Should Feminists be encouraging women to be strippers?

[Shermana]

What terrible sources. Mine as well just made up some numbers.

By all means please explain your critique. Surely you must have good reason to discrediting the study.

 

[Sunstone]

If most not all "fail to appreciate" something as art then is it really art at all?

Dallas, most people -- in my opinion -- don't know what makes a painting by Picasso great, let alone what makes a certain striptease great. However, that doesn't change the fact the painting is great, nor does it change the fact the striptease is great. To appreciate art requires, among other things, an at least somewhat open mind -- something most of us simply don't have when it comes to stripping. So, the majority opinion can be damned -- and usually is.

If its not "used" as art ?Kind of like if "most" just not all were using a Picasso as t.v tray to hold your plate of food instead of appreciating it as art.

How the masses of people use a work of art does not change the work of art into something besides art.

 

[Sunstone]

Someone could view that as cultural appropriation

Is there something wrong with cultural appropriation? If so, is there something wrong with seeing bluejeans everywhere in the world these days?

 

[Sunstone]

It's art if it's meant to be creative in order to convey a meaning, or message, If it's just to turn someone on as much as possible or have dry sex it's not art.

I disagree with your notion of art. It seems you feel that sex degrades things. Is that true? Or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[DallasApple]

How the masses of people use a work of art does not change the work of art into something besides art.

O.K well than basically any thing we do (action/expression) or any object is a work of art as long as anyone says it is.

If I believe my fork and knife I got at Kohl's are art ..and the action of me using utilizing those utensils to aid in the eating of my meal is "artistic expression of my desire to eat"

Then indeed the utensils are art and I'm an artist.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I disagree with your notion of art. It seems you feel that sex degrades things. Is that true? Or am I misunderstanding you?

I never said it degrades it, I said it makes it not art if that's purely the purpose.
If you are paying someone to give you a boner it's not art

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Is there something wrong with cultural appropriation? If so, is there something wrong with seeing bluejeans everywhere in the world these days?

Yes it can be in a racist society, and how you use it can be wrong.

 

[DallasApple]

If you are paying someone to give you a boner it's not art

I'm just thinking the term "art" in this conversation really would make anything we do at all or any object "art" if anyone says it is.Getting up and walking across the room to retrieve a tissue for my nose I could say It was an artistic expression of my liberty and freedom to do just that.Or anything you pay anyone to do "for you " is an act of art or expression of art.If I hail a cab down for the express purpose of him taking me from a-b and he does..Not only is he an artist so am I .Because I "expressed" myself and then he drove me for money.Got the job done.

 

[Poeticus]

Yes it can be in a racist society, and how you use it can be wrong.

Namaste,

I believe the phrase "making them her own" in this context means that she was simply fusing them together. If someone still asks her from where she came up with the idea, she will still relay the origins: Thai and Indian. Thus, it is not cultural appropriation, because she isn't stating that she created the Thai and Indian dance styles. She is still giving credit where it is due.

M.V.

 

[Sunstone]

O.K well than basically any thing we do (action/expression) or any object is a work of art as long as anyone says it is.

If I believe my fork and knife I got at Kohl's are art ..and the action of me using utilizing those utensils to aid in the eating of my meal is "artistic expression of my desire to eat"

Then indeed the utensils are art and I'm an artist.

I'm just thinking the term "art" in this conversation really would make anything we do at all or any object "art" if anyone says it is.Getting up and walking across the room to retrieve a tissue for my nose I could say I was an artistic expression of my liberty and freedom to do just that.Or anything you pay anyone to do "for you " is an act of art or expression of art.If I hail a cab down for the express purpose of him taking me from a-b and he does..Not only is he an artist so am I .Because I "expressed" myself and then he drove me for money.Got the job done.

You raise good points about "what is art?" I started a thread on that a while back, and I don't want to derail this one, but I myself define art more broadly than many people. Especially more broadly than many non-artists. For instance, I would not necessarily consider how you wield a knife and fork to be art, but it could be art -- depends to a large degree on what extent you are using the medium of a knife and fork to express something -- that is, to communicate something.

But all of that is a digression from this thread.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I'm just thinking the term "art" in this conversation really would make anything we do at all or any object "art" if anyone says it is.Getting up and walking across the room to retrieve a tissue for my nose I could say I was an artistic expression of my liberty and freedom to do just that.Or anything you pay anyone to do "for you " is an act of art or expression of art.If I hail a cab down for the express purpose of him taking me from a-b and he does..Not only is he an artist so am I .Because I "expressed" myself and then he drove me for money.Got the job done.

When I go into a coffee shop and order a coffee and watch someone make it, it's obviously an artistic expression of their love for making me a good coffee. That's why when a pay for it they say, "come again to watch me make you a damn coffee, I hope you like it, you lazy git"

 

[Sunstone]

Namaste,

I believe the phrase "making them her own" in this context means that she was simply fusing them together. If someone still asks her from where she came up with the idea, she will still relay the origins: Thai and Indian. Thus, it is not cultural appropriation, because she isn't stating that she created the Thai and Indian dance styles. She is still giving credit where it is due.

M.V.

As a matter of fact, when she told me about using those styles of dance, she told me about a conversation she had with one of her customers about them. I gathered from what she said that they discussed the origins and inspiration for her dance, and that she was as forthcoming with him about their being inspired by Thai and Indian dancers and she was with me.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Namaste,

I believe the phrase "making them her own" in this context means that she was simply fusing them together. If someone still asks her from where she came up with the idea, she will still relay the origins: Thai and Indian. Thus, it is not cultural appropriation, because she isn't stating that she created the Thai and Indian dance styles. She is still giving credit where it is due.

M.V.

erm, no! Discourse around cultural appropriation is not that simple.

 

[Sunstone]

Yes it can be in a racist society, and how you use it can be wrong.

I hope you're not implying that my friend is a racist. That would be laughable.

 

[DallasApple]

Well....having "real" or some rather not so "common" talent at making coffee could be "art".But then again when I load the automatic coffee maker at home and set it to start at 6 am the net morning I can also say I'm an artist because I make the perfect pot" compared to my husband..LOL!!!

Maybe I'm more picky than some about what I see as "art".Or maybe I have a more narrow "definition" of what is art to ME.

 

[Sunstone]

Well....having "real" or some rather not so "common" talent at making coffee could be "art".But then again when I load the automatic coffee maker at home and set it to start at 6 am the net morning I can also say I'm an artist because I make the perfect pot" compared to my husband..LOL!!!

Maybe I'm more picky than some about what I see as "art".Or maybe I have a more narrow "definition" of what is art to ME.

I'll just restate what I've stated already: When it comes to stripping, you can (with a little practice) tell the difference between someone who is expressing her views of sexuality through dance and movement, and someone who is not. The former strikes me as art. The latter strikes me as most often pandering, or -- at best -- as bad art.

 

[Penumbra]

Namaste, Penumbra-ji:

Obviously the brain of the two are different, but that isn't my point, Penumbra-ji. Sexual trading or sexual "services" would still be occurring in matriarchal societies.

This, again, is repeated without evidence or a supported line of reasoning, MV.

I think sex services are going to occur at some level in just about every large society. A more relevant question is to what extent and in what form they would occur.

The mother Earth cults/religions (of a matriarchal society) such as that of Cybele in Ancient Anatolia conducted prominent orgies; the women calling the shots and the men obeying, (which is pretty awesome!!).

If you'd like to present it, I'd like to see what source you're referring to. Specifically the part where it says women call the shots and men obey.

So, there wouldn't be any sex trading going on in a matriarchal society that would be monopolized by women?

I'm not the one that has made assertions here, MV. You have.

What leads you to conclude that a matriarchal society would have male strippers to this extent?

Sex, stripping, orgies, etc. They would be happening if it was a patriarchal or a matriarchal society, regardless.

Asserted, but based on what reasoning?

Explain the Sarmatians and the Northern and Southern Scythians....the women fought with the men, side by side...as well as the Germanic Cimbri...

Since you're asking me to do that, you must have misunderstood my point. I didn't say there aren't female warriors. Some societies do have female warriors.

My point is that examples of matriarchal societies still tend to have male warriors, when they have warriors. Simple biology is a big factor. The profession of warrior worldwide tends to be a more masculine activity regardless of the patriarchal or matriarchal nature of the society, even though cultures have made various allowances for women being warriors too. When women are warriors, men tend to be warriors too, unlike civilizations where warriors are almost exclusively men. Even in the Sarmatians you described, generally the female warriors are virgins. Once they become mothers, they tend not to have been warriors unless there was some great need.

The way you seem to be presenting matriarchal societies is that they're some mirror image of patriarchal ones, with women going to war instead of men, with women being the ones to procure a lot of sex, etc. But historically, matriarchal societies have not really been like that.

I agree. But, sexual trading will still occur in a matriarchal society.

You can keep saying it but that doesn't make it a supported assertion.

 

[DallasApple]

But all of that is a digression from this thread.

Um I'm not so sure.I think the topic of stripping being an "art" same as gets said about porn gets carried away as far as how often its cited as so which is every time its the subject matter .(or just about anyway).

 

[DallasApple]

The latter strikes me as most often pandering, or -- at best -- as bad art.

Right I understand your distinction .Even though I think you are more generous than me calling it "bad art" when I can see it not as "art" at all.Again anymore than any(all) activitites we engage in.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I hope you're not implying that my friend is a racist. That would be laughable.

I don't know your friend. And I'm not implying they are a racist, although racism isn't as simple as being outright obviously racist.
I said yes it can be a problem in a racist society, and in what ways you change or misuse the aspects of a culture that is not your own can be wrong, esp when you are apart of a dominate group. And in particular, sexualising aspects of a minority culture that is not it's originally meaning in a western society can be, for a lack of a better word offensive, or even racist, especially if what you are taking has a sacred meaning to that culture.