Should incest be banned?

[nnmartin]

Hard to find evidence of that specific a nature without spending hours trawling around google - I may try later if I have time though.

but at least we seem to be making some kind of progress now I think.

We can now both agree on:

1. The banning of bestiality
2. The prohibition of children born out of incest.

agreed?

 

[Zoe Doidge]

Hard to find evidence of that specific a nature without spending hours trawling around google - I may try later if I have time though.

I suspect such an effort would be a waste of time, incest is rare enough that getting any kind of descent sample size would be all but impossible. When it's reported, it tends to be because there are children involved or because it was rape, and the effects of such obviously negate the relevance of any subtle manipulation.

When it comes to consensual incest the parties involved are unlikely to tell anyone let alone contribute to a scientific study regarding it.

but at least we seem to be making some kind of progress now I think.

We can now both agree on:

1. The banning of bestiality
2. The prohibition of children born out of incest.

agreed?

Yes I'd certainly agree with that.

 

[nnmartin]

Of course it would be very hard to actually catch someone in an incestuous relationship if no children were involved - they could just deny it.

but I still think banning incest in all cases sends the correct moral message out.

Whether this is subjective or not hardly matters - I mean what is wrong with having morals?

 

[Zoe Doidge]

Of course it would be very hard to actually catch someone in an incestuous relationship if no children were involved - they could just deny it.

but I still think banning incest in all cases sends the correct moral message out.

Whether this is subjective or not hardly matters - I mean what is wrong with having morals?

Because it's like banning sex to stop rape. You're imposing a blanket ban to try to prevent specific problems that only come about when other crimes are also taking place.

It amounts to imprisoning people for not harming anyone, which is immoral.

 

[nnmartin]

it's not the same as that.

quite simply it is banning incest to stop incest.

nothing wrong there.

Plenty of things are banned when they don't harm anyone so why should incest be a special case?

 

[Zoe Doidge]

quite simply it is banning incest to stop incest.

And we are back to square one. We have still not established any reasons why incest is wrong.

Plenty of things are banned when they don't harm anyone so why should incest be a special case?

Then it is likely that those things should not be banned either. Feel free to give some examples of banned practices that don't harm anyone and I'll tell you where I stand, but in any event other immoral laws shouldn't have any impact on this discussion.

 

[Tiberius]

I suggest you start a new thread on this very topic - could you handle that?

I think most people are capable of realising that a person who is involved in a sexual act when they don't want to be involved is being raped. I'm not sure why you don't understand that.

you never answered my previous question.

here it is again: If I have sex with my girlfriend to keep her happy but I don't want it myself then is she raping me?

Then you are being pressured into having sex with her, aren't you?

Err......no!

It is wrong for 2 reasons in this case.

Rape and Incest.

Of course, you've never shown why incest is wrong...

The funny thing is that is that she also disagrees with Incest so you are on your own here.

So what? I was agreeing with her comment that you don't seem to understand what "rape" is.

It is immoral.

Subjective opinion

It is depraved.

Subjective opinion.

It distorts the gene pool

Only when offspring are produced, so this argument carries no weight as long as the people involved use contraception.

It is a form of abuse.

It can be, but also can be non-abusive. Any form of sex has the capacity to be used as abuse.

It is against the order of nature.

Prove it.

It is against God's Law.

There is no God.

need any more reasons?

Considering you haven't provided a single valid reason yet, I'd say so.

Look who's avoiding the question now.

If she's already answered, I'd say she isn't avoiding the question.

did i say ick anywhere? I gave a psychological and biological reason.

Well, you said, "Its clearly a sing of mental/emotional problems" but you never said why it is clear.

I can say, "It is clear that all Hollywood movies are filmed on the moon" but that means nothing. It's just an unsupported claim. Just like what you said.

Incest needs to be evolved out out.

It seems that evolution is another one of those things that you just don't understand. You can't "evolve out" the ability to have sex with the opposite gender.

Those that perform incest are dysfunctional - it also produces abnormal offspring.

First, prove that a person who is involved in incest is dysfunctional.

Secondly, sex need not lead to children.

Contraception seems to be another thing you don't understand!

Hence, by banning it then over a period of time its incidence should decrease.

Because that worked so well with illegal drugs and theft and murder, didn't it?

I would also like to add that ALL incest is a form of abuse, whether consensual or not.

Prove it.

wrong way round there - no, incest is undesirable thus it is put aside as a taboo.

If that were true they wouldn't need to make laws against it.

absolute nonsense! - people do all sorts of despicable things that are against the law.

This does not mean they are desirable in the slightest.

Do some people enjoy incest? Seems to me that they desire it! Just because YOU PERSONALLY don't like it doesn't make it undesireable!

We can now both agree on:

1. The banning of bestiality

I never agreed to that.

2. The prohibition of children born out of incest.

I'm surprised to say it, but I agree on that one. Inbreeding can be shown to cause genetic problems in offspring.

quite simply it is banning incest to stop incest.

nothing wrong there.

Plenty of things are banned when they don't harm anyone so why should incest be a special case?

Or we could ban nose-picking to stop nose-picking.

And yes, there are plenty of harmless things that are banned. But the question should not be, "Why should incest be any different." The question should be, "Then why are those other things banned?"

Let me ask you a question, Martin. Why are things banned?

 

[Iti oj]

Nope.
You did not say "ick" anywhere.

However, your post says nothing about psychological reasons (unless of course you are going to TRY to claim that "unnatural" is some sort of special elite code word for "psychological") and your "biological" reason (I assume you are talking about your "genetic" remark) is left severely lacking.

Tell ya what can you demon-straight one time when incests has not been a sign of or caused psychological damage?

and you say the genetic reason is lacking i have 2 words for you inbreeding coefficient....
i was going to quote Darwin but its hard to find a good one that encompass everything... his own family tree makes a good case study of the dangers of inbreeding ironically

 

[Drolefille]

Tell ya what can you demon-straight one time when incests has not been a sign of or caused psychological damage?

and you say the genetic reason is lacking i have 2 words for you inbreeding coefficient....
i was going to quote Darwin but its hard to find a good one that encompass everything... his on family tree makes a good case study of the dangers of inbreeding ironically

Unknowing twins married, lawmaker says - CNN

Genes would be a concern for the individual but would not be a societal problem. We don't prohibit people with genetic defects that are dominant from marrying.

 

[Iti oj]

Unknowing twins married, lawmaker says - CNN

Genes would be a concern for the individual but would not be a societal problem. We don't prohibit people with genetic defects that are dominant from marrying.

I am impressed to see one so quickly. however i doubt many more case could be shown.

Can a case be shown where people knowingly engaged in incest? or only we didn't know?

 

[Drolefille]

I am impressed to see one so quickly. however i doubt many more case could be shown.

Can a case be shown where people knowingly engaged in incest? or only we didn't know?

Ah ah ah, no moving the goalposts.

Dangerous Love: German High Court Takes a Look at Incest - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

 

[Iti oj]

Ah ah ah, no moving the goalposts.

Dangerous Love: German High Court Takes a Look at Incest - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

your own article admits that these kind of cases are rare and most cases of incest are abuse.

Banning the whole concept prevents abusers from hiding behind consent.
Most cases are abuse. These people need protection. Banning incest is one level of this protection.

And if you think the rights of a few are more important then the well being of the gander, may i smoke a cigaret next to you in the dinner? maybe I'll chain smoke in the bar you go too.....

as for the genetic problems being that of the individual(and off spring)...Well an insectuist society would quickly degrade and fall apart. For the strength of the population and the country inbreeding is dangerous.

 

[Drolefille]

your own article admits that these kind of cases are rare and most cases of incest are abuse.

Not my article. And you asked for one case, then two, and now you don't care because most are abuse.

Banning the whole concept prevents abusers from hiding behind consent.
Most cases are abuse. These people need protection. Banning incest is one level of this protection.

By this logic, we should ban sex. Because banning the whole concept prevents abusers from hiding behind consent.

And if you think the rights of a few are more important then the well being of the gander

What does that mean?

, may i smoke a cigaret next to you in the dinner? maybe I'll chain smoke in the bar you go too.....

Smoking is always harmful.

as for the genetic problems being that of the individual(and off spring)...Well an insectuist society would quickly degrade and fall apart. For the strength of the population and the country inbreeding is dangerous.

Not a concern, most people would never engage in it.

 

[McBell]

I am impressed to see one so quickly. however i doubt many more case could be shown.

Can a case be shown where people knowingly engaged in incest? or only we didn't know?

How quickly we move the goal posts...

 

[McBell]

Not a concern, most people would never engage in it.

Yeah, well, that is only because it is illegal.
I mean, just ask them, they will tell you....

 

[Iti oj]

I didn't move the goal a second timel, demonstrating a few cases doesn't win your point considering how few they are.
as for banning sex... most of the time sex is not abuse, unlike incest where a majority of the cases are abuse.

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander was what i was referring too

 

[Iti oj]

I actually think its rather sad that you need to point out i modified "criteria" or a "goal" to win your argument. All good arguments and points get modified overtime and adapt with new information, so what? how does pointing it out help your cases?

 

[McBell]

unlike incest where a majority of the cases are abuse.

Really?
Care to prove it?

Oh yeah, you can't.
Cause with incest being a no no, people are not going to fess up.
So all you got is the data that says what you want it to say because you have absolutely no idea how much of it is actually going on.

 

[Drolefille]

I didn't move the goal a second timel, demonstrating a few cases doesn't win your point considering how few they are.
as for banning sex... most of the time sex is not abuse, unlike incest where a majority of the cases are abuse.

You asked for one, another, and then decided to ignore that there was one, and another. I'm not going to dig through a pile of research on the topic right now. I didn't have a point other than being able to provide an example.

The logic is still poor. And rape an abuse laws cover non-consensual incest.

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander was what i was referring too

That doesn't make sense in this context to me.

 

[Zoe Doidge]

unlike incest where a majority of the cases are abuse.

The majority of the known cases are abuse, because that tends to be when rape is discovered.

It makes sense that because it's a taboo and illegal that consensual cases of incest are likely to remain unknown.

Regardless, it is still unfair to ban something simply because it is abused by X% of people who involve themselves in it, unless X can be proven to be 100.