Should christians ignore the OT?

[Zhakir]

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The original post has been removed. The text of the post can be read here: http://www.evilbible.com/do_not_ignore_ot.htm

 

[sojourner]

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The original post has been removed. The text of the post can be read here: http://www.evilbible.com/do_not_ignore_ot.htm

Y'know, this stuff is well-known to Christians. You don't need to point it out to us. Least of all do we need a Muslim telling Christians how to read and interpret their own scriptural writings. We don't tell you how to read the Koran...
The Bible was neither written literalistically, nor meant to be interpreted literallistically. Your diatribe here is worthless.
What I'm really tired of is people who don't know better, giving the Bible a cursory glance, telling me what it means, and then wagging an accusing finger at me.
Stop it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Many Christians now a days claim that the Old Testament is defunct for Jesus was the “lamb” to clear away its rules and regulations.

Straw man. I don't know of any Christians who do this. In fact, the whole notion of Jesus as the "Lamb of God" doesn't make sense without the context provided by the OT.

This is just scapegoat that Christians use to ignore the atrocities and bizarre laws commanded of OT. Their preachers spoon feed them that the Old Testament is no longer binding so that they can excuse the majority of evil that the bible promotes. I am so tired of Christians manipulating the scriptures so that they can assign a kinder nature to their God, that I have assembled a BRIEF list of verses which clearly show that the Old Testament is not to be ignored. Its laws should indeed be adhered to, for the New Testament demands it!

I disagree. I've seen a variety of interpretations of the Bible, positions on how the NT and the OT interact, and how Christians should respond to the Old Law. Yours is not the only valid position. In fact, it ignores much of the New Testament that you claim in support of your position.

 

[Zhakir]

Straw man. I don't know of any Christians who do this. In fact, the whole notion of Jesus as the "Lamb of God" doesn't make sense without the context provided by the OT.

And when i show "the evil of OT", many christians -even in this forum-disagree with you.

I disagree. I've seen a variety of interpretations of the Bible, positions on how the NT and the OT interact, and how Christians should respond to the Old Law. Yours is not the only valid position. In fact, it ignores much of the New Testament that you claim in support of your position.

Do you mean
Law Contradictions of the Bible:

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A portion of the original post has been removed. The text of the post can be read here: http://www.evilbible.com/do_not_ignore_ot.htm

i wanted to put it in a new thread but it's ok

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And when i show "the evil of OT", many christians -even in this forum-disagree with you.

Really? I wasn't aware we had any Marcionite members here. By all means, though, please point out a single Christian on this forum who doesn't believe that the OT has some sort of relevance to their faith.

 

[Alceste]

I think Christians should ignore the whole damn thing. I think you should ignore your Quran too, and that you should definitely stop plagiarizing lengthy diatribes from other websites in the guise of making conversation.

Do you have something against expressing your own opinion, or what? Does the Quran forbid it? Does Allah intend that his followers spam discussion forums with anti-Christian propaganda instead of demonstrating the beauty of Islam through their own words and actions? Or what?

Honestly, this is tedious. Why don't you just post ONE link to your pet website in ONE thread and leave it at that? No need to copy every passage of your "Quran Miracles" website and your "Evil Bible" website into multiple discussions - those who are interested can open your thread, follow your links and read it from the source.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I certainly hope that Christians ignore the OT. Otherwise, we're going to have quite a lot of people being stoned to death for various mundane acts and petty offenses.

 

[Green Gaia]

I don't think it should be ignored, but it should not be taken literally or believed to be written by a deity or without realizing the culture and time period in which it was written. Much like how I feel about the Qur'an.

 

[ayani]

Christians have different views on how Christians should respond to the OT, in light of the Gospels, Epistles, etc.

i take the OT as an historical, literal description of the events surrounding the creation of the world, the fall and dispersal of man, the forming of various nations, the calling of Abram, the calling of the Hebrews from Egypt, the founding of the Hebrew nation in present-day Israel, and the nation's history.

it is true that God commands a lot of bloodshed in the OT. in the greater historical context of the Bible, this is action taken against specific peoples, nations, and cities in response to their sin, arrogance, violence, and evil. so God in effect uses other nations (including the Hebrews) to punish, subdue, wipe out, or humble these peoples. and Israel also gets kicked a number of times by the Babylonians, Assyrians, ect. each of these nations being used by God to humble and correct His people.

so in effect, God uses nations to subdue and punish nations.

so why does God disallow killing in the Gospels if He was all for it previously?

the previous acts of violence were carried out in response to sin, evil, arrogance, and injustice.

Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the promised one through whom peace will come, and rule. so under Jesus' rule, in the life of the Christian, one is to love one's enemies, turn the other cheek, forgive wrongs, and serve all. God still punishes sin and error in the NT, sometimes with suffering and death (Luke 19:41-44 and Acts 5:1-9). but the Christian is to understand that it is God's job to punish evil, not ours.

many also argue that Christians ought to follow Mosaic Law, including keeping Saturday as a day of rest, and refraining from pork. yet Mosaic Law, while important, was given to the Hebrews, not the world. Jesus came for His own people, and also for all nations. we believe the Mosaic promise was fulfilled in and through Jesus, who technically broke Mosaic Law by healing and allowing people to do work on the Sabbath. hence many Christians would argue that Mosaic Law does not bind the believer in Messiah, as in Him we are justified with God not by what we do, but by faith in God's Son, and His grace.

some Christians do worship on Saturday, refrain from pork, etc. and i don't see a problem with that at all. but ultimately it's Jesus, and not Mosaic Law, which is central for us. Jesus rephrased the commandments of God for all people, into two- (Mark 12:28-31). He also healed on the sabbath, declared that it is what we say and express rather than what we eat which makes us unclean, and ate with sinners and tax collectors. we believe that as Messiah He is greater than Moses, came for all peoples, and that He fulfills a promise made with humanity stretching back before Moses- to Abraham and even to Eve.

so in other words, i would argue that it is not necessary for a believer in Jesus to adhere to Mosaic Law, but to the Law given in and through Jesus the Messiah, the one Moses wrote about, who came for all nations, to show and give the grace of God.

 

[Zhakir]

Really? I wasn't aware we had any Marcionite members here. By all means, though, please point out a single Christian on this forum who doesn't believe that the OT has some sort of relevance to their faith.

Ok

Scuba Pete
he said that god "changed his law"

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Scuba Pete
he said that god "changed his law"

That's not really what I asked for. And "changing his law" is not the same thing as "changing the law".

If you go by the analogy presented in Romans 7 and elsewhere in the New Testament, the Old Law still exists, but it's the law of the living. However, because believers have spiritually "died with Christ", they're no longer subject to the Old Law.

It's kind of like sailing from your home port out into international waters. Do the laws of your home country apply where you are? Generally no. Have any laws in your home country been repealed? No.

 

[ayani]

If you go by the analogy presented in Romans 7 and elsewhere in the New Testament, the Old Law still exists, but it's the law of the living. However, because believers have spiritually "died with Christ", they're no longer subject to the Old Law.

It's kind of like sailing from your home port out into international waters. Do the laws of your home country apply where you are? Generally no. Have any laws in your home country been repealed? No.

that is excellent. thank you, Penguin.

 

[Zhakir]

That's not really what I asked for. And "changing his law" is not the same thing as "changing the law".

If you go by the analogy presented in Romans 7 and elsewhere in the New Testament, the Old Law still exists, but it's the law of the living. However, because believers have spiritually "died with Christ", they're no longer subject to the Old Law.

It's kind of like sailing from your home port out into international waters. Do the laws of your home country apply where you are? Generally no. Have any laws in your home country been repealed? No.

***Sure
**** Let's not talk about law contradictions,but please read
“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

***Sure
**** Let's not talk about law contradictions,but please read
“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

Did you actually bother to read my last post? It addressed this very issue.

The Old Law hasn't been repealed or relaxed; it's still in full effect, but it only ever governed earthly things, and believers are no longer earthly.

Or at least, that's what I get from my reading of the Bible, and from what I gather, many Christian denominations preach something close to this.

 

[ayani]

Zhakir ~

we believe that the Law was accomplished / fulfilled in and through Jesus' death and resurrection.

after He had risen, those who believe in Him have the chance to be made right with God through faith in Him, and God's grace. we have the chance to receive the Holy Spirit, know God personally, and be made new in Christ.

so the Mosaic Law really doesn't apply anymore, to a Christian. it was given once in history to God's chosen people, not to the world. through the Hebrew people Jesus came into the world, in fulfillment of Jewish prophecy but also as the Savior of all mankind. so in Jesus, the details of Mosaic Law no longer need to be followed. it is not following religious law which saves us, but God's Son who reconciles us to God, and gives us the inclination and desire and ability to love God, and to love one another.

 

[Zhakir]

Zhakir ~

we believe that the Law was accomplished / fulfilled in and through Jesus' death and resurrection.

after He had risen, those who believe in Him have the chance to be made right with God through faith in Him, and God's grace. we have the chance to receive the Holy Spirit, know God personally, and be made new in Christ.

so the Mosaic Law really doesn't apply anymore, to a Christian. it was given once in history to God's chosen people, not to the world. through the Hebrew people Jesus came into the world, in fulfillment of Jewish prophecy but also as the Savior of all mankind. so in Jesus, the details of Mosaic Law no longer need to be followed. it is not following religious law which saves us, but God's Son who reconciles us to God, and gives us the inclination and desire and ability to love God, and to love one another.

You do? really? give me the context from the bible,please
***“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You do? really? give me the context from the bible,please
***“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

Try Colossians 2 for starters:

13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

[...]

20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

You do? really? give me the context from the bible,please
***“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

If I recall right before Jesus died on the cross he said "It is finished" At that point it was all accomplished, finally for the world to see we were about to witness that DEATH had no more hold over us. Satan had finally been defeated.

 

[Zhakir]

Try Colossians 2 for starters:

And that proves what? that

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

is a lie? you think?

 

[Zhakir]

If I recall right before Jesus died on the cross he said "It is finished" At that point it was all accomplished, finally for the world to see we were about to witness that DEATH had no more hold over us. Satan had finally been defeated.

So, at that time, the heavens and earth passed away?