Should God Not Send Everyone to Hell?

[Sabour]

I hope that you know I am a former Muslim. None of this is new to me.

I didn't know. Thank you for mentioning it.

This raises a whole other issue which concerns morality as belief in Allah seems to be the only proper foundation for morality according to most Muslims.

Muslims can free to think what they won't as long as they don't want to be practicing muslims.

This does not help in the slightest bit. Being an ex-Muslim I am overly familiar with these ayat

I was just trying to answer your statement "The minute you accept the religion you get your meal ticket to eternal paradise although the other are not as luck" from a muslim point of view. I didn't know you were familiar with the verses.

 

[Sabour]

The way I see it, "going to Heaven/Hell" would only be fair if people were always perfectly aware of their actions' consequences and generally had the choice between constructive and destructive actions.

Do you by your last part that people don't have the freedom of choice to do things or the free will?

 

[Smart_Guy]

Sorry, no can do. I am simply not at all convinced that it is helpful or constructive for that purpose.

Really? It surprises me that it can work at all.

I know that you are respectful, which is why I respect your own opinion... even if it puzzles me.

It's okay, it is a belief thing and it is working for me

If someone wants to do you harm but they don't because they want to minimize their chances to go to hell, wouldn't that be a good thing?

I personally stopped bad mouthing people a while ago just for that, which is a good thing!

 

[Sha'irullah]

I didn't know. Thank you for mentioning it.

Most doubt the sincerity of my past but yeah, I was a Muslim for 2 years

Muslims can free to think what they won't as long as they don't want to be practicing muslims.

Little bit discouraging for people to become Muslims

I was just trying to answer your statement "The minute you accept the religion you get your meal ticket to eternal paradise although the other are not as luck" from a Muslim point of view. I didn't know you were familiar with the verses.

This still does not change though because according to most ulama no Muslim can be placed into hell for eternity although temporarily. Along with this is the fact that what is deemed immoral by human standards can be made moral by Islamic standards

 

[Sabour]

Most doubt the sincerity of my past but yeah, I was a Muslim for 2 years

I would be more than happy to discuss that. Of course if you want to

Little bit discouraging for people to become Muslims

Lol. What I meant is that not every called "muslim" is an actual "muslim". And not every "saying" coming from the mouth of a muslim is necessarily true. Personally, when presented with any information about Islam, I look at the proof. I know people sometimes blow things out of proportion.

This still does not change though because according to most ulama no Muslim can be placed into hell for eternity although temporarily. Along with this is the fact that what is deemed immoral by human standards can be made moral by Islamic standards

Well I have some questions on that and on the way people understand it.

Can you provide me with the hadith or the proof about that?

You know Arabic right ?

 

[LuisDantas]

Do you by your last part that people don't have the freedom of choice to do things or the free will?

Neither. It is the nature of this existence that we do indeed lack freedom of choice, albeit with wildly varying degrees of restriction.

Nor does Free Will exist as a meaningful concept, far as I can tell. It seems to amount to a name for the mystery of how come existence isn't perfect if God is.

 

[LuisDantas]

It's okay, it is a belief thing and it is working for me

If someone wants to do you harm but they don't because they want to minimize their chances to go to hell, wouldn't that be a good thing?

No, I don't think it would be a good thing, although I suppose it would be convenient for me in the immediate term.

I personally stopped bad mouthing people a while ago just for that, which is a good thing!

I hope those people did not need to be bad mouthed, then.

 

[Sabour]

Neither. It is the nature of this existence that we do indeed lack freedom of choice, albeit with wildly varying degrees of restriction.

Nor does Free Will exist as a meaningful concept, far as I can tell. It seems to amount to a name for the mystery of how come existence isn't perfect if God is.

I think I can provide you with an answer to your first part but I am not sure whether the information is accurate or not as I didn't verify it my self.

Well there are many things besides free will. It is not like you have control over everything. But for example, you do have a free will right now as to you would answer my reply or not. I have a free will to whether I would go to the mosque and pray or not.

If I decided to go, but I couldn't because something happened, than I would be rewarded as if I really went. Because that was my intention. Provided that I truly wanted to go of course.

Besides, prayer and asking Allah for something may change things that were bound to happen.

 

[kashmir]

It's okay, it is a belief thing and it is working for me

If someone wants to do you harm but they don't because they want to minimize their chances to go to hell, wouldn't that be a good thing?

I personally stopped bad mouthing people a while ago just for that, which is a good thing!

Whats even better is that non-believers don't need to be threatened with the notion of an invisible made up hell to be good people, being a good moral person comes natural for them.
On the other hand, believers have a get out of jail free card that never expires and has unlimited usages.

 

[LuisDantas]

I think I can provide you with an answer to your first part but I am not sure whether the information is accurate or not as I didn't verify it my self.

Well there are many things besides free will. It is not like you have control over everything. But for example, you do have a free will right now as to you would answer my reply or not. I have a free will to whether I would go to the mosque and pray or not.

I don't think I can agree. Far as I can tell, that is an odd choice of words, involving neither actual freedom nor even a will as such.

You and I can make choices, sure. But they are by no means free. Quite the opposite really; they (nearly?) always cost us other choices and some expense of time and attention. They are also limited by our knowledge, perspective, experience, expectations and conditioning. Calling that "free" is in my opinion actually misleading.

As for will, that is also an odd word to use. Far too often we have no good idea of what we are searching, and choose out of lack of options, social pressure or simple lack of desire to try something new.

If I decided to go, but I couldn't because something happened, than I would be rewarded as if I really went. Because that was my intention. Provided that I truly wanted to go of course.

Besides, prayer and asking Allah for something may change things that were bound to happen.

Maybe so. But if so, I don't think that involves free will in any way, nor is that really helped by a belief in Hell.

 

[LuisDantas]

Whats even better is that non-believers don't need to be threatened with the notion of an invisible made up hell to be good people, being a good moral person comes natural for them.
On the other hand, believers have a get out of jail free card that never expires and has unlimited usages.

And which leads many of them into very unhealthy religious habits, namely self-indulgence (far too many people assume that they are "saved" despite diving deep into abominable behavior), inappropriate judgement of others (for being "unrepentant unbelievers") and emotional manipulation of their own children and whoever else makes the mistake of listening to them.

 

[kashmir]

And which leads many of them into very unhealthy religious habits, namely self-indulgence (far too many people assume that they are "saved" despite diving deep into abominable behavior), inappropriate judgement of others (for being "unrepentant unbelievers") and emotional manipulation of their own children and whoever else makes the mistake of listening to them.

What about the ones who blow themselves up and take out innocent people and the sicko priests?

Don't get me wrong, I am not judging all holy people by pointing out the evil ones, its just the evil ones think they have a get out of jail free card and to me, that is more dangerous than anything.

 

[LuisDantas]

Not only that. Emphasizing the concepts of heaven and hell may easily harm the discernment between good and evil, as well.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I hope those people did not need to be bad mouthed, then.

Actually, I even stopped bad mouthing who does deserve being bad mouthed. If I bad mouth them even if they deserved it, there could come further complications and harm. It is called being the better person

But if I lose my cool and want to, I do get back at them in a civilized way

Whats even better is that non-believers don't need to be threatened with the notion of an invisible made up hell to be good people, being a good moral person comes natural for them.

Non believers, as you say, have their own reasons to be good people. Something believers, whom you seem to criticize their morals, respect and can learn from too. I also said this before:

...an extra defense line to prevent some people from doing evil

So having, let's say, a reason to be good becomes having two reasons to be good now, which is a good thing no matter what, which doubles the moral values!

On the other hand, believers have a get out of jail free card that never expires and has unlimited usages.

I beg your pardon, I'm afraid my humble mind, ironically being Smart Guy, can't get your point here!

You seem to have something against believers, judging by your choice of words. I'm sorry if that is true. But whatever it was or whoever was behind it, I and so many other believers don't deserve to be judged the same way those you might have bad experience with!

 

[kashmir]

Actually, I even stopped bad mouthing who does deserve being bad mouthed. If I bad mouth them even if they deserved it, there could come further complications and harm. It is called being the better person

But if I lose my cool and want to, I do get back at them in a civilized way



Non believers, as you say, have their own reasons to be good people. Something believers, whom you seem to criticize their morals, respect and can learn from too. I also said this before:



So having, let's say, a reason to be good becomes having two reasons to be good now, which is a good thing no matter what, which doubles the moral values!



I beg your pardon, I'm afraid my humble mind, ironically being Smart Guy, can't get your point here!

You seem to have something against believers, judging by your choice of words. I'm sorry if that is true. But whatever it was or whoever was behind it, I and so many other believers don't deserve to be judged the same way those you might have bad experience with!

Huh?
At this current time, I believe Jesus Christ was of a high morality.
His teachings makes more sense than any other man to ever have existed.
But I can not deny that all holy books are full of contradictions.
Given that, I have closed those books and put them away.


According to your own words, hell is a tool to keep people from sinning.
If a person needs that sort of threatening to be a good person, it will do no good because God also forgives all sins.

Non-believers do not have that world view, they are good people because they want to be.
Believers cant leach off of the world view of the non-believer, its a paradox to claim a believer also has the world views of a non believer.
If a believer needs a holy book to tell them right from wrong, they then have the option to completely exploit the scriptures to their liking.

The world around us show this to be true, if it were not true, then men would not fly planes into buildings, nor rape kids and hide behind holy books while doing it.
The holy books and its writings obviously meant nothing to those people.
Specially the ones kidnapping kids and selling them into slavery.
Oh yah, the books do mean something to them, the get of jail free card.

If explaining the truth as I see it from my perspective offends you, then I can not help that, it is not directed at you personally.
What I said is directed at religion, not you.
If you wish to make it personal "to get back at me"
That is on you.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Huh?
At this current time, I believe Jesus Christ was of a high morality.
His teachings makes more sense than any other man to ever have existed.
But I can not deny that all holy books are full of contradictions.
The morality they teach become completely twisted.
Given that, I have closed those books and put them away.
They were written by man and completely made up.

According to your own words, hell is a tool to keep people from sinning.
If a person needs that sort of threatening to be a good person, it will do no good because God also forgives all sins.

Non-believers do not have that world view, they are good people because they want to be.
Believers cant leach off of the world view of the non-believer, its a paradox to claim a believer also has the world views of a non believer.
If a believer needs a holy book to tell them right from wrong, they then have the option to completely exploit the scriptures to their liking.

The world around us show this to be true, if it were not true, then men would not fly planes into buildings, nor rape kids and hide behind holy books while doing it.
The holy books and its writings obviously meant nothing to those people.
Specially the ones kidnapping kids and selling them into slavery.
Oh yah, the books do mean something to them, the get of jail free card.

If explaining the truth as I see it from my perspective offends you, then I can not help that, it is not directed at you personally.
What I said is directed at religion, not you.
If you wish to make it personal "to get back at me"
That is on you.

Okay

 

[kashmir]

"Huh" you say? Grow up at least to the level of this respected website and don't use such expressions in a conversation I took respectfully so far!

And, you say Jesus was of high morality then you bash believers? Even children these days know that at least Jews, Christians and Muslims are all believers!

You're consumed with hatred and malice that worsening my respect to you!

People like you do not belong here in this respected place. Here we we do civilized discussions and respect one another's persons and faiths!

And don't act righteous and claim that I were trying to get back at you. What I said before was completely respectful to to contrary to the tone and clear intention you keep on using, and only on the defense while you kept on the offense. Stop the provocative childishness!

why is all your replies directed at me personally to insult?
So, men dont fly planes into buildings because their god told them too?
Men dont rape kids and the church covers it up because their god told them to?
Parents dont deny their kids medicine and let them die a painful death because that is what their god tells them to do?

Again, explain how the idea of hell stopped these people.

Can you have a respectable convo without the personal attacks?
Thanks.

 

[One God]

The most major complaint with religions that believe in hell is that they give the adherents a get-out-of-jail-free card that permits them to escape God's judgement. The minute you accept the religion you get your meal ticket to eternal paradise although the other are not as lucky. Those that see through the fallacies of this process realize that this is far from fair and just. What is even more humorous is that many such religions claim to promote equality and justice yet have the most lopsided view of morality. As it is already known that religions lead to the lack of moral stability when applied in ethics so expecting morality in the god that promotes the lack thereof by offering absolutes is of no surprise.

A murderer, rapist or a thief can escape god's wrath by merely converting. Even if it is the religion of Islam where Muslims may be punished(temporarily) for transgressions they still receive the paradise of hedonism.

Would it not be fair for a true god of justice to punish ALL individuals stepping into the domain of Life After Death? Should not all individuals receive the torments of hell for their allotted time?

You are right. It sounds unfair for the one that doesn't do any wrong to the one that does every wrong and still gets the go ahead to the harmony of God (One may call it heaven). In my personal view, one of God's grace is to do Justice without any discrimination (Color, race, faith etc etc etc). And God is also known for being merciful. Now if I have done something wrong, and I look for forgiveness. Then I must first accept my wrong doing, then ask for forgiveness. So I guess it varies from person to person and as God sees one fit (But solely on the discretion of God) to be punished or not.

 

[Desert Snake]

There is no explicit concept of heaven in the OT and it is left for the Jews to decide. What I am interested in is the NT if you are a Christian.

"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'"(John 14:6)

If you didn't want my opinion, why did you ask such a general question?
If you want that specific question answered like that, ask in the Christianity DIR.

 

[Smart_Guy]

disrespect

why is all your replies directed at me personally to insult?
So, men dont fly planes into buildings because their god told them too?
Men dont rape kids and the church covers it up because their god told them to?
Parents dont deny their kids medicine and let them die a painful death because that is what their god tells them to do?

Again, explain how the idea of hell stopped these people.

Can you have a respectable convo without the personal attacks?
Thanks.

I deleted that post before you supposedly quoted it and posted!

Please ignore it!

I sincerely apologize for any disrespect came out of me!