Should Israel be annihilated?

[Godobeyer]

It's called being pragmatic. He had to present himself a certain way to the public otherwise they never would've fell for it. But the higher ranked Nazis knew all along that Christianity is incompatible with Nazism and Hitler actually hated Christianity and said nasty things about it in private. Many of the high-ranked Nazis were into the occult and neo-Paganism.
Word for Word/The Case Against the Nazis - How Hitler's Forces Planned To Destroy German Christianity - NYTimes.com




Either way, Muslims are not innocent in that whole affair.

Bosnian Muslim Waffen SS:

There was no Christian regiment of the SS.

Um , seems Hilter want to destroy Judiasm and Christianity !!!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Um , seems Hilter want to destroy Judiasm and Christianity !!!

Very much so. He admired Islam, though. Go figure.

 

[Godobeyer]

Very much so. He admired Islam, though. Go figure.

that's does not clean that he was Christian .

but i am curious if this true ;
He admired Islam about what ? and hate Judaism andf Christainity in what ?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

@Godobeyer,

Have you had the opportunity to read the Wikipedia article on Haj Amin al-Husseini, particularly the section titled Ties with the Axis Powers during World War II?

 

[Typist]

If one believes that the Middle East will be embroiled in fundamental political and religious conflicts for centuries to come, just as happened in Europe....

It then becomes clear that a Jewish state is a great idea, but placing such a state smack dab in the middle of the most dangerous neighborhood on Earth was a really bad idea, though understandable.

The whole point of a Jewish state was to establish a true stable secure peace for the Jewish people. This is an excellent goal, which will never be achieved in the Middle East, at least not for centuries to come.

Thus, highly intelligent rational hard nosed realistic Israelis, of which there are very many, might be asking themselves whether sacrificing the peace and security of many coming generations of their children is a price worth paying to own a small piece of land in the middle of the most dangerous ghetto on Earth.

What's more important? The children? Or the land?

I know that both are deeply and dearly cherished, but in the end it comes down to a choice between the two.

 

[Jumi]

Smart_guy for president!

 

[Jumi]

There was no Christian regiment of the SS.

You had to be a Catholic, Protestant or otherwise believer in God to be in the SS.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

that's does not clean that he was Christian .
but i am curious if this true ;
He admired Islam about what ? and hate Judaism andf Christainity in what ?

Hitler wasn't a Christian.

Hitler hated Jewish people because he believed they were destroying Germany. He didn't like Christianity because he viewed it as weak and too contaminated with Jewish influences.

You had to be a Catholic, Protestant or otherwise believer in God to be in the SS.

That was only because they viewed atheism as a form of egoism that exalts the individual at the expense of the collective. But they were also hostile to Christianity.
Ideology of the SS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Jumi]

Hitler hated Jewish people because he believed they were destroying Germany. He didn't like Christianity because he viewed it as weak and too contaminated with Jewish influences.

He wanted a "pure" version that in his mind even Luther would approve.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

He wanted a "pure" version that in his mind even Luther would approve.

No, he didn't. Have a look at this: Word for Word/The Case Against the Nazis - How Hitler's Forces Planned To Destroy German Christianity - NYTimes.com

 

[Jumi]

I have seen that article before because someone here said I should read her book, but didn't know where you could get it.

Based on the articles from her that I read trying to figure out what she was saying I didn't agree with her views. To simplify the Nazis aims to be anti-Christianity is not my cup of tea, looking at what really happened there instead of quotes taken in whatever context.

 

[Brickjectivity]

What's more important? The children? Or the land?

I don't think this reflects the nature of the problems at hand, and what is important is the values those children learn and the way people live in the land. If its a land where everybody lives to do what they're told out of a fear of death then that is very unfortunate. If everybody gets to decide how they are going to live their short lives and not just cave in when other people don't like it, then that is worth some risk.

If one believes that the Middle East will be embroiled in fundamental political and religious conflicts for centuries to come, just as happened in Europe....

Its a different set of people, a different time and a different situation. 'Embroiled' sounds a lot like 'Flame broiled', but its not as permanent as it seems. Boiling water can cool down. Middle easterners are people with a tradition of haggling. Have you ever heard people haggle? They always talk big, like every little thing is a big deal, but they only do it to get a little extra. We are seeing some of the biggest haggling ever. It can go on and on.

Thus, highly intelligent rational hard nosed realistic Israelis, of which there are very many, might be asking themselves whether sacrificing the peace and security of many coming generations of their children is a price worth paying to own a small piece of land in the middle of the most dangerous ghetto on Earth.

This does not reflect familiarity with the situation. We are seeing a lot of fallout and bad feelings and also misinformation left over from previous wars. Optimistically, future generations will increasingly be at peace with their neighbours.

The whole point of a Jewish state was to establish a true stable secure peace for the Jewish people. This is an excellent goal, which will never be achieved in the Middle East, at least not for centuries to come.

That makes the UN sound angelic. What happened is a series of events. In 19th century protestants came to desire to facilitate the return of Jesus Christ and reasoned that one event needed for that to happen was a rebirth of Israel as a country. They (we) trumped up the cause of zionism although religious Jews weren't interested at the time. Any return that seemed artificial was (to them) unacceptable. The middle east being mostly desert there was not much secular interest, either; however in response to increasing antisemitism between WWI and WWII some of the secular Jewish class became curious about founding a new state, somewhere, their goal being to save lives and their way of life. They started talking about it, but not much happened until after WWII. After WWII there was suddenly enough political energy to get a lot of Jews to found a country. Many become very interested, almost as interested as the protestant Christians. Politically speaking, a lot of refugees were dumped in the middle east. It was considered win-win for everybody. It was the political way of saying 'Sorry about WWII! No hard feelings OK?' The history of most of the immigrants who have moved their since is such that they probably question whether there is anywhere else to go.

 

[Typist]

Hitler would have gone after any social organization which could not be brought under his complete control. Power was his religion. It was just a tactical question of in what order others should be made to kneel before him.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I have seen that article before because someone here said I should read her book, but didn't know where you could get it.

Based on the articles from her that I read trying to figure out what she was saying I didn't agree with her views. To simplify the Nazis aims to be anti-Christianity is not my cup of tea, looking at what really happened there instead of quotes taken in whatever context.

If you don't think that Nazism is anti-Christian, then you simply don't understand Nazi ideology. The article has nothing to do with the writer's views, it's just detailing the findings found in thousands of documents from the Third Reich and evidence from the Nuremberg Trials.

 

[Jumi]

Have you read her book?

 

[Typist]

If everybody gets to decide how they are going to live their short lives and not just cave in when other people don't like it, then that is worth some risk.

My point is that there are simply too few Israelis for them to decide what their future will be in the Middle East. We could take the smartest people on Earth, which could perhaps be the Jews, and place them on the side of a volcano, and their smarts become irrelevant.

The issue is not the argument between the Jews and their neighbors as the story is usually told.

The issue is that the entire Middle East is in the midst of a huge fundamental political and religious crisis, which has little to do with Israel. It's the same fundamental political and religious contest which took centuries to resolve in Europe. Democrats vs. fascists, and one main branch of the local religion vs. the other main branch.

Point being, NOBODY in the Middle East is going to enjoy peace, security and freedom for a long time to come and there's nothing anybody, even the brilliant Israelis, nor America with all her power, can do about it.

This does not reflect familiarity with the situation. We are seeing a lot of fallout and bad feelings and also misinformation left over from previous wars. Optimistically, future generations will increasingly be at peace with their neighbours.

Apologies, but you simply don't understand that the peace and security situation has little to do with Israel, except that Israel is sadly right in the middle of the storm geographically.

That makes the UN sound angelic.

I didn't even mention the UN, and don't find them relevant. It was the Jews who created Israel, for the specific purpose of building a safe place for Jews, in response to centuries of oppression in Europe.

Regrettably, they happened to pick the worst real estate on Earth in which to build a safe and secure place for Jews. It was a very understandable mistake, but a mistake nonetheless.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Have you read her book?

I have no idea what book you're talking about. I never mentioned any book.

 

[Jumi]

The article is based on a book and research by law student Julie Seltzer Mandel. You can find in google many articles on this same topic with about the same content, using her name.

Her views seem unusual and coming from just a student of law, I wouldn't immediately trust them any more than a strange wikipedia article.

 

[gsa]

My point is that there are simply too few Israelis for them to decide what their future will be in the Middle East. We could take the smartest people on Earth, which could perhaps be the Jews, and place them on the side of a volcano, and their smarts become irrelevant.

The issue is not the argument between the Jews and their neighbors as the story is usually told.

The issue is that the entire Middle East is in the midst of a huge fundamental political and religious crisis, which has little to do with Israel. It's the same fundamental political and religious contest which took centuries to resolve in Europe. Democrats vs. fascists, and one main branch of the local religion vs. the other main branch.

Point being, NOBODY in the Middle East is going to enjoy peace, security and freedom for a long time to come and there's nothing anybody, even the brilliant Israelis, nor America with all her power, can do about it.



Apologies, but you simply don't understand that the peace and security situation has little to do with Israel, except that Israel is sadly right in the middle of the storm geographically.



I didn't even mention the UN, and don't find them relevant. It was the Jews who created Israel, for the specific purpose of building a safe place for Jews, in response to centuries of oppression in Europe.

Regrettably, they happened to pick the worst real estate on Earth in which to build a safe and secure place for Jews. It was a very understandable mistake, but a mistake nonetheless.

The crisis has a lot to do with Israel, given that it is the dominant regional military power and the occupation is a cause for Islamists everywhere. Israel and the U.S. Also undermined secular Arab and Persian groups for their own purposes whole propping up secular dictatorships that cannot ban islam which became the preferred revolutionary outlet.

All that being said, we shouldn't overstate Israel's influence either. the regional governments are their own worst enemies, and developments post-1979 demonstrate the limits of US policy as well.

I agree that the European reformation era and revolutionary era are the appropriate parallels. It seems clear to me that we need to support actual dissidents who emerge daily, as opposed to reactionary pretenders like the Brotherhood or other Islamist groups or the dictatorships, while insisting that the Israelis settle the Palestinian feud by recognizing a workable state. At this point we've just become their enablers, like a lover giving drugs to an addict. A solution now will be less painful than the apartheid struggle that the Israeli right seems to prefer.

 

[Typist]

The crisis has a lot to do with Israel, given that it is the dominant regional military power and the occupation is a cause for Islamists everywhere.

Apologies but this is old news. The contest now is primarily between Persians and Arabs, and within the Arab community. Israel can not control this rising tide of crisis. As example, Syrian refuges are now spreading the realm of crisis to neighboring fragile countries, and Israel can do nothing about any of it. Yemen, Libya, Iraq, Syria failed states, with more to come. If Israel were to simply vanish tomorrow, all these conflicts would continue, and continue to escalate.

All that being said, we shouldn't overstate Israel's influence either. the regional governments are their own worst enemies, and developments post-1979 demonstrate the limits of US policy as well.

That's all I'm saying. The crisis can not be managed by the West, or by Israel, or anybody else, thus it's an inherently insecure place to be for anybody, including Israelis.

I agree that the European reformation era and revolutionary era are the appropriate parallels.

Then you will understand that no matter what anybody does, this is going to go on for a long time.

Thus, imho, Israelis face a choice between real peace and security for their children, or a particular piece of land in a really bad neighborhood. I am simply asking, which is more important to them? I'm just asking, it's their decision to make.