not under a legal system that ws given to men.

I believe He died for sins once for all time so that there is no longer a need for sacrifice.

I believe I am not sure what you are saying here, but I see it as a more direct intervention of God in removing sins which is the ultimate that He can do.

 

[Forgemaster]

I believe this is a false statement that you have never proven.

I believe God is not under a legal system that ws given to men.

I believe He died for sins once for all time so that there is no longer a need for sacrifice.

I believe I am not sure what you are saying here, but I see it as a more direct intervention of God in removing sins which is the ultimate that He can do.

I notice each sentence begins with the same words. You can believe whatever you wish, what makes you more right than us?

 

[Ingledsva]

Just because a sign is given does not mean that they will see the fulfillment of it.

It doesn't say a prophecy is given!

It specifically says a SIGN is given to Ahaz.

Isa 7:10 Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,

Isa 7:11 Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above. ( 'ôth a sign, signal, beacon, evidence)

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a maiden shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Those Kings are mentioned in Isa 7:1 and Isa 7:4, etc.

Before the child is old enough to know good from evil - both of those kings will be forsaken.

OBVIOUSLY NOT A FUTURE JESUS.

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