• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Should incest be banned?

InformedIgnorance

Do you 'know' or believe?
As has been mentioned before though, in incest conception is not always possible and even when it is possible, it can be prevented and even if it is not prevented, it can be aborted and even if it is not aborted the chances of abnormalities arising (without a sustained history of incest) is inconsiderable - and even then, there are many examples of non incestuous unions that have higher chances of birth defects and other abnormalities due to inheritable diseases possessed by (or carried by) their parents, and you have not suggested that those people be barred from having children.
 

atropine

Somewhere Out There
Assuming we're talking about consensual, adult relationships... or consensual people who are under the age of consent but within two years of each other... then how is it depraved, immoral or whatnot? They're just two people. Yeah, so they're related. Big whoop. Unless you knew them somehow, you could see a happy couple walking down the street and not even realize they're related.

And incest doesn't CAUSE medical problems. The problems already have to exist in the gene pool. If two people get tested for genetic problems before they have kids, and their tests come back clean, the likelihood of their children getting a genetic disease is low. Illnesses don't tend to pop up out of nowhere. Besides, women who have kids when they are over the age of 40 have an equal risk of birth defects as two siblings having children together. Should be ban women from having kids if they're over 40?

Not to mention that people who AREN'T related can "contaminate" the gene pool just as much as anyone else. Maybe ALL people should be required by law to get genetic testing before they have kids, and if something bad pops up, they shouldn't be allowed to have sex with people that have incompatible genetic profiles. A perfect world where we're all matched up based on our genetics, and people with crappy genetics are sterilized, left in the dust and... wait, I think I've heard of that sort of logic before. Hmm. Wonder where. :p Point being, humans don't breed based on survival of the fittest. People with horrible genetic problems are allowed to have children. We ALL have genetic problems. Any wrong combination can produce children with birth defects. Especially considering a lot of people are on medication, smoke, drink, etc... and those can cause birth defects as well.

The God argument doesn't really work. Not everyone believes in God, and even with those who do, no everyone follows the Bible. Jesus is supposed to be the guy to follow, and I don't remember HIM caring about incest.

Incest occurs in the natural world. If it weren't for incest, there wouldn't be any cheetahs left. They are almost all, if not ALL, inbred. Yes, sometimes there are instinctual things that keep animals from mating with relatives, but it happens with domestic animals frequently, as well as lions, probably wolves, wild horses I believe... fish... birds... I mean, you put a pair of finches in a cage, and pretty soon you have five finches and then you have ten, and the only way for that to happen is inbreeding.

"Weird" isn't a good standard of measure. People in general are weird.

Banning something for subjective reasoning is, to be frank, silly. I don't like Christianity that much. Should we ban that? I hate celery. Does that mean celery needs to go? Not at all, because MY preferences and MY opinions and MY life shouldn't affect the rest of the world in a negative way. Allowing consensual incest between adults doesn't affect the rest of the world in a negative way; banning it does.

... I am also appalled at the comments of "why are we discussing this, most people KNOW it's wrong" as if that statement is proven, objective and absolute. Sorry, but "right" and "wrong" are not carved in stone. They are subjective ideas, and to shrug off a topic as if OBVIOUSLY one opinion is the truth and MOST people should understand that is just deplorable. We cannot, as a society and species, condemn an entire group of people or an entire action as "wrong" just because that is the personal opinion some people hold.

Right and wrong should be seen as the subjective terms there are, and people should strive to place situations within an ethical framework depending on the circumstances, the people and facts involved. This way, situations are judged not by an overarching, limited and, in my opinion, narrow-minded set of what is or isn't right... but as a case-by-case system based on secular, compassionate and knowledgeable system that keeps the well-being of all in mind. That, to me, is common sense.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
yes, that is correct.

It is the biology that is the main issue.

Because of the risk of genetic problems with any children produced, yes?

and , yes, I agree - this thread ought to have been put to bed a long time ago.

Yeah, given that you can't come up with anything more than your "It's icky" arguments and the easily controlled problem with genetic birth defects.

here you are just being facetious.

and here as well.

3 times in fact!

Nah, just pointing out the stupidity of your arguments.
 

rageoftyrael

Veritas
You just said it was okay that a stepfather and a daughter could have sex. There is no biological issue there, is there? But, nonetheless, all other supposed issues still apply. So, as i just said, you really don't seem to care about the supposed immorality of incest. All you seem to really care about is the biological aspect, and we've given a bunch of reasons why the biological aspect is not significant. If the biological aspect, aka possible deformations, defects, diseases, can be by passed altogether, and it can, then you really shouldn't have a problem, should you? You have made repeated statements that imply this. Am i wrong?
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
Because of the risk of genetic problems with any children produced, yes?

we've already been round the block with that one.

because it would be impossible to force people to use condoms , a blanket ban on incest is needed to try and prevent births - it's the only way.

or do you advocate for enforced sterilisation of incestuous couples?

that would be a far more draconian measure.
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
If the biological aspect, aka possible deformations, defects, diseases, can be by passed altogether, and it can, then you really shouldn't have a problem, should you?

the same question for you then.

how can we 'by pass' these problems?

how can we make sure no birth defects are caused here?
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
we've already been round the block with that one.

because it would be impossible to force people to use condoms , a blanket ban on incest is needed to try and prevent births - it's the only way.

or do you advocate for enforced sterilisation of incestuous couples?

that would be a far more draconian measure.

There are genetic conditions that pose much greater risks to children who are conceived by those carrying the conditions. Since such people can't be FORCED to wear condoms, shouldn't we just ban them from having sex?

You seem to have the attitude that since there's a chance they might have sex without contraception, then they shouldn't be allowed to have sex at all. This seems quite draconian to me!
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
the same question for you then.

how can we 'by pass' these problems?

how can we make sure no birth defects are caused here?

It's not up to him to specify how this is to be done. He is proposing a hypothetical. If the genetic concerns could be completely eliminated, would you have a problem with it?

And please don't ignore the question and instead dwell on the issue of how it is to be done. If I asked you if you'd go through Star trek's transporter if you had the chance, you would start whinging about how teleportation violates the laws of physics, would you?
 

McBell

Unbound
we've already been round the block with that one.

because it would be impossible to force people to use condoms , a blanket ban on incest is needed to try and prevent births - it's the only way.

or do you advocate for enforced sterilisation of incestuous couples?

that would be a far more draconian measure.
Ok, but even abstinence is not 100% effective at preventing pregnancy.
 

rageoftyrael

Veritas
You may or may not have noticed that i said they could be bypassed, what that means is through proper use of contraceptions and such, the likelihood of having a child is fairly low. Men can get vasectomy's and women can get their tubes cut, seared, and tied. Of course, if surgery is a bit much, there are several different types of birth control. The point of my earlier message had more to do with the fact that you don't seem to care about the situation morally, you just seem to have some kind of weird issue with the potential issues of a child, and an obvious ick reaction. We've given multiple ways how pregnancy can be avoided, and since you yourself voided all of your other arguments, what else is left?
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
There are genetic conditions that pose much greater risks to children who are conceived by those carrying the conditions. Since such people can't be FORCED to wear condoms, shouldn't we just ban them from having sex?

that may be the case but that has nothing to do with incest.

Those situations can be looked at separately.

Many things are similar in this way, must we ban alcohol because drugs are illegal?

You have just used a logical fallacy here, one of the things you tend to accuse me of.

so go and have a think for a while, then come back with something more substantial.
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
It's not up to him to specify how this is to be done. He is proposing a hypothetical. If the genetic concerns could be completely eliminated, would you have a problem with it?

And please don't ignore the question and instead dwell on the issue of how it is to be done. If I asked you if you'd go through Star trek's transporter if you had the chance, you would start whinging about how teleportation violates the laws of physics, would you?

let's not bother going into fantasy land here, as that really will go nowhere!

but, yes, incest is still wrong even if you used a condom.

Why is it that most people do not want to jump into bed with their relatives?

it is all down to instinct - we are programmed to not want this due to survival of the species type mechanisms.
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
You may or may not have noticed that i said they could be bypassed, what that means is through proper use of contraceptions and such, the likelihood of having a child is fairly low

the point is that even if you were to not produce a child, incest is still wrong.

The genetic abnormalities issue is Nature's way of telling us that this is wrong.

We ignore nature at our peril.

Look at cases such as Aids, presumably originating through people fooling around with monkeys - Nature did not plan for that - thus we now have millions of deaths.

Why would we have these kinds of abnormal babies if incest was meant to be?
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
but, yes, incest is still wrong even if you used a condom.

Why is it that most people do not want to jump into bed with their relatives?

it is all down to instinct - we are programmed to not want this due to survival of the species type mechanisms.

Right, so we are agreed that the chance of pregnancy can be eliminated, and that removes your protest that incest shouldn't be done because it can lead to birth defects. For what it's worth, I agree with you. Incest that creates a child isn't a good idea, because it increases the risk of genetic problems in that child. And that would be unfair for the child.

So, what other arguments have you got against it? (Bearing in mind that we have reached a conclusion regarding the genetic problems that we both agree on.)

The fact that most people aren't inclined to do it? So what? Are you suggesting that the majority get to dictate things? If the majority don't like X, then X is wrong? If the majority think it's unfair for a woman to decide not to have children because she wants to concentrate on her career, is that wrong too?

Like you said, most people aren't interested in this. So even if the ban on incest is lifted, it's not like all of a sudden we're going to be seeing everyone doing it. So I think you're being very alarmist here. making incest legal is not going to threaten the survival of the species.
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
think of people in Hicksville though.

they may need to be told its wrong by the law.

Also some people are just plain perverted so they need to be legislated against.

and you still haven't said how we will prevent incestuous births but merely dismissed it with your hypothetical reasoning.

The practicalities of prevention are indeed important otherwise this is not a real life debate.
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
just checking to see whether the liberals had allowed this abomination to be legalised yet where I'm from - thankfully no, not yet anyway!

(from Wikipedia)
UNITED KINGDOM
Incest is illegal in England and Wales. It is defined as sex, whether heterosexual or homosexual, between a person and their parent, grandparent, child, grandchild, sibling, half-sibling, uncle, aunt, nephew or niece. It is punishable with up to 14 years imprisonment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed
 

Zoe Doidge

Basically a Goddess
just checking to see whether the liberals had allowed this abomination to be legalised yet where I'm from - thankfully no, not yet anyway!

(from Wikipedia)

Yeah it turns out we're focusing on gay marriage at the moment. There's simply more people who want that right now, so start with baby steps. Also it's simple enough for an incestuously minded couple to ignore the law and do it anyways, they just have to be careful.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
think of people in Hicksville though.

they may need to be told its wrong by the law.

Also some people are just plain perverted so they need to be legislated against.

and you still haven't said how we will prevent incestuous births but merely dismissed it with your hypothetical reasoning.

The practicalities of prevention are indeed important otherwise this is not a real life debate.

Then you must also have an issue with ANY sex that can create a child with a risk of birth defects.

Now, what I am asking you is this: Assuming that it were possible to ensure that incestuous sex never resulted in a pregnancy, would you still have a problem with such sex? If so, why?

When you come in here and start saying that since we can't 100% make sure that pregnancy will never happen, and your resulting refusal to leave that particular issue alone is exactly what I was talking about back in post 628.
 
Top