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Should ID be taught in public schools?

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you're going to educate young minds about religions, why not include lack-of-religion? Comparative religious studies could make up a childs mind if they're interested enough, might as well include a bit of everything.

If you have to devote time to a discussion of non belief for every subject of fact presented in the classroom you'd spend most of your time discussing dissenters and completely confusing the students.
A geology class can't waste time on the Flat Earth Society, Young Earth Christianity or techtonic plate theory or catastrophism deniers. A unit on vulcanism can't waste time discussing Pele.

Including "a bit of everything" does not include atheism, which is nothing. You'd have to include a-fairyism, a-easter bunnyism, a-Odinism, a-chupacabraism &c in your unit. The class would take forever and would produce completely baffled students.
 

RobGelber

RobGelber
Well, after reading through this thread, I've come to the conclusion that I.D. should not be taught in science classes, and probably shouldn't be taught in schools in general either. I thought maybe it should before, but now I don't.

For the record, I am agnostic regarding the existence of the Christian God, yet open to spirituality in general. I don't believe Genesis 1 and 2 because they read like mythological accounts of creation in general and like Mesopotamian/Canaanite mythology in particular. I suspected I.D. might have something useful to say about origins although I recognize it's part of a broader political/theological agenda that I don't much like.

But my question is whether the grand theory of evolution, the larger narrative, should be taught in science classes either. Here's my thinking.

I'll start by going back to a part of an article by Stephen Jay Gould mentioned earlier in the thread. (If you do a google search on the quoted text, you'll find it.) He begins by pointing out that a "theory" in science is something pretty solid. Like gravitational theory. He then points out that the idea that life originates through evolution can be proved through a number of means. First, evolution it can be observed continuing to happen in the laboratory. But then he goes on to build his case this way:

"[FONT=&quot]The second and third arguments for evolution—the case for major changes—do not involve direct observation of evolution in action. They rest upon inference, but are no less secure for that reason.[/FONT]"

So here's Gould's admission. The narrative that evolution gives us about where life came from is only partly proved through science. The rest is proved through inferences from data. The narrative for how we got here is proved in much the same way as history is proved: through looking at the data available and drawing conclusions. Doing scientific tests about the principles that underlie the universe is only part of how the historical narrative regarding origins is constructed.

So I think I.D., rather than being science itself, brings into focus the limitations of science and of broad historical narratives. (I personally think there are probably better ways of bringing these ideas up than an I.D. scenario since I.D. is mostly about introducing an alternative narrative.)

Suppose that an alien ship actually did stop by our planet a million years ago and dropped off a couple of new species that happened to work well on our planet and maybe included a new innovation or two. (And I use the alien space ship here because I have serious doubts about the existence of the Christian God and because I like cliche science fiction scenarios. ;)) It seems to me that if this were the case, it would be impossible to either verify or deny the fact in a laboratory. We might be able to find other evidence from which we could make inferences that this is what happened. (The alien landing pad, for example.) Or we might not. The aliens might have covered their tracks really well and besides it’s been a long time since then. The landing pad might have been destroyed. But in any case, those space aliens are not coming back so science and pretty much just rational inference as well, is out as far as confirming things.

From what I can tell, the way evolutionists would react to the presence of the species introduced would be to make up a number of different inferences about ways of explaining how those species evolved from other, pre-existent species, debate the merits of their ideas, and then come to some sort of conclusion which fit the species into the broader evolutionary framework.

Now I'll be the first to admit, this is a far out scenario. But it seems to me that constructing a grand narrative of how we all got here is a very difficult task and is not entirely scientific, though science might be used as a part of how such a narrative would be created.

In science class, it seems to me that it's a good idea to teach about scientific evolutionary theories about how things work right now, but it might be better to move the broad histories to other areas such as classes in history or mythology.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank

What is it that you believe is in a contemporary Biology textbook that you believe to be false? For example, what, if anything, do you think modern Biology textbooks say aout Archaeopteryx that you believe to be false?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But there is a "grand narrative" of increasing complexity reflected in the fossil record, Rob, from 3.5 billion year old cyanobacteria to modern aardvarks.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Well, after reading through this thread, I've come to the conclusion that I.D. should not be taught in science classes, and probably shouldn't be taught in schools in general either. I thought maybe it should before, but now I don't.

For the record, I am agnostic regarding the existence of the Christian God, yet open to spirituality in general. I don't believe Genesis 1 and 2 because they read like mythological accounts of creation in general and like Mesopotamian/Canaanite mythology in particular. I suspected I.D. might have something useful to say about origins although I recognize it's part of a broader political/theological agenda that I don't much like.

But my question is whether the grand theory of evolution, the larger narrative, should be taught in science classes either. Here's my thinking.

I'll start by going back to a part of an article by Stephen Jay Gould mentioned earlier in the thread. (If you do a google search on the quoted text, you'll find it.) He begins by pointing out that a "theory" in science is something pretty solid. Like gravitational theory. He then points out that the idea that life originates through evolution can be proved through a number of means. First, evolution it can be observed continuing to happen in the laboratory. But then he goes on to build his case this way:

"[FONT=&quot]The second and third arguments for evolution—the case for major changes—do not involve direct observation of evolution in action. They rest upon inference, but are no less secure for that reason.[/FONT]"

So here's Gould's admission. The narrative that evolution gives us about where life came from is only partly proved through science. The rest is proved through inferences from data. The narrative for how we got here is proved in much the same way as history is proved: through looking at the data available and drawing conclusions. Doing scientific tests about the principles that underlie the universe is only part of how the historical narrative regarding origins is constructed.

So I think I.D., rather than being science itself, brings into focus the limitations of science and of broad historical narratives. (I personally think there are probably better ways of bringing these ideas up than an I.D. scenario since I.D. is mostly about introducing an alternative narrative.)

Suppose that an alien ship actually did stop by our planet a million years ago and dropped off a couple of new species that happened to work well on our planet and maybe included a new innovation or two. (And I use the alien space ship here because I have serious doubts about the existence of the Christian God and because I like cliche science fiction scenarios. ;)) It seems to me that if this were the case, it would be impossible to either verify or deny the fact in a laboratory. We might be able to find other evidence from which we could make inferences that this is what happened. (The alien landing pad, for example.) Or we might not. The aliens might have covered their tracks really well and besides it’s been a long time since then. The landing pad might have been destroyed. But in any case, those space aliens are not coming back so science and pretty much just rational inference as well, is out as far as confirming things.

From what I can tell, the way evolutionists would react to the presence of the species introduced would be to make up a number of different inferences about ways of explaining how those species evolved from other, pre-existent species, debate the merits of their ideas, and then come to some sort of conclusion which fit the species into the broader evolutionary framework.

Now I'll be the first to admit, this is a far out scenario. But it seems to me that constructing a grand narrative of how we all got here is a very difficult task and is not entirely scientific, though science might be used as a part of how such a narrative would be created.

In science class, it seems to me that it's a good idea to teach about scientific evolutionary theories about how things work right now, but it might be better to move the broad histories to other areas such as classes in history or mythology.

The Theory of Evolution (the "grand narrative") is one of the most robust, best supported and most important theories in science. If you dispute it, you should also dispute the theories of gravity, electro-magnetism and helio-centrism, which are not any better supported than the theory of evolution. By removing it from the curriculum, you would deprive students of one of our most important and best established scientific advances, in effect, go backwards and unlearn what we have worked so hard to learn.
 

tomspug

Absorbant
What is it that you believe is in a contemporary Biology textbook that you believe to be false? For example, what, if anything, do you think modern Biology textbooks say aout Archaeopteryx that you believe to be false?
That it's anything other than a primitive bird. There is no proof that it is a transitional creature at all, but it is constantly touted as such.

As far as the controversies around the others, they are clear as day in those wikipedia articles. Haeckal's embryos are misleading and possibly faked. Embryos, at their EARLIEST (as in, not shown in the diagrams) are not similar at all between species. There is, however, an hourglass effect where they tend to look more similar in middle-development (which is shown at the beginning of Haeckal's diagram, conveniently). Haeckal also cherry-picked which species embryos to show (salamanders to compare with fish and reptiles, instead of frogs, for amphibians).

Also, the tree of life is completely irrelevant. Two words: Cambrian explosion.
 

tomspug

Absorbant
The Theory of Evolution (the "grand narrative") is one of the most robust, best supported and most important theories in science. If you dispute it, you should also dispute the theories of gravity, electro-magnetism and helio-centrism, which are not any better supported than the theory of evolution. By removing it from the curriculum, you would deprive students of one of our most important and best established scientific advances, in effect, go backwards and unlearn what we have worked so hard to learn.
Look, I've finally started to do some research on this topic, and I think you need to go back to the books, man. I've found a large number of prominent scientists that have chosen to absolutely reject Darwin's theory of evolution. So, clearly, there IS a legitimate debate. I thought science was supposed to be open-minded, not close-booked.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Suppose that an alien ship actually did stop by our planet a million years ago and dropped off a couple of new species that happened to work well on our planet and maybe included a new innovation or two. (And I use the alien space ship here because I have serious doubts about the existence of the Christian God and because I like cliche science fiction scenarios. ;)) It seems to me that if this were the case, it would be impossible to either verify or deny the fact in a laboratory. We might be able to find other evidence from which we could make inferences that this is what happened. (The alien landing pad, for example.) Or we might not. The aliens might have covered their tracks really well and besides it’s been a long time since then. The landing pad might have been destroyed. But in any case, those space aliens are not coming back so science and pretty much just rational inference as well, is out as far as confirming things.
It depends how you approach the question.

The claim that aliens have never dropped a bunch of organisms off on Earth at any point in the past is unfalsifiable.

However, the claim that a particular species evolved from some other species is falsifiable, and if demonstrated to be true, would contradict the idea that it was dropped on Earth by aliens, since logically, a species could either have evolved from another Earth-bound species or have been placed here by aliens, but not both.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Look, I've finally started to do some research on this topic, and I think you need to go back to the books, man. I've found a large number of prominent scientists that have chosen to absolutely reject Darwin's theory of evolution. So, clearly, there IS a legitimate debate. I thought science was supposed to be open-minded, not close-booked.
Which scientists, which aspects of evolution do they take issue with, and why?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
That it's anything other than a primitive bird. There is no proof that it is a transitional creature at all, but it is constantly touted as such.
Every creature is a transitional creature. Being a primitive bird means that it is a transitional creature between the ancestor of birds--dinosaurs-- and modern birds. Are you denying that Arch. has any reptilian characteristics? If so you have succumbed to the siren song of Creationists. You should know that all Creationists lie all the time. Arch. has so many reptilians characteristics that for some time it was misidentified as a reptile. Would you care to debate the issue?

As far as the controversies around the others, they are clear as day in those wikipedia articles. Haeckal's embryos are misleading and possibly faked.
Do you think that modern textbooks feature Haekel's drawings?
Embryos, at their EARLIEST (as in, not shown in the diagrams) are not similar at all between species.
Yes they are.
There is, however, an hourglass effect where they tend to look more similar in middle-development (which is shown at the beginning of Haeckal's diagram, conveniently). Haeckal also cherry-picked which species embryos to show (salamanders to compare with fish and reptiles, instead of frogs, for amphibians).
Are you under the impression that modern textbooks are still teaching Haeckel's ideas?

Also, the tree of life is completely irrelevant. Two words: Cambrian explosion.
Also: ignorant baloney. The nested hierarchy of species and the phylogeny of life is completely well-grounded and extremely important to understand Biology at all. Irrelevant to what? To understand the relationships between living creatures, aka Biology, you need to understand what we know about their relationships.
 

tomspug

Absorbant
Of course, you can choose not to explore these issues for yourself if you don't want to, but the Cambrian explosion has baffled proponents of the tree of life, so maybe you should check it out.

And so what if the archaeopteryx has reptilian characteristics (I guess you're referring to the head), are you implying that your point is somehow a scientific argument? Have you noticed that the platypus looks like a duck. It must be a bird too! And a whale looks like a shark, so it must be a fish!
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Science advances, toms, and so do science textbooks. Here's the scoop from the horses mouth, Miller and Levine:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] This idea has been pushed back into the news recently by the news that Haeckel's drawings of embryonic similarities were not correct. British embryologist Michael Richardson and his colleages published an important paper in the August 1997 issue of Anatomy & Embryology showing that Haeckel had fudged his drawings to make the early stages of embryos appear more alike than they actually are! As it turns out, Haeckel's contemporaries had spotted the fraud during his lifetime, and got him to admit it. However, his drawings nonetheless became the source material for diagrams of comparative embryology in nearly every biology textbook, including ours!
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So, what have we done?
Well, we fixed it!
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In 1998 we rewrote page 283 of the 5th edition to better reflect the scientific evidence. Our books now contain accurate drawings of the embryos made from detailed photomicrographs:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
New-embryo-figure.gif

[/FONT]
moz-screenshot-1.jpg
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
Look, I've finally started to do some research on this topic, and I think you need to go back to the books, man. I've found a large number of prominent scientists that have chosen to absolutely reject Darwin's theory of evolution. So, clearly, there IS a legitimate debate. I thought science was supposed to be open-minded, not close-booked.
Out of interest, who? I've only ever encountered a few fringe idiots with dubious credentials.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Of course, you can choose not to explore these issues for yourself if you don't want to, but the Cambrian explosion has baffled proponents of the tree of life, so maybe you should check it out.
I assure that I'm familiar with the issues. No, the Cambrian explosions has not "baffled proponents of the tree of life." First, the word you are looking for is "Biologists." There are virtually no Biologists who do not accept the nested heirarchy of all living things, certainly none writing Biology textbooks for public high schools. Second, the Cambrian explosion has an important place near the base of that tree. Third, what do you allege is the false information about the Cambrian explosion or phylogeny currently being printed in high school biology textbooks?

And so what if the archaeopteryx has reptilian characteristics (I guess you're referring to the head), are you implying that your point is somehow a scientific argument? Have you noticed that the platypus looks like a duck. It must be a bird too! And a whale looks like a shark, so it must be a fish!
It's not about what it looks like, toms, but about the sum of characteristics that scientists use to identify it, and on which they base their conclusion that arch. is an early bird with reptilian characteristics. I realize that you think you know better than the world's Biologists, but if you don't mind I'll defer to their knowledge and expect our Biology textbooks to do the same. Are you saying that arch. is only a bird, and not descended from reptiles, retaining reptilian characteristics not present in later birds?

For example,
(Glencoe Biology (North Carolina Edition)- The Dynamics of Life, Copyright 2000, McGraw-Hill)
Page 386: "Recent fossil discoveries support the idea that modern birds evolved from some of these dinosaurs toward the end of this period. For example in Figure 14.8, you see the fossil of Archaeopteryx, a small dinosaur discovered in Germany. The fossil reveals that Archaeopteryx had feathers, a birdlike feature. You also see a present-day bird, the hoatzin, in Figure 14.8. This bird has a reptilian feature,
claws on its wings, for its first few weeks of life. It also flies poorly, as the earliest birds probably did. Paleontologists suggest that such evidence supports the idea that modern birds evolved from dinosaurs.”
The caption for Figure 14.8 states, “Both fossil evidence like this Archaeopteryx(a) and some characteristics of present-day birds like this hoatzin(b) suggest that dinosaurs might have been the ancestors of today’s birds.”

Are you denying that this is correct?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
tomspug said:
Look, I've finally started to do some research on this topic, and I think you need to go back to the books, man. I've found a large number of prominent scientists that have chosen to absolutely reject Darwin's theory of evolution. So, clearly, there IS a legitimate debate. I thought science was supposed to be open-minded, not close-booked.

Please name ten prominent Biologists who reject the Theory of Evolution. Or what do you consider to be "a large number?"
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Ahhh. Now we get to the point you are making.

You appear to be in denial about both the influence that the religious right has within the Republican party, and the amount of "pander" that their potential votes entitle them to.

If you doubt this relationship, perhaps you can explain the 180 degree reversal of John McCain over the last 18 months regarding his views on Falwell, Robertson, pro-choice, and his religious views. What do you attribute this "conversion" to, if not his pandering to the religious right?
Nice try. I question the use of the word "pander." There is little in the platform of the Republican party that a true religous conservative would agree with.
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
Nice try. I question the use of the word "pander." There is little in the platform of the Republican party that a true religous conservative would agree with.

I will wholeheartedly agree that the Republican party doesn't care one iota about the true interests of the true social conservative. In my opinion, that is painfully obvious, based on what is actually done in the legislature of this country.

Which makes it all the more ironic (to me) that the religious right insists on supporting whatever name appears on a ballot, as long as it is followed by an (R).

With all of that said, it is still immaterial to the point in question - the Republican party does, indeed, PANDER to the religious right. It is disgusting to watch the complete reversal in the positions of John McCain over the last 18 months.

Do you deny that he has reversed himself on matters that are important to the religious right, or that he simply did so as a conversion of his character?

EDIT: I just realized that you are trying to say that the platform of the Republcan party does not reflect the values of a "true religious conservative". How would you characterize the Republican planks on abortion, the issue of allowing the Ten Commandments in government buildings, nativity scenes, gay marriage, etc.? Are you saying that these issues don't align with "true religious conservatives", or are you saying something else?
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
I wonder if in order to serve on a Kansas school board... you have to marry your cousin(s).
 
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