Should Muslims acknowledge the Jews sovereignty over Israel?

[Jayhawker Soule]

Ouch!

 

[Sleeppy]

So you're saying that when God gave the mark of the covenant to Abraham and all his offspring, he was either lying or he'd have some direct, observable benefit that Jews throughout history wouldn't be able to show? What was the outline of the Israelites in prior times?



What discipline have they been "enslaved" to exactly? The Torah?



What promise isn't being kept? Israel back in 1000-0 A.D. was just as tulmutuous and unstable as it was today if not more so.




Most Jews in Israel have very little regard for the religious aspect of Zionism.



What promises are those exactly?



Have you even read them? They are lamenting the fact that the Jews have gone astray from the Law and that is the reason for their punishments. As well as pointing out the punishments coming up for the evil Nations opposing them.

God cannot lie. And yet, the truths of the covenant have skipped over those circumcised, as easily as those uncircumcised.

Jeremiah 31:32
Not like the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day of My laying hold on their hand, To bring them out of the land of Egypt, In that they made void My covenant, And I ruled over them -- an affirmation of Jehovah.

Isaiah 24:5
And the land hath been defiled under its inhabitants, Because they have transgressed laws, They have changed a statute, They have made void a covenant age-during.

Now, I don't need to say much. All is evident. So, I'll ask you; what are the promises of the covenant? And how are they made void?


There are many disciplines you've inherited from the wisdom of your fathers, circumcision being the signature of Abraham. But, as the prophets have told you, circumcision may or may not maintain the necessary efficiency to uphold the truths of the covenant.

Another discipline each of you have inherited to some degree, is observance of Torah and prophets. Unlike circumcision, in this regard, you all are divided as to who, what, how, and when. There is very little efficiency to be seen at every step, from reading and hearing to interpreting and doing.

You are hindered at every angle, focusing on doing the signs and disciplines, but falling short of the actual goals.

 

[Sleeppy]

Jer.33

[20] "Thus says the LORD: If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night will not come at their appointed time,
[21] then also my covenant with David my servant may be broken, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and my covenant with the Levitical priests my ministers.
[25] Thus says the LORD: If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the ordinances of heaven and earth,
Jer.34

[8] The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, after King Zedeki'ah had made a covenant with all the people in Jerusalem to make a proclamation of liberty to them,
[10] And they obeyed, all the princes and all the people who had entered into the covenant that every one would set free his slave, male or female, so that they would not be enslaved again; they obeyed and set them free.
[13] "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel: I made a covenant with your fathers when I brought them out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage, saying,
[15] You recently repented and did what was right in my eyes by proclaiming liberty, each to his neighbor, and you made a covenant before me in the house which is called by my name;
[18] And the men who transgressed my covenant and did not keep the terms of the covenant which they made before me, I will make like the calf which they cut in two and passed between its parts --
Jer.50

[5] They shall ask the way to Zion, with faces turned toward it, saying, `Come, let us join ourselves to the LORD in an everlasting covenant which will never be forgotten.'
Ezek.16

[8] "When I passed by you again and looked upon you, behold, you were at the age for love; and I spread my skirt over you, and covered your nakedness: yea, I plighted my troth to you and entered into a covenant with you, says the Lord GOD, and you became mine.
[59] "Yea, thus says the Lord GOD: I will deal with you as you have done, who have despised the oath in breaking the covenant,
[60] yet I will remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish with you an everlasting covenant.
[61] Then you will remember your ways, and be ashamed when I take your sisters, both your elder and your younger, and give them to you as daughters, but not on account of the covenant with you.
[62] I will establish my covenant with you, and you shall know that I am the LORD,
Ezek.17

[13] And he took one of the seed royal and made a covenant with him, putting him under oath. (The chief men of the land he had taken away,
[14] that the kingdom might be humble and not lift itself up, and that by keeping his covenant it might stand.)
[15] But he rebelled against him by sending ambassadors to Egypt, that they might give him horses and a large army. Will he succeed? Can a man escape who does such things? Can he break the covenant and yet escape?
[16] As I live, says the Lord GOD, surely in the place where the king dwells who made him king, whose oath he despised, and whose covenant with him he broke, in Babylon he shall die.
[18] Because he despised the oath and broke the covenant, because he gave his hand and yet did all these things, he shall not escape.
[19] Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: As I live, surely my oath which he despised, and my covenant which he broke, I will requite upon his head.
Ezek.34

[25] "I will make with them a covenant of peace and banish wild beasts from the land, so that they may dwell securely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods.
Ezek.37

[26] I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will bless them and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Ezek.44

[7] in admitting foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and flesh, to be in my sanctuary, profaning it, when you offer to me my food, the fat and the blood. You have broken my covenant, in addition to all your abominations.
Dan.9

[4] I prayed to the LORD my God and made confession, saying, "O Lord, the great and terrible God, who keepest covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments,
[27] And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."
Dan.11

[22] Armies shall be utterly swept away before him and broken, and the prince of the covenant also.
[28] And he shall return to his land with great substance, but his heart shall be set against the holy covenant. And he shall work his will, and return to his own land.
[30] For ships of Kittim shall come against him, and he shall be afraid and withdraw, and shall turn back and be enraged and take action against the holy covenant. He shall turn back and give heed to those who forsake the holy covenant.
[32] He shall seduce with flattery those who violate the covenant; but the people who know their God shall stand firm and take action.
Hos.2

[18] And I will make for you a covenant on that day with the beasts of the field, the birds of the air, and the creeping things of the ground; and I will abolish the bow, the sword, and war from the land; and I will make you lie down in safety.
Hos.6

[7] But at Adam they transgressed the covenant;
there they dealt faithlessly with me.
Hos.8

[1] Set the trumpet to your lips, for a vulture is over the house of the LORD,
because they have broken my covenant,
and transgressed my law.
Hos.10

[4] They utter mere words;
with empty oaths they make covenants;
so judgment springs up like poisonous weeds
in the furrows of the field.
Amos.1

[9] Thus says the LORD:
"For three transgressions of Tyre,
and for four, I will not revoke the punishment;
because they delivered up a whole people to Edom,
and did not remember the covenant of brotherhood.
Zech.9

[11] As for you also, because of the blood of my covenant with you,
I will set your captives free from the waterless pit.
Zech.11

[10] And I took my staff Grace, and I broke it, annulling the covenant which I had made with all the peoples.
Mal.2

[4] So shall you know that I have sent this command to you, that my covenant with Levi may hold, says the LORD of hosts.
[5] My covenant with him was a covenant of life and peace, and I gave them to him, that he might fear; and he feared me, he stood in awe of my name.
[8] But you have turned aside from the way; you have caused many to stumble by your instruction; you have corrupted the covenant of Levi, says the LORD of hosts,
[10] Have we not all one father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers?
[14] You ask, "Why does he not?" Because the LORD was witness to the covenant between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.
Mal.3

[1] "Behold, I send my messenger to prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the LORD of hosts.

-- Bible, Revised Standard Version

Perfect. As we can see, the covenant which has not and cannot be broken, is put over all things. But, the covenant given to Abraham is continually made void by his seed.

But, if you believe you can condense everything you've copied here into an observable and unbroken truth, so be it. However, you cannot. You observe things inefficient and contrary to time and logic. Zealous, and still seen in vanity.

 

[Shermana]

Should these claims really be surprising? Are they not what the OT prophesizes? How else is the news supposed to get around unless people who have experienced it tell others?

Joel 2

28"And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. 29Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days."

Let me know when you hear of such prophets.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Let me know when you hear of such prophets.

I've had several dreams that I was pretty sure were from the Lord. They stand out from regular dreams in that they're remarkable in their clarity and they're devoid of the weirdness that often is a part of normal dreams. You also tend to remember every part of them as opposed to normal dreams which are usually forgotten or remembered in fragments.They usually speak about some circumstance very relevant in one's life at the particular time.

 

[Shermana]

I've had several dreams that I was pretty sure were from the Lord. They stand out from regular dreams in that they're remarkable in their clarity and they're devoid of the weirdness that often is a part of normal dreams. You also tend to remember every part of them as opposed to normal dreams which are usually forgotten or remembered in fragments.They usually speak about some circumstance very relevant in one's life at the particular time.

So have I. The details of which I will not publicly discuss though. So now what?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

So have I. The details of which I will not publicly discuss though. So now what?

Then you've already heard of such prophets and know the prophecy is being realized. Why then did you ask me to tell you what you obviously already know?

 

[Shermana]

Then you've already heard of such prophets and know the prophecy is being realized. Why then did you ask me to tell you what you obviously already know?

I know what a prophetic dream is supposed to be like, and yours from your description is most certainly not it. Everyone's dreams are meaningful, but one where a big booming voice speaks to you is another story. And I will say no more on that.

 

[metis]

Perfect. As we can see, the covenant which has not and cannot be broken, is put over all things. But, the covenant given to Abraham is continually made void by his seed.

OK, now that you have well established that you believe God lies, I would suggest that you therefore simply cannot trust anything He says. The Abrahamic Covenant deals with only the Jewish people, although others can follow the teachings if they so wish, and many during Jesus' time many did just that, and they were called "God-fearers". God can make other covenants with other peoples, such as the one he made with Noah, for example.

Therefore, if you believe He made an additional covenant with Jesus and his followers, that's hypothetically possible, but if you believe the Abrahamic Covenant is void, then I certainly wouldn't trust that god because he goes back on his promises.

But, if you believe you can condense everything you've copied here into an observable and unbroken truth, so be it. However, you cannot. You observe things inefficient and contrary to time and logic. Zealous, and still seen in vanity.

I honestly don't know what you're saying with the above. Maybe you can clarify?

 

[Sleeppy]

OK, now that you have well established that you believe God lies, I would suggest that you therefore simply cannot trust anything He says. The Abrahamic Covenant deals with only the Jewish people, although others can follow the teachings if they so wish, and many during Jesus' time many did just that, and they were called "God-fearers". God can make other covenants with other peoples, such as the one he made with Noah, for example.

Therefore, if you believe He made an additional covenant with Jesus and his followers, that's hypothetically possible, but if you believe the Abrahamic Covenant is void, then I certainly wouldn't trust that god because he goes back on his promises.



I honestly don't know what you're saying with the above. Maybe you can clarify?

Jeremiah 31:27-32 & Isaiah 24:5

I haven't said much of anything passed what the prophets have already said.

God cannot lie. And contrary to the perceptions of certain prophets, neither does He repent. God has no ignorance.